As an Archer I am a little sad

To be a top tier archer, you need to make sacrifice in other places mainly in the grit and vitality tree. Means you will have stamina issues compared to other player with some stamina traits. So if you run, people will catch you.

The other problem with a archer is the friendly fire. If you are with a group of people involved in a skirmish, you will need to be able to melee also.

Absolutely.

Although, it is rather difficult getting this message across to some. Perhaps something to do with wearing all that heavy armor. It impairs sensory perception in general and the concussions and possibly even series of mini-strokes sustained from standing around and mindlessly pounding each other tends to render cognition impotent.

4 Likes

The right button attack is the sniper bow, you can get better aiming for a head shot with right mouse button. I know I do.

Players archers in heavy armor for accuracy))) 2 hitting a spear and they are dead))))) It’s fun)

I know, the build is op

If you’re going to advocate for ranged builds being able to gib players from a long distance, there would be no point in playing melee characters. Because they will never be able to get to you before you kill them without there being a swarm of them coming at you so you can’t kill them all before one gets to you.

But if ranged was that powerful, your buddies would also just do ranged.

Which means that no one will want to do melee, it will just be age of conan acting like a world war 2 game with bows acting as rifles and orbs acting as hand grenades where everyone shoots each other to death.

If this were a modern or sci fi game, I’d absolutely be for it. But its not and if the devs were to make ranged that powerful, where age of conan was call of duty re skinned for conan, that would be the end of the game’s interest for a lot of people.

Let me pose this question to you. Why shouldn’t accuracy be equal point for point to strength for the purpose of spending attribute points? As it stands right now, accuracy is the game’s ‘I gotcha’ stat. Meaning if someone who didn’t know that it is NOT currently equal, spends points there. They are wasted.

I ran tests at the midgame. Around 40 in New Asgarath using Grit Armor with 30 in Accuracy with Razor Arrows and an Ancient Bow. About the tier you want to be using in that area.

I could clear the town relatively easily And you might think… oh well in that case it isn’t too bad.

Then I switched weapons to a Cimmerian War Axe and did the same thing. Again… you’d say, oh well they’re the same tier. It works then! But… that’s the only step I took. I just switched weapons. Attributes remained the same.

0 Strength Cimmerian War Axe = 30 Accuracy Ancient Bow w/ Razor Arrows

Lets put that into perspective, before perks are added:

+0% Damage from Strength = +60% damage from Accuracy

That doesn’t seem wrong yet? Add in the perks and it starts getting stupid. That 60% is actually 70% due to the perks. But had I put those points into strength, using a weapon that was equal to 30 accuracy with 0 strength, it would have done 60% more damage base, with 25% on added effects, and 10% on light attacks.

So why would anyone who knows this would EVER consider putting points into Accuracy? The answer is, they don’t.

The ones that do are ignorant and are getting caught in the game’s attribute sink stat. Its the game’s equivalent of a dead end in a maze. Yep you just went the wrong way and have to back track. Once the player figures out they misspent their attributes, they’ll likely also misspent feat points too.

That’s even before the waste of time that goes into the material cost of those arrows.

I don’t mean to beat you up on this. Its not you that this is directed towards so don’t take this long post personally. The devs stated they want bows to be a bit of a sidearm in their livestream. But lets be honest, Accuracy ought to be equal to Strength in terms of attribute points spent.

Because as it stands now. They could remove the stat entirely, give us the 100% bonus damage 50 Accuracy would give by upping the damage of bows and arrows by that amount. And well bows and arrows would become the ‘sidearm’ they were ‘designed’. They’d be used for pulling and not much else.

The benefit of such a change is all players would know where ranged weapons stand and would not be tricked into thinking using them would be equal to melee weapons and they wouldn’t be tricked spending points into Accuracy.

Though some poor sod is going to spend a few feats that way still.

6 Likes

I guess you mean southern npc thralls.
I can oneshot them as well, but northern ones?
Even with very high investment I could only go up to 60% HP on one heavy headshot.
(40 str, 50 accu, only flawless stuff, warpaint+1 pot - are pots meant to be stackable?)

Then again, a light headshot dealt about 40% damage to new asagarth thralls.
->
Which basically means that spamming first two light attacks is more dps than heavy shots…
I guess this is due to how combat was revamped. As a lot of heavy melee attacks hit multiple time on one attack, obviously the bows heavy attack is really weak compared to heavy melee attacks.
(i.e. I hit with daggers 2 times on most (or all?) heavy attacks, once when striking forwards with the right dagger which gets followed by the left one slicing backwards -> that is one click; one attack.)
Also I think heavy attacks are more expensive on bow than on daggers.
So if we archers keep using heavy attacks, we nerf ourselves by quite a bit…

@auticus I would love to see a situation where archers will have to be able to handle their bow.
That being said…
The mass will always go with the most OP weapon.
Thus the task is to make none/every weapon the most OP weapon - then it’s completely up to the players which weapon to use.

Like with mitrean spear.
Lots and tons of players seem to have used it, once they got their hands on it.

Then again I think PvE-Players tend to use whatever weapon is most fun to them.

As I still got that weird thing in my mind, that hammers would deal the most damage per hit, though I am not sure if that still applies. Also that is only damage per hit, not damage per second.

Same dps on each weapon could be archieved by forcing players to continue a chain, wether they continue their light chain or switch to heavy. At least I think that could help a lot.
(Then light attack chain would not deal more dps than “spamming” heavy shots with a bow. … And would solve any else issue similar to this as well.)

Also depending on what your enemy is armored and what kind of tier he uses, he can be a twoshot even if he is lvl 60, having 30+ vitality. (In case of light armor.)
But that is a neat example of balancing. As the only weaknesses of heavy armor are their weight and their dodge being worse, I guess most people anticipate heavy armor becoming the absolute meta for melee.
That being said, I would love if stamina costs would take type of armor into consideration as well. Heavy armor would drain more stamina than medium/light armors, thus there is another price to pay. While light armors will have the least stamina costs which is payed for with vulnerability.
I guess most melees will go for that 20 enc perk, due to its cripple-reduction. (If that one is working.) …
Which then again takes the impact of the weight of heavy armor.

I highly doubt that.
“Fakearchery” will still exist. (=only using bow when exploiting bad AI)
Because if one is lazy and got a ton of branches, why not craft those set arrows and get your archer thralls bow, to go and farm some dragons or else dangerous creatures. Some people really like spending hours to farm/kill something if they can just wipe their ram during that. (In this case, ram would be their brain, which then processes nothing - or stays focused on some stream on second screen.)

2 Likes

Thats why I stated I think that the damage should come up a little bit. I just don’t think that the bow should do as much damage overall as a melee weapon, otherwise if ranged damage is the same as melee damage, you’ve painted yourself into a situation where ranged will always be preferred because you can do as much damage from a distance as someone that is specialized in melee has to run up on someone to do.

This same issue comes up in tabletop wargames as well. There are games where ranged weapons are as powerful as the melee and also get to spend a couple turns firing before the melee elements even reach the line, which causes the min/max players to simply build gunlines since ranged superiority is clearly better since you can dish the damage at a distance.

Ranged weapons should be dangerous… but not the equal to melee. Otherwise just remove the melee altogether because no one will need to use it if you can never get into melee in the first place because you’re gunned down before you even get close enough to the enemy to use it.

In some games I think thats fine. In a game where guns are the focus, I think melee should be a secondary thing. But this is conan and the highlight of this game shouldn’t be guns or ranged fire IMO.

2 Likes

For me archers are a support look at all the battles in history (this the exception of Briton vs France with the long bow) Archers where used to soften on the other side before the foot solders went in and fought the battle. I use a bow to soften targets before i got head to head or to finish them if they run away but i think that being able to just kill anyone at range is a bit op all you have to do is put points into grit wear light gear and just run away from a heave and keep bowing them down. The heavy cant catch you they are to slow and if they run you kill them anyway. Over all I think bows are in a good place.

This.

The entire post is great, of course. As are pretty much the entirety of Nuria and Taemien’s posts. But that particular statement is more poignant than it may seem, at least to me. As I have stated occasionally in various posts, I’ve always used and enjoyed daggers along with my bow. I’ve spent hundreds of hours poking enemies with a single dagger in my left hand in Live. Most of those hundreds of hours with an arrow sticking out of my right hand.

I play PVE, locally and on my own and other RP PVE servers. I’ll be at 2,000 hours of CE played by next week and that is with having taken six months off from gaming at the end of last summer. I purchased the EA Barbarian Edition last year and more recently pre-ordered the PC Collector’s Edition from Germany. I believe that my voice should be heard and my preferred play style considered with as much weight as any player (but not more than). I have played through many changes and reversions.

I’ve nothing but love for Conan Exiles, love and respect for all involved in its creation, development and support. That will continue through it all just as I will continue to carry and use my bow even while it is only as effective as farting in an enemy’s general direction. I even quite like the majority of the community, including and even especially some PVPers and understand all sides of these discussions. What I dislike is my concerns about the things I love being quickly discounted or summarily written off by some as unimportant.

I have this feeling, a good vibe, if you will, about Oscar. I believe he cares about bow use and its relevance in CE and will continue tweaking combat, working toward great solutions for as many play styles as possible.

2 Likes

I’d like an explanation why you think Accuracy is equal to Strength or any other stat currently.

As I said prior, I was able to clear out an area at tier (New Asgarath, with Ancient Bow and Razor Arrows, or Cimmerian War Axe) with a standard amount of effort. And it appeared that 30 Accuracy is about equivalent in power to 0 Strength with same tier weapons.

That means to make a 40th level tier ranged weapon on par with a same tier melee, it takes 205 attribute points. I’m not sure how anyone would consider that balanced.

I could have spent those points in STR and then easymoded the area with an extra 60-95 (with perks) damage to melee and just cleaved a path.

Feel free to try it yourself. Go to New Asagarth, get your choice of grit armor (I used the light version). Put 30 in ACC, and your choice in GRT, VIT, ENC, ect. (at level 40ish, I tested at 45) Spawn a Cimmerian Waraxe, Ancient Bow, and a few stacks of Razor Arrows.

See how much easier it is just to go through with the Axe with 0 STR, versus using a bow with 30 ACC. Then reset and put the points in STR and watch the area melt like butter in comparison.

And this is assuming PVE. PVP gets a bit dicey due to the nature of trying to land hits on an erratically moving player versus a predictable NPC. Not only have I not been able to reliably hit other players, but they haven’t hit me with a bow either very much.

As I said before, if its a support weapon… what’s the Accuracy stat for? As it stands now, it serves as a dump stat to trap ignorant newbies. It pales in comparison to every other stat in the game. If they don’t plan on changing anything, the best thing to do would be to remove the Accuracy stat entirely.

5 Likes

I can reiterate that I wouldn’t mind having a pure archer backing me up. But I think the discussion would be better served without taking it to a personal level, by not calling peeps elitist whatever behind them squares that the forums won’t let you show :yum:

You have to understand that people have been playing this game for a while and through multiple iterations. They’ve been on the receiving end of Archery when it is overbalanced. They’ll likely not like to see that happen again. And I agree, overly strong bows makes the game boring. It makes your style of play redundant and no longer unique.

So you would directly benefit from a balance between melee and ranged. Right now melee is favored in balance and we only need to convince people that ranged is in a very week spot. Using facts, evidence, and examples. Not emotional responses.

Okay, so it seems like there are some people in here that haven’t played games where melee and ranged characters battle it out, before this game. So let me drop some knowledge on you folks.

The reason that ranged characters inherently deal less damage to melee characters, than melee characters deal to ranged characters, is because ranged characters have an inherent advantage in the form of ranged attacks.

A ranged character starts to deal damage the moment they spot the melee character, but the melee character doesn’t deal damage until they get within melee range of the ranged character. This means that the ranged character would automatically win every single fight, if both characters had the same HP (no armor) and damage output.

In ever other game in existence, melee characters have massive amounts of HP, armor, magic resist, etc, and all kinds of mechanisms to overcome the ranged attacks of the ranged character they’re fighting, while the ranged character has a minuscule total HP. Or the melee character simply has massive damage, while the ranged character has a tiny amount, if they both have comparable HP and defenses. This is called balance.

It’s pretty simple guys; if someone is going to land multiple attacks before the other character even has the ability to deal damage, there absolutely needs to be a difference in the damage dealt, or a difference in the survivability.

Most games use a mathematical formula to determine the damage of different classes, based on the average engagement, dps, and how long it takes the melee character to close the distance. This is robotic, but the damage should be identical, as in, they should drop dead at the same time, with perfect balance. Then, you throw in skill-based mechanics, to make the game fun.

Basically, the ranged character needs to take far less of a percentage of health, per attack, than the melee character once he actually closes the distance. Sorry, but that’s just life.

1 Like

in a tab target games of course yes, duh

one problem atm is movement and weaving and the very odd change to arrow arc and drop, you might get 1 or 2 hits at ranged before the melee knows whats up and charge you or just LOS and then its basicly over those two hits did what? 60 damage total, congrats only 10 more hits and they might need to drink a aloe pot…

something like range doing 20-30% less damage then melee is ok for comparable invenstment of points
atm its something like 75% less damage than melee per hit!! another issue is how slow bows hit they heavy attack needs to be speed up by a good 200%

the combo attack is also a HUGE problem, its horrid, the first patch that did the combat overhaul before they added bow combo attack it was SOO good, felt great, then they added in the combo attack and nerfed damage and went wet noodle status

as the devs has said they nerf bow damage JUST so they could give the 50 acc perk for headshots…a super dumb move but hey they can fix it if we yell loud enough

so yes overall its out of whack thats why the forums are here to let them know its too low, if its supposed to be a opening attack thing, bring back crossbows and up the damage on them ALOT for just that

2 Likes

Well yeah, the ranged character has to be able to hit the melee character, in order for the game to be balanced, that much is obvious.

I’m not saying the state of archery is okay right now, it clearly isn’t, and I really hope it’s fixed soon, as I love playing ranged characters.

This is where the average length of engagement comes into play. If the average engagement yields ranged characters widdling a melee character down to 10% hp, then the melee character needs to hit the ranged character for somewhere around 90% of their hp, once they’re within melee range.

1 Like

Thanks for this. I wholeheartedly agree.

I keep forgetting the part about how easily bow shots are dodged/avoided. I remember seeing a video (possibly by Just Horse, but not sure) that I think Nuria linked in another thread that was a great example of a heavy armor dude completely avoiding bow shots even up close. Also, in PVE, leading targets seems quite a bit more difficult to me as well. I used to get a thrill on Live when I practiced and began leading targets really well.

I completely avoid the sluggish heavy shot except to occasionally open with it and I time light shots to skip the combo by pausing slightly between every two shots. I swear that it also feels like arrow speed is slower, but that may just be skewed perception on my part with the different aiming and arcs. But all of that is fairly moot as it’s just me doggedly attempting to remain dedicated to my bow and is really just going through the motions since it currently feels like crap (or as you deftly put it, “wet noodle status” -chuckles-).

If we want to toss in comparisons to other games as many are wont to do, making head shots should always give a damage bonus with little or no investment, melee head shots as well (often in the form of increased critical chance/damage)–mace to the face, dagger/javelin/spear to the eye, hammer to the noggin, etc., with some possible advantage given to bows for the theoretical practice/precision required to achieve them at range. In short, I agree that the 50 Accuracy reward is truly terrible for the investment.

I was going to say “unfortunately” I didn’t get back on TestLive until after the big nerf so I missed that sweet spot you and several others have mentioned. However, perhaps that is for the best as I’d likely still be livid rather than just disheartened. Although, embracing the anger could be helpful with the “yelling loud enough” you mentioned since seemingly, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” around here more often than not.

1 Like

I’m not sure I entirely agree with you here, but the tone of this post versus your previous is much better (to me) and I absolutely love alliteration, so even without that, your name alone made it worthwhile to add a like to the post!

1 Like

Keep it chill in here, folks. I had to clean up some posts. Please leave personal attacks out of the discussion.

2 Likes

Its not just about the damage of bows. Its about the viability of Bows and the stat Accuracy. Read my posts above where its found that 30 Accuracy (205 Attribute points) equals 0 Strength using same tier weaponry. I took 30 in ACC, put the rest into GRT and such. Then went to New Asgarath and cleaned it out with little trouble using an Ancient Bow and Razor Arrows. Without changing the 30 ACC to STR, I went in and did the same using a Cimmerian War Axe. It was easier took about the same amount of damage. Now imagine if I did switch the 30 into STR, gained +60% base damage to melee, +25% on status hits, and +10% on light attacks.

And that is assuming PVE. PVP is another ballgame. Due to the nature of throwing weapons. They could increase the damage 10x and we’d likely still have the same problems.

You can say that ranged needs to be less damage than melee all day. But you have no justification why 205 attribute points spent in Accuracy should be equal to spending 0 in Strength. Unless someone can explain in detail why Accuracy should be an ‘I gotcha stat’ that traps ignorant new players into spending into it needlessly like its a deadend of a maze.

To me that doesn’t make any sense. But that is the current state of the attribute in question.

If this is true, then yes this philosophy needs to change entirely. I’m all for changing this perk to something else if it means getting some more than pinprick damage. Something like ignoring Armor on headshots would work quite well.

And for the love of God lets have javelins and throwing axes stack.

5 Likes