An argument against the goomba stomp; a PVE player's perspective

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T13:49:19.871Z

Dzonatas:

Why should enc builds get all the fun?

I wonder if it’s possible to make the double jump conditional. like, if encumbrance is maxed, double jump is unable to be performed. Similar to something like sorcery. That way you can only jump on someone if you get lucky to be high enough above them to drop on them. Then it won’t slow down encumbrance builds. I mean, how often must you truly NEED to use the double jump in everyday gaming tasks?

CodeMage · 2023-05-16T14:56:31.389Z

jmk1999:

I wonder if it’s possible to make the double jump conditional. like, if encumbrance is maxed, double jump is unable to be performed.

I remember coming up with that in one of these discussions, and there were PVP players who complained it wouldn’t be enough, because you can hang off a ceiling and drop on someone.

I thought it was weird how the goal posts moved, but I don’t play on PVP servers, so I can’t do more than toss in an occasional idea and see what other think

Dzonatas · 2023-05-16T15:11:09.089Z

jmk1999:

if encumbrance is maxed, double jump is unable to be performed

Why not make it so if the player is running then double jump can’t be performed? That shouldn’t affect the legit climbers. (oh the rhetoric though)

Lock chests on pvec will not be the same as pvp, so I don’t get the attempted comparison.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:13:19.340Z

CodeMage:

because you can hang off a ceiling and drop on someone

Oh come on… lol… that’s just stupid. Yeah, you “can” do that… but in PvP on a regular basis? Yeah, I don’t think so. I’d say if you’re infiltrating a base and get the drop on someone, sure, whatever. That’s the point. The mechanic has been in the game since it was released and you could do that before all these complaints. And offline players “in their sleep” are gonna be raided regardless by people that do that. The issues everyone is having is with the fact that they can just run around and dodge, then double jump high enough to stomp on someone. People need to stop trying to move the posts until the goal is in another place entirely. That was never the argument.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:17:39.052Z

That doesn’t solve anything a lot of people take a running jump for extra momentum. You’d basically take that away from agility builds. The issue is with the PvP community itself exploiting a mechanic, then complaining about a solution that won’t limit agility, nor encumbrance, by just removing the double jump capability while over encumbered. Hanging from a ceiling and dropping on someone is perfectly legit. It’s called using the environment to your advantage. In other words: strategy. It doesn’t work with every case and it’s not useable in live pvp battles very easily.

SirDaveWolf · 2023-05-16T15:20:29.594Z

jmk1999:

Yeah, you “can” do that… but in PvP on a regular basis? Yeah, I don’t think so.

What you think is not what happens in reality.

Just implement what @Xevyr has already implemented as a mod and the problem is solved and the case closed.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:23:05.980Z

I added to my reply. That person’s tactics are perfectly legit. Who followed? The other player. If you know what they’re gonna do, why humor them and follow? They can’t do anything to you if you don’t engage them. How about maybe standing back and firing arrows? Dead in seconds and they drop all their loot. Solved.

CodeMage · 2023-05-16T15:27:24.357Z

jmk1999:

Oh come on… lol… that’s just stupid. Yeah, you “can” do that… but in PvP on a regular basis? Yeah, I don’t think so.

I went and looked up that discussion. @Ulyssi explained the remaining concerns nicely:

Time to fix the last one shot mechanic?

While these solutions would completely solve the issue of full heath/damage goomba stomp builds out in the field, I’m not sure they address the problems related to goomba stomp builds and siege - which is the kind of PvP behavior I think @SirDaveWolf is alluding to. Defending on a goomba stomp build is zero risk with maximum reward. Chain respawning and filling your pockets with rocks with a chance to one shot and scoop your attackers raid materials is just poor balance. Throwing your ass off your castle walls is more efficient than using siege cauldrons… SMH.

As I said back then, it’s a good point, but it does move the goal posts from “goomba stomp is the build everyone uses for combat” to “goomba stomp is a specialized strategy used for defending from raids”.

@SirDaveWolf proposed to change the mechanic from one-shot kill to damage over time, and that sounds good too.

I don’t really have any good opinions on raiding and raid defense. It all looks like a giant dumpster fire to me, and I don’t think goomba stomping is the only or even the worst problem, but that’s just my inexpert opinion.

SirDaveWolf · 2023-05-16T15:29:26.773Z

That’s just the typical PvE player theorycraft talking. I am getting tired of that.

Was it obvious in this particular video? Perhaps.

Will it be obvious in other situations? Most likely not.

Oneshot is oneshot or in other words: bad game design.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:29:48.183Z

CodeMage:

@SirDaveWolf proposed to change the mechanic from one-shot kill to damage over time, and that sounds good too.

This in conjunction would work. No double jumps and damage over time.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:31:26.805Z

Perhaps, but as @CodeMage said, either the problem is with live combat or with specific strategies, those that are asking for balancing need to get their terms straight. The vast majority are complaining about live combat. Regardless, taking out the instant kill removes ANOTHER trophy from the achievements list. Completionists will go insane.

CodeMage · 2023-05-16T15:34:45.898Z

SirDaveWolf:

Oneshot is oneshot or in other words: bad game design.

Pretty much, yes. It’s acceptable game design when it’s properly restricted, e.g. as something that happens when the time runs out in a time-limited dungeon, or as something that’s consensual between players who want to get a certain achievement.

When it’s not restricted properly, like in this case, it’s sloppy game design.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T15:53:01.863Z

Ok… here’s my suggestion…

Remove double jump while over encumbered
Limit damage taken by dropping on someone while over encumbered
Apply a debuff of some sort like sunder, cripple, or even a quick stun lock

Ok, my reasoning behind the last one is because making the tactic viable is in their best interest. If damage is to be lessened, especially against vitality builds that may have high armor, there needs to be some happy medium. By implementing a debuff, it will allow a vigilant player to regain their momentum after dropping to go in for a quick attack with a weapon. It should be a very short debuff time so it doesn’t allow the player to climb up and do it again over and over… unless the other player is stupid and standing by a wall or inside a 1 wall high building (in which case, lol… tough).

Xevyr · 2023-05-16T16:32:59.834Z

jmk1999:

Remove double jump while over encumbered

No thank you… again… just because YOU personally don’t use something does not mean others don’t…
As I explained it in many other posts, double-jump is actually the most useful in PvE when overencumbered… You can’t use a horse to travel… and it really helps traversing terrain while on a farming run for example.

jmk1999:

Limit damage taken by dropping on someone while over encumbered

While limiting damage would be possible fairly easily, the damage over time version would actually be more difficult to implement and much more room for error than what I’ve been suggesting.

Just check out the thread I made on it a while back no reason to argue about this yet again… I made that thread because pretty much everything that could be said about the topic has been said… and it seemed like the simplest and most acceptable compromise that leaves everything intact and is very easy to implement.

It even has way less room for error… people seem to think that it somehow requires complex calculations to judge the falling time or something… No… this is a videogame… we’re in a 3 dimensional space… there are coordinates vertically too… so you can set the exact distance people need to fall before killing someone.

Ulyssi · 2023-05-16T18:10:32.661Z

CodeMage:

As I said back then, it’s a good point, but it does move the goal posts from “goomba stomp is the build everyone uses for combat” to “goomba stomp is a specialized strategy used for defending from raids”.

jmk1999:

Perhaps, but as @CodeMage said, either the problem is with live combat or with specific strategies, those that are asking for balancing need to get their terms straight. The vast majority are complaining about live combat.

The foundational issue with goomba builds, in my opinion, is the abusable nature of it as a high value proposition. Unlike @SirDaveWolf I don’t necessarily think one shots are bad for the game, and offered pushback in the cases of both the lance and the katana when they were discussed here. So long as acceptable counterplay exists I think one shots can be a fun and dynamic PvP option, especially in the current resource forgiving environment (I might feel differently in the 1x gathering no khitan camp environment of the past). Trading rocks for riches and gambling on the unpredictability of chaotic combat and ping is detrimental to the “fun” of CE PVP.

Using the strategy in raid defense, I think, best illustrates the one sidedness of the value proposition. It still exists in “live” combat, but there are more variables at play that we could argue provide some degree (an acceptable level or not) of counter play.

As the meta has developed and agility has grown in popularity so too has the use of goomba builds in “live” combat. I also think the increase in battle pyramids, encouraged by the function of the Last Stand Perk, encourages goomba (by functioning as a mobile version of the raid defense strategy referred to above). Just layers of observation and speculation on my end, worth less than you paid for it. Either way it seems like the gap between “most cost effective raid defense strategy” and “most cost effective live combat strategy” is narrowing. As we should expect it to. The only difference between a fight in the field and a fight in your base is logistics, as people find ways to solve the logistics issues the two should approach parity.

Dzonatas · 2023-05-16T18:14:19.916Z

Xevyr:

jmk1999:

Remove double jump while over encumbered

No thank you… again… just because YOU…

I remember when I made suggestions such as this with a mod. I couldn’t believe the number of players that turned into snowflakes over it. Of course, I left it alone.

Mine was simply to limit the velocity of a character by a mod. It’s past discussion.

I see how goomba stomp could be disabled by a mod, but no one would install it.

jmk1999 · 2023-05-16T18:53:32.850Z

I think it comes down to people wanting it gone, but afraid to commit to another build. Who knows? Getting tired of seeing the constant complaints about it every other day. You can have certain restrictions you set upon yourself, but others won’t be so kind. However, every time a nerf gets brought up, it becomes an issue. We don’t want to nerf, we want to solve the problems. If people keep shooting down even the least restrictive solution like velocity speed, it’s never gonna be fixed. It’s times like this I’m glad I don’t PvP. I just want a solution that won’t inhibit honest players’ ability to enjoy the game (PvP or PvE).

Dzonatas · 2023-05-16T19:19:07.558Z

jmk1999:

I think it comes down to people wanting it gone, but afraid to commit to another build.

I agree. We certainly don’t want how WoW managed the different stances.

The goomba stomp just seems unprofessional for a low fantasy game. I’ve read the threads here about it.

biggcane55 · 2023-05-16T20:56:22.391Z

And honestly a very minial perk in pve. I havent tested, but is it faster to double jump home than sprinting with beast perk? if so, then that is an exploit, like og jhebal claws and dagger back flip were for moving while encumbered without the beast perk. It does no damage to npcs. And finally, no area of the map is offlimits if you don’t have it. The only consistant use is to kill another player.

stelagel · 2023-05-16T21:07:26.470Z

I believe it’s hilarious and game breaking to die one shot in pvp, no matter where this is coming from. One shots on pvp should not exist in any form! When i was playing in this mode,some thralls were so powerful that could literally one shot you no matter your atributes build and your armor set. So now, after having this “bad” experience, i am happy that i am finally stronger against thralls.

However, the reason i stopped pvp was not the godly thralls, not even close, i stopped because pvp in this game is extremely demanding, at least it was, because now things are way easier, but i believe it’s still demanding. Pvp in this game is almost a full time job, so no thank you, i am full of it. I enjoy the calmness of pve with open doors, decorated houses and “safe” careless travels around the map.

Pvp balance affects pve, many times, but here’s a thing that will not affect pve AT ALL! Pve players care not about how much damage the elephant tower does as long as the “nerf” wont touch pve again. So my suggestion is to leave all the gaming mechanics as they are and allow Goomba to do maximum 3/4 damage of the hp of the players.
I believe this way the Goomba lovers won’t be disappointed (because apparently they are many) and the Goomba haters will get a fighting chance.

One last thing that must be mentioned is that the game mechanics already give you a chance not to be one shoted.
But pvp players wont sacrifice their efficiency for this perk and personally, i don’t blame them.

Whatever is their decision and action i will respect, but in this situation pve don’t need to feel anything of these changes… I hope!