Any appetite for player-based Combat Advisory Panel?

[DanQuixote]

@CodeMage

@DanQuixote

I would support this - provided that this Combat Advisory Panel is absolutely limited to only being allowed to discuss combat matters that apply exclusively to PVP/PVE-C. Any overlap into matters that affect the rest of us should be free to be discussed by the rest of us.

My personal opinion – propped up by experience, but still just an opinion – is that there’s virtually no proposal that can be made strictly for PVP without affecting PVE, or vice versa.

Very much the point I was trying to hint at.

@CodeMage

That said, my answer to your question would be that I’m certain having PVE-C players on the CAP would help protect the interests of both PVE and PVE-C players

While I, respectfully, must disagree. PVE-C is not PVE. There may be even greater overlap than the already established overlap between PVP and PVE, but there remain key differences. Neither is the same as Singleplayer. None of these are the same as RP (RP isn’t even the same as RP - there are huge variations within just that one category). This comes down to much the same issue as I see being a problem with TeleTesselator’s proposal about the devs streaming/videoing themselves playing - we all play differently, seek different things from the game, enjoy different aspects. Even within these ‘monolithic groups’ there are huge differences of opinion - just witness the never-ending debates regarding offline raiding in PVP. Croms_Faithful and I both play singleplayer - but that does not mean we necessarily enjoy or do the same things, nor (aside from a knee-jerk defense of singleplayer) do we agree on every issue.

@Croms_Faithful

You know Barnes my initial reaction to this thread was to be intrigued and inquisitive, but that soon gave way to cynicism and suspicion.

I am sorry to say but this just sounds like another ‘PvP only thread’ under the guise of a different name, such as a ‘temporary refund adjustment’ or the ‘ministry of love’, where by you are taking one thing and calling it something else entirely to increase it desirability…or mask its undesirability. Because right or wrong, it just sounds to me like a way for a select group of individuals to form a good ol boys club of sorts and perpetually hand ‘rebalance’ requests at Funcom, amplify the its audibility and social status, and circumvent PvE and Singleplayer input (*on that note please do not forget about Singleplayer mode; this game has 4 modes of play, not 3). Although perhaps you can convince me that this is merely a musunderstanding.

Yes. This is precisely the concern that I have, and have tried as gently as possible to highlight. I do not for one moment believe that it is the intent - but I do believe that it would very quickly become the effect.

@Barnes

In that thread there is a purposeful, tactical attempt to obfuscate, derail and act with obstreperousness. The clear goal is always to try and kill to topic. Period.

DO NOT go down this road. You do NOT want to see where it leads. Let me be clear - I am not trying to be humorous, and I am not going to continue being gentle on this topic.

@CodeMage

@Barnes

This topic is about a COMBAT Advisory Group. There is no other specialty that I know of, other than PvP that requires COMBAT. This includes PvE-C.

I disagree. Not out of obstreperousness, but because I think you’re overlooking something important: combat is also part of PVE. Fighting players and their followers is PVP, but fighting NPCs – be it humans, monsters, animals, or bosses – is PVE.

When the duration of the bleeding debuff was shortened, it was done to improve PVP, but at the cost of making PVE somewhat worse. Again, this is not an accusation, it’s an illustration of why it’s important to actively include PVE players in discussions of CAP proposals.

This is the essential problem. Even the most moderate and caring of PVP players - which I consider you (Barnes) (and others in this thread to be) - frequently play this card. It is the exact elitism that @CodeMage @Croms_Faithful and I are trying to warn against. You literally just placed the opinion of PVP above the opinions of others, with a suggestion that we don’t have to engage in combat. You might as well be saying ‘don’t play the game if you don’t like it the way I do’. I know you don’t intend it that way. But if we, who spend a lot of our time trying to be considerate of the feelings of other play modes, cannot even get past these simple issues without it appearing to be creating a hierarchy of opinion - then what chance is there for any of this?

@Barnes

My definition of Combat is human vs human. I was brought to this game for Combat. Player against Player, as it says there on Steam. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but many PvP players have left the game and the Forum. The reason, in part, is no one seems to have a clear concept of what Combat is.

The Combat Advisory Panel will cover such topics as raid, melee, archery, siege, bombs, speed caching, force multipliers, fireteams and more. These are parts of the art of Combat.

So your definition is literally ‘PVP uber alles’. And yet you question why there might be some resistance.
As for PVPers leaving the game - so too do players from all other game modes, constantly. And as CodeMage expressed, often precisely because the changes made ‘to PVP’ had too negative an impact on their (our) enjoyment of the game.

I tried quite carefully to suggest that there were positives to this idea. I tried quite carefully to point out as gently as possible some of the dangers. Literally the first person to put themselves forward for the CAP, and the first person you supported and seconded for it, was exactly one of the people I was most concerned about the idea of putting in a position like this. I like biggcane - I think he has a great deal of knowledge and regularly makes useful and insightful comments. He also wholeheartedly believes and regularly comments that Funcom has a hierarchy of game modes and, essentially, ‘doesn’t care about PVP’. This is not bias out of some desire to be unpleasant - this is simply bias from seeing the world a different way. You yourself reacted to the 2.8 patchnotes by describing it as a PVE update that doesn’t do much for PVP. It might not do what you want for PVP, but it sure as hell does plenty - even ignoring all the exploits it mentions fixing (hint - it’s not PVE and singleplayer that has exploit problems) - sure we got emotes for thralls, but we lost key building techniques. Yet another element of the game sacrificed to the never satisfied maw of PVP.

Beyond this, both you and biggcane have pointed out many times (you’ve even done so in this thread with your denial that anything other than PVP even counts as combat) that ‘PVE combat is too easy’. For people with thousands of hours of experience maybe so. But we ‘no lifers’ as some like to describe us are far from being the only players of this game, or even truly representative of the player base as a whole. We are ‘extremists’ of a sort - the mere fact we spend time on these forums is evidence enough for that. To have a group of people who believe combat is ‘too easy’ (and yes, I do mean ‘combat’, no matter that you would like to redefine that as something only done in PVP) influencing Funcom’s decisions in any way would inevitably push the game towards harder combat, and eliminate any number of more casual players.

To take a single example - when the big Thrall nerf happened, it damn nearly removed me from the playerbase entirely - it damn nearly took away my enjoyment of the game entirely. I was not ready to deal with the things I would have to fight now that my followers were half as useful as they had been before. My skills at the game had not reached a level where I could take over that extra part of what was required. For a long time I could not see any way in which I would ever be able to face another boss fight, or even set foot into one of the larger villages. In one sweep, it appeared half the game content had been taken from me. In the end, I pushed through - did the stuff I was able to do, until gradually my skills matured and I became able to do those things under the new paradigm. Many (arguably most) will not do that - they do not want a game that becomes a job they have to train for - they just want to play. And if combat gets made progressively harder, they will just go elsewhere, having been driven out of the game by these changes.

So I am truly sorry - I think you intend this suggestion for the good of the game (not just PVP) - but you are human too and failing to even notice your own biases on these issues, and the way in which those biases would result in negative impacts for everyone outside of PVP. All that you have managed to convince me of is that this idea would be a disaster, and I have to oppose it. I cannot accept the idea of a group of PVP players having any special influence over any aspect of the game I play. With every patch that is released so-called ‘PVP changes’ take something else away, make some other aspect of the game slower, more grindy and less enjoyable. And without fail there are always prominent comments proclaiming that ‘the patch did nothing for PVP’ ‘PVP gets ignored again’ - as if pieces of my game experience had not been carved away every single time. I will not accede to having that situation made worse, and that is the only result that I can see this proposal leading to.

[Croms_Faithful]

@Barnes

@Croms_Faithful

You know Barnes my initial reaction to this thread was to be intrigued and inquisitive, but that soon gave way to cynicism and suspicion.

What a shock.

@CodeMage

Please tell me these are tongue in cheek.

@Barnes

Yeah I was being dramatic. It was supposed to be sensational enough, like an “oh dear me.” For comic relief effect.

Haha its ok @Barnes and @CodeMage, I take a friends word for it, and I derive no offence whatsover from it regardless. Nil. And even if your intentions were otherwise, which I accept that they were not, your observation was done with stand up levels of excellence. And lets face it it was accurate as a parody. No sarcasm. Most members would know that you are generally among the most kind, diplomatic and helpful of the Asuras, whereas without meaning to be, I am more the grumpy firebrand, or the loose canon of the bunch without meaning to be. I guess I’m more like my chosen deity, but to be honest I think its more the inner metalhead leaking through the filter. Perhaps I have lacked tact in raising my concerns, or become confused in my interpretation. If that is the case then apologies to a man who has been most helpful to me here on the forum.

But in giving ground I cannot relinquish my right to a point of view on these matters if they concern my mode. And…I must also be true to myself and those who I give voice to, in expressing my concerns and those raised by others. Namely that PvE and Singleplayer modes should also have both voice and equitable input on matters concerning ANY aspect of combat that will directly impact upon them, and where PvP changes will directly impact upon them. And if that should encompass changes or proposed changes to the weapons animations, damage values, debuffs, etc, then I feel that PvE and Singleplayers must be regarded as equals in voice and granted the same opportunities to express them. I am happy to disect some specific examples as to why in regards to several weapons if you wish?

[Narelle]

That didn’t take long. Not sure if the intention is to have the thread locked or to validate the concerns some are having.

[biggcane55]

If the concerns are pvp, they should be validated. If not I don’t care.

I mean if I am being accused of pvp bias, I might as well own it. Dont wanna make people liars do we?

[Barnes]

@DanQuixote

DO NOT go down this road. You do NOT want to see where it leads. Let me be clear - I am not trying to be humorous, and I am not going to continue being gentle on this topic.

I don’t respond well to threats.

@DanQuixote

You literally just placed the opinion of PVP above the opinions of others, with a suggestion that we don’t have to engage in combat. You might as well be saying ‘don’t play the game if you don’t like it the way I do’. I know you don’t intend it that way.

No I didn’t.

@DanQuixote

So your definition is literally ‘PVP uber alles’. And yet you question why there might be some resistance.
As for PVPers leaving the game - so too do players from all other game modes, constantly. And as CodeMage expressed, often precisely because the changes made ‘to PVP’ had too negative an impact on their (our) enjoyment of the game.

I did not say that.

@DanQuixote

I will not accede to having that situation made worse, and that is the only result that I can see this proposal leading to.

Good then stay out of it.

@biggcane55

Well, spoiler every pve mechanic added since EA has negatively impacted pvp.

Every god damned “pretty pony” statue. Every stinkin’ time.

@Narelle

That didn’t take long. Not sure if the intention is to have the thread locked or to validate the concerns some are having.

Hmm y’all chummed the water pretty good last night, though.

[biggcane55]

I love how pve players like to pvp on forums. Thought pve players were about inclusion and anti conflict…And then when a pvp player decides to go at them, we are the nasties.

Anyway, 8 am still 9n board for the CAP. Maybe us PvP players can finally get s9me mechanics that suit our play style better.

[Barnes]

This thread has been made into a PDF, and will be reviewed by me at suitable intervals for the next several years. When I find myself welling up with kumbaya, I’ll read it and remember the pack of PvE that rallied via Discord to keep Conan in his lane.

Shows the game well.

[Ulyssi]

Huh, there’s a lot to unpack here it seems.

PVP as a mode interacts with all of the systems available and as a result has to place a greater emphasis on balance. There is also a sense of urgency (risk of loss) that exists in PVP that doesn’t elsewhere. It doesn’t surprise me therefore that PVPers are more likely to call for changes and with greater intensity. This will, I think, always rub up against PVE players who have less (relative) need and urgency for balance changes.

That being said, there is no “correct” way to play the game. There are official PVP, PVE-C, and PVE servers, so all should be considered equally (I’d umbrella single player under PVE - debate for another time maybe). There can be a hierarchy of complexity of need (leaning towards PVP), but the moment we conflate that with a hierarchy of value (of opinion) is the moment where discussion here necessarily devolves into tribalism.

I think that the proposal for a CAP (feel free to correct me) stems from the growing sentiment that FC is no longer in touch with the needs of the PVP portion of the community. Stealth removal, server transfers, TOS enforcement, and build strategy removal are recent examples that suggest (at least to me) that FC lacks fundamental understanding of how PVPers play the game OR have a different expectation of the game that they won’t simply relay to us. CAP would go a long way in providing an authoritative input to FC on how the playerbase views PVP needs, if that is something they are lacking - and I think that has some merit.

It is fair to point out that FC shouldn’t overly prioritize the needs/desires of PVP players. I think it’s fair to feel like FC isn’t sufficiently evaluating the complexity of PVP balance.
—————————————-

Ugh, this is such a terrible way to discuss such nuances…

—————————————

Further and separate point. While I can respect cautioning against giving too much authority to a theoretical CAP, I think the diversity argument can be taken too far. Any panel can be deemed not diverse enough to sufficiently represent if you granularize the population it represents enough. Which is why I wanted to clarify with @CodeMage earlier the differences and possible problems with PVE-C representing PVE. I think reasonable calls for diversity of opinion are good, but too many can be self defeating.

[Barnes]

@Ulyssi

I think that the proposal for a CAP (feel free to correct me) stems from the growing sentiment that FC is no longer in touch with the needs of the PVP portion of the community. Stealth removal, server transfers, TOS enforcement, and build strategy removal are recent examples that suggest (at least to me) that FC lacks fundamental understanding of how PVPers play the game OR have a different expectation of the game that they won’t simply relay to us.

It truly stems from my own business practices we’ve been forced to apply during the Pandemic. My agility has relied less on intuition and more on data, and in 2021 we were able to do “ok.” With less stress.

It seemed to me, then, that with fewer PvP players on the Forum, desperately few on Official Servers and a growing diaspora on Steam – well it seemed right to meditate on the issue. And believe me, with servers a ghost town I’ve had countless hours of solo play to think about it.

My intent was to model Sony’s behavior, and apply as much data to our friends at Funcom as possible. Thank you, @Ulyssi you have calmed me.

[CodeMage]

Screw it, if you wanna do that, why not have a go at it.

@biggcane55

See lifeblood spear, all dlc, horses etc.

Ah, yes. PVE players asked for Lifeblood Spear. I remember when the forum was flooded with threads from rabid PVE players demanding Lifeblood Spear until Funcom could no longer ignore us. Likewise for that special water skin on Siptah. Oh, and we definitely spammed the whole place with demands to have DLCs include armor that gives us special stats, and building pieces with hit boxes that allow placing explosive jars on them, and placeables with way too much health, because that is what we care about. We’re especially concerned about the health points of our placeables. Not to mention detailed proposals on how to make mounts the pinnacle of unbalanced combat. Yeah, all our fault.

@biggcane55

And when pvp speaks up, we are immediately accused of “nerfer”.

Because the vast majority of you only ever ask for “nerfs”. But when people ask you to define what the problem is, you can’t even agree whether the problem is really bad.

@biggcane55

I love how pve players like to pvp on forums.

Oh, yeah, trying to have a reasonable discussion where people actually communicate and exchange rational arguments in a civil fashion, that’s “PVP on forums”. As opposed to slinging schoolyard insults about “spastic monkeys”, macho-posturing about how PVP players are the übermenschen and PVE players are kindergateners, and “come at me bro” chest-thumping. That’s not “forum PVP”.

I guess we weren’t contrite and humble enough when we offered our opinions on this thread. We should’ve come in hat-in-hand and said something along the lines of “please, sir, can I have a voice”.

“PVP is where true gamers go”, yeah, right. I know a few “true gamers” who could beat me in any game you could ever imagine that requires any degree of skill, and none of them have ever felt the need to act like a pack of middle-school bullies because of that. In fact, most of them were nice, reasonable people like @Ulyssi.

I’m done with these forums. Y’all can go back to your circle-jerk.

@Barnes

This thread has been made into a PDF, and will be reviewed by me at suitable intervals for the next several years. When I find myself welling up with kumbaya, I’ll read it and remember the pack of PvE that rallied via Discord to keep Conan in his lane.

Yeah, just like that.

[biggcane55]

@Ulyssi you have calmed me as well.

I still feel many don’t undrrstand how much pve we are forced to play on pvp servers.
When a server is dead, we have 2 options on that server, be toxic (destroy noobs day1 or offline raid refreshers) or play pve and build up loot caches. I will never take the toxic approach, so I play ALOT of pve (so much so, I munched enough frags to have all base game recipes unlocked in 2 weeks on a pvp server). What many pvpers want is to play more pvp, and not have to choose to be toxic or a pve-er.

[helium3]

Late to the party as always.

To clarify, you’re proposing that a select group of players chosen via some method will have “offline” discussions about a pre-selected topic and that a specific individual will then transcribe a summary of that discussion here for general discussion by forum goers?

[Barnes]

Nosir.

I’m proposing that a group of volunteers, who meet the qualifications describes roughly herein, play the game as normal and make advisory notes. They will not be forced to participate here as individuals, although that would be encouraged.

The proposed group of players would transparently be named here and elsewhere for discussion, vetting and other purposes. The provisional Group would then go about collecting priorities.

Each of these actions would be written down for discussion and proffered here for everyone to digest and disagree about. Any elements of action would then be put to a vote. Successful actions would then be offered to Funcom.

[Barnes]

@Ashlumtam

I like PVP bc it’s just more of a …dangerous game? I like the player vs player potential but in practice the raiding ends up being bittersweet. It’s great to overcome challenges with your clan in pvp, and the feeling of mastering a server and becoming the undisputed alpha clan is something else. BUT but but ultimately I’m an artist and I prefer building little villages. Which I do! But only after beating back the raiders and establishing clan dominance.

That “head on a swivel” feeling. My Apple Watch used to think I was exercising, while in reality I was just logging on, peering through my fingers.

[biggcane55]

Side note…there is a 3rd option, leave to play on another server until home servers comes alive again.

But here is the thing, that would like getting wiped, or even better then just wipe a pvp server if player pop doesn’t go above x. Save me the trouble of trying to match a timezone, ping and populated server.

[biggcane55]

And I like replying to myself. Cause I am the only 9ne I can have a civil debate with:)

[biggcane55]

Yeah this guy gets it.

[Barnes]

@biggcane55

But here is the thing, that would like getting wiped, or even better then just wipe a pvp server if player pop doesn’t go above x. Save me the trouble of trying to match a timezone, ping and populated server.

A lot of my compatriots do that. It feels irresponsible to me, to take up so much land, just to wait for something to emerge “one day.” I’ve been on this server for 8 months, probably time for me to move on.

I hope you’ve gained as much knowledge as I have through this thread. It’s pretty clear to me we’re the red-headed stepkids Funcom forgot in the trunk on the way to the drive-in movie. And the rest of the kids are happy about it.

[biggcane55]

@Barnes

we’re the red-headed stepkids Funcom forgot in the trunk on the way to the drive-in movie. And the rest of the kids are happy about it.

That would explain why we aren’t very civil:) Knew I had a screw loose for a reason.

[Barnes]

Everything you have to do to scramble for survival
the day of launch/wipe and the days thereafter
sometimes bubbling back up for two months or more…
I call this process Contention. It’s healthy, and the most fun you’ll have.

Those are the fighting times, the PvP times. Jockeying for power. At the time I might’ve been the spoiler solo. Just so many great moments brought on by the invitation of all those fresh and juicy PvP servers. All my friends talk about it the same way, but occasionally I figure out they’re talking about Lost Souls. That was another great Power Grab, a guy with hours on his hands could get practically anything from the meteorites.

I think first order of business would be the creation of Havok Servers (regular wipes) and go from there.

Thanks for the input, everybody. It’s been weird.