I went and looked up that discussion. @Ulyssi explained the remaining concerns nicely:
As I said back then, it’s a good point, but it does move the goal posts from “goomba stomp is the build everyone uses for combat” to “goomba stomp is a specialized strategy used for defending from raids”.
@SirDaveWolf proposed to change the mechanic from one-shot kill to damage over time, and that sounds good too.
I don’t really have any good opinions on raiding and raid defense. It all looks like a giant dumpster fire to me, and I don’t think goomba stomping is the only or even the worst problem, but that’s just my inexpert opinion.
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That’s just the typical PvE player theorycraft talking. I am getting tired of that.
Was it obvious in this particular video? Perhaps.
Will it be obvious in other situations? Most likely not.
Oneshot is oneshot or in other words: bad game design.
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This in conjunction would work. No double jumps and damage over time.
Perhaps, but as @CodeMage said, either the problem is with live combat or with specific strategies, those that are asking for balancing need to get their terms straight. The vast majority are complaining about live combat. Regardless, taking out the instant kill removes ANOTHER trophy from the achievements list. Completionists will go insane.
Pretty much, yes. It’s acceptable game design when it’s properly restricted, e.g. as something that happens when the time runs out in a time-limited dungeon, or as something that’s consensual between players who want to get a certain achievement.
When it’s not restricted properly, like in this case, it’s sloppy game design.
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Ok… here’s my suggestion…
- Remove double jump while over encumbered
- Limit damage taken by dropping on someone while over encumbered
- Apply a debuff of some sort like sunder, cripple, or even a quick stun lock
Ok, my reasoning behind the last one is because making the tactic viable is in their best interest. If damage is to be lessened, especially against vitality builds that may have high armor, there needs to be some happy medium. By implementing a debuff, it will allow a vigilant player to regain their momentum after dropping to go in for a quick attack with a weapon. It should be a very short debuff time so it doesn’t allow the player to climb up and do it again over and over… unless the other player is stupid and standing by a wall or inside a 1 wall high building (in which case, lol… tough).
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Xevyr
27
No thank you… again… just because YOU personally don’t use something does not mean others don’t…
As I explained it in many other posts, double-jump is actually the most useful in PvE when overencumbered… You can’t use a horse to travel… and it really helps traversing terrain while on a farming run for example.
While limiting damage would be possible fairly easily, the damage over time version would actually be more difficult to implement and much more room for error than what I’ve been suggesting.
Just check out the thread I made on it a while back 
no reason to argue about this yet again… I made that thread because pretty much everything that could be said about the topic has been said… and it seemed like the simplest and most acceptable compromise that leaves everything intact and is very easy to implement.
It even has way less room for error… people seem to think that it somehow requires complex calculations to judge the falling time or something… No… 
this is a videogame… we’re in a 3 dimensional space… there are coordinates vertically too… so you can set the exact distance people need to fall before killing someone.
Ulyssi
28
The foundational issue with goomba builds, in my opinion, is the abusable nature of it as a high value proposition. Unlike @SirDaveWolf I don’t necessarily think one shots are bad for the game, and offered pushback in the cases of both the lance and the katana when they were discussed here. So long as acceptable counterplay exists I think one shots can be a fun and dynamic PvP option, especially in the current resource forgiving environment (I might feel differently in the 1x gathering no khitan camp environment of the past). Trading rocks for riches and gambling on the unpredictability of chaotic combat and ping is detrimental to the “fun” of CE PVP.
Using the strategy in raid defense, I think, best illustrates the one sidedness of the value proposition. It still exists in “live” combat, but there are more variables at play that we could argue provide some degree (an acceptable level or not) of counter play.
As the meta has developed and agility has grown in popularity so too has the use of goomba builds in “live” combat. I also think the increase in battle pyramids, encouraged by the function of the Last Stand Perk, encourages goomba (by functioning as a mobile version of the raid defense strategy referred to above). Just layers of observation and speculation on my end, worth less than you paid for it. Either way it seems like the gap between “most cost effective raid defense strategy” and “most cost effective live combat strategy” is narrowing. As we should expect it to. The only difference between a fight in the field and a fight in your base is logistics, as people find ways to solve the logistics issues the two should approach parity.
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I remember when I made suggestions such as this with a mod. I couldn’t believe the number of players that turned into snowflakes over it. Of course, I left it alone.
Mine was simply to limit the velocity of a character by a mod. It’s past discussion.
I see how goomba stomp could be disabled by a mod, but no one would install it.
I think it comes down to people wanting it gone, but afraid to commit to another build. Who knows? Getting tired of seeing the constant complaints about it every other day. You can have certain restrictions you set upon yourself, but others won’t be so kind. However, every time a nerf gets brought up, it becomes an issue. We don’t want to nerf, we want to solve the problems. If people keep shooting down even the least restrictive solution like velocity speed, it’s never gonna be fixed. It’s times like this I’m glad I don’t PvP. I just want a solution that won’t inhibit honest players’ ability to enjoy the game (PvP or PvE).
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I agree. We certainly don’t want how WoW managed the different stances.
The goomba stomp just seems unprofessional for a low fantasy game. I’ve read the threads here about it.
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And honestly a very minial perk in pve. I havent tested, but is it faster to double jump home than sprinting with beast perk? if so, then that is an exploit, like og jhebal claws and dagger back flip were for moving while encumbered without the beast perk. It does no damage to npcs. And finally, no area of the map is offlimits if you don’t have it. The only consistant use is to kill another player.
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I believe it’s hilarious and game breaking to die one shot in pvp, no matter where this is coming from. One shots on pvp should not exist in any form! When i was playing in this mode,some thralls were so powerful that could literally one shot you no matter your atributes build and your armor set. So now, after having this “bad” experience, i am happy that i am finally stronger against thralls.
However, the reason i stopped pvp was not the godly thralls, not even close, i stopped because pvp in this game is extremely demanding, at least it was, because now things are way easier, but i believe it’s still demanding. Pvp in this game is almost a full time job, so no thank you, i am full of it. I enjoy the calmness of pve with open doors, decorated houses and “safe” careless travels around the map.
Pvp balance affects pve, many times, but here’s a thing that will not affect pve AT ALL! Pve players care not about how much damage the elephant tower does as long as the “nerf” wont touch pve again. So my suggestion is to leave all the gaming mechanics as they are and allow Goomba to do maximum 3/4 damage of the hp of the players.
I believe this way the Goomba lovers won’t be disappointed (because apparently they are many) and the Goomba haters will get a fighting chance.
One last thing that must be mentioned is that the game mechanics already give you a chance not to be one shoted.
But pvp players wont sacrifice their efficiency for this perk and personally, i don’t blame them.
Whatever is their decision and action i will respect, but in this situation pve don’t need to feel anything of these changes… I hope!
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It comes down to suggestions that affect PvE actually. For example, the suggestions that call for limiting agility and expertise at the same time. If someone wants to have tons of agility and encumbrance at the same time, they should be allowed. It’s the perks players are exploiting that cause the issue, not the stats themselves. However, yeah, I think having a lower damage output that doesn’t one shot players is ideal. It should still be high damage, thereby making it worthwhile to surprise other players (or npcs in PvE), but not a full blow one hit kill.
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Is it really THAT big of a deal if the achievement is gone?
Like honestly. Are people going to lose everything if Tower of the Elephant isn’t a thing?
It baffles me that some have seemed more concerned with it than the affect that it is having an entire game mode. Goomba has always been a thing but wasn’t as easy to achieve since 3.0.
It’s been almost 9 months of entire clans doing goomba, having at least 1 on clan doing goomba or random nakeds preying on the unsuspecting in the wild.
It’s cheap. It’s dumb. It has no skill and no risk. It is an exploitative game mechanic afaiac.
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Yeah, to some it is. You know how often someone asks about the journey step one now. Regardless, if they lessen the damage, it’s still possible to kill someone. It just takes a bit more effort. So, that shouldn’t affect it.
If its switched to a toggle so people can set damage from goomba to 0 (like pve) and it was disabled on funcom pvp servers, problem solved. People could still get the achievement and it could be disabled for those who find it silly… if I was FC tho, make it kill both players; still able to get the achievement and give it consequences to heavily mitigate it as an attack. My objections are on the silliness front. Its from a bygone age of the game, with lots of changes that happened between then and now, and its time imo for it to go. I’m not really in favor of anything more complicated because I’d rather FC spend as much time as possible not addressing this kind of functionality.
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There were pretty heavy consequences originally with the previous attribute system. You needed specific armors and spec in order to achieve it.
I’m not sure what else that could be done to address it other than removing the ability and achievement.
I don’t agree with removing double jump or beast and I think most versatile players would agree it’s not the answer.
But simply removing the achievement and the functionality behind it TO get that achievement? Easiest, less impactful way that will only make a very few amount of neurotic completionists angry. Many other games change achievements, why can’t Conan?
Yeah I’m of the mind that the achievement is easy enough to address. It’s certainly not a reason to keep a mechanic that has no place within the total game concept, especially if people are using what appears to be a gimmick play regularly. That to me says something is out of whack. I cast the original post in terms of fireballs and lightning bolts because Dennis made a big deal about how sorcery was formulated around being something that fit within the CE universe. They spent tons of time and effort making sure it was compatible with the story and wasn’t a direct attack method. If sorcery went thru so many hoops and struggles to make work, it is a bit extra silly that something like goomba survives to this day. It cheapens the game imo. There is a place for the tongue in cheek easter egg and reference to something that is an inside joke, but it ceases to be an easter egg if it’s something put in people’s faces when they play one of the big three game modes. The one shot aspect of it doesn’t faze me and doesn’t inform my opinion at all; it’s the fact that in a game of sword and sorcery, people find utility in carrying around a ton of rock and bouncing on people’s heads like Mario.
I have issues with double jump as well, but I think the same utility of double jump can be preserved without actually removing it, but that’s neither here nor there. I’d get rid of it too personally, but that’s a tougher nut to crack because of the “what do you do with the displaced perk”. That’s why I’d just have a double tap of the key give you the same range and height of double jump, and maybe lessen fall damage by the amount you could extend it before, just so the unnatural anti-gravity was removed. Again tho, I’m a fan of incrementalism when addressing a problem. Throwing double jump into the mix opens the issue to having downstream problems and potentially bugs and/or more exploits. That’s why I’d call enough done just to set the damage to 0 like PVE.
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