Dungeon and the pain of people not knowing what to do


#42

Oh, I didn’t mention it the other time cause I thought it was obvious, but…

A dungeon build should have single target power moves from your main weapon and probably your other weapon!

Basics are not as strong!

Why have I even seen more than one person doing this, in tiers higher than E5? Is account selling that rampant?


#43

Are they ONLY using basics? If so that’s kind of hilarious but also terrifying unless they were running an experiment. (I’ve tested on regionals how much my ‘only basics’ could do and surprisingly it’s more than you’d think)


#44

Using my Chaos/Fist build, I can do around 75% of my total DPS simply spamming Deconstruct–and probably closer to 80% if I had Virgil. An important thing to note is that my Waxing Delirium and Capriciousness signets are Legendary 20.


#45

(shrug on) DPS players…what more!! (shrug off)
see I am 100% liking this thread.


#46

No, they had other active abilities, just not a single target power move for their main hand. They managed about 1.1k dps in max mythic signets (for chaos) + low mythic talis. In fairness it’s Eblis so there’s like, 30% downtime + occluding lens, but the highest dps in the group was doing >5k with only about 20% higher combat power.

No parse on the other guy I’ve seen not using power moves but they said they don’t like Exsanguinate, which, fair enough…


#47

I can be more lazy now XD


#48

Not all players know what gadgets they should have slotted for which fight, or when and whether the tank could use some support. Much stress on all concerned could be avoided by the tank clearly stating what is needed when entering the dungeon.


#49

Clearly the complains are becouse when the tank asks for any kind of help either he gets no answer or simply some dps don’t even understand what he is asking for.
If the tank does not ask for help you are not supposed to do anything else then pew-pew.

On the other hand it just came to my mind that language barriers could be an issue as well. I remember a couple of times when some people in group could not speak/understand English at all. Other times someone could not understand my tactics explanation probably becouse of my bad English skills, that should be taken into account.


#50

Tanks should not have to be de facto group leaders. This notion that tanks should be responsible for everything unless they tell the group otherwise really needs to die.


#51

You are probably correct, but let’s be realistic. In most MMOs, and certainly in this one, tanks are the key element of every group, and often (in SWL, always) have more to deal with than any other profession or role. For this reason, they usually have a deeper understanding of the tactics necessary in a raid or dungeon. Furthermore, many of their abilities are specifically designed to include what in other games would be called debuffing (causing negative effects on their opponent); other builds, however, and particularly DPSs, can only do so with gadgets. So for a DPS to switch from a damage buff gadget to a debuff gadget is counterproductive, unless specifically requested by the tank - who is the only one in a position to judge whether this will be necessary or not.

Finally, it is no secret (and a true reflection of game realities) why PUG groups are almost invariably started by tanks; if you aren’t a tank, or have one available to join, there’s little point wasting your time, because under normal circumstances, a tankless PUG will get nowhere.


#52

But this meta is all about tanks.
For examples:
1, If tank can’t handle the new HE1 flame slash bug/feature, people just riot and ask to remove/fix the dungeon. XD
2, Whether people do e9 or e10, whether it’s farm or full run, it’s mostly depending on tanks.


#53

Why is that the case? Because DPS cannot be expected to know what ultimately increases their DPS? DPS can’t figure out when everyone dies in a fire due to a failed DPS check that maybe they should sort out who brings Exposed? Why is it that only tanks are in a position to judge this?

Interestingly, Exposed cannot be applied via gadget. It is only via skills. And also, most SWL skills are multi-use—HEG stuns, Eruption stuns and Exposes, other elites Debilitate. So it’s not that hard for a DPS to debuff without changing a single thing.


#54

because there is one tank and four DPS. Groups (not just gaming ones) work best with only one final voice. It could be anyone, could be the one with the most tactical experience. Which by default is supposed to be… moment of surprise the tank. Who is the only one expected to know more then the others unless said otherwise.

If that is not enough, in SWL it’s the tank who do the most important job, we don’t have any group splits, any logical riddles, any DPS cooperation, hell we don’t even have support role. ALL bosses are just: tank holds, DPS kills. Which only supports the way of things that tank decide what is and what is not necessary, again, by default.

(Also tanks are more rare. As DPS is driven by “high numbers”. Tank is driven by “self-importance”. They are the ones sacrificing themselves so others may go through the dung. DPS can be lazy, tank can’t. Being in command nourishes this feeling :stuck_out_tongue: If there is someone who doesn’t accept advice easily it would be most likely tank. So if you think convincing DPS to bring a gadget (1 of 4 is good enough) you’ve never tried to convince tank to do something out of their customs.)


#55

When I tank, I let dps decide which of expose and opening shot they want the group to have. If I can’t do all the impairs, I tell them which ability one of them needs to impair and let them sort it out (either someone saves their impairing elite, or switch to a gadget). On majority of fights I just do it all myself, it’s just when I’m in E8-9 that I can’t sustain all fights with 2 impairs (Eblis is the main one that comes to mind). With a healer in the group I can do 100% of purge/impairs, only need the healer to cleanse.


#56

Who is responsible for decisions, to me, highly depend on what we are deciding on. Generally the tank is the obvious choice, but doesn’t have to be.
As a tank i always tell people what tactic i aim for, if there are more regular choices. For instance HE5, i’ll choose the order, and as a DPS i’ll ask for it, if not told. And on the way to HE4, i’ll respect whatever rush tactic the tank asks for (kill/hide/die).
If deciding if we should burn through the blue phase on Ur-draug, I’ll ask the healer, cause they are the ones who primarily make that work. This also means as the healer i’ll declare wether or not i can manage the blue phase.

If my group is at a fight where mechanics are known to be hard to have one player cover, i’ll ask if that extra purge is needed, or that extra support stun. Some fights i’ll go ahead and just bring certain things. I mostly run with an extra impair, more so as i am melee, and can end up in a pickle if the tank suddenly realize they don’t have a stun ready.

What people prefere is entirely up to them. However if you (as a team) bash your head against a boss mechanic, stop and figure out what is missing as a team. If your tank or healer or even a DPS asks if someone can cover something specific, don’t go with “no” just because your personal DPS suffer a bit.

“Dead DPS is no DPS” It’s as simple as that.
This goes for DPS checks and non-DPS checks. For fights with no DPS check, worry less about the numbers and more about staying alive. So what if it takes a few sec longer.

Unfortunately i have had people refuse to bring a support stun for things like HR1, despite me as the Tank asking for it. Neither would they bring more HP. The idea that tanks should be the leaders is fine and all, if the rest of the team respect their decisions, otherwise it means nothing.

Fights that include Adds is where my fellow DPS can really disappoint me. Don’t assume someone else will cover for you not killing those adds. If there are a lot of them bring an AoE. If it’s 1 bomb running up here and there, watch and nuke it. As a DPS for those fight’s i’ll often declare that i am going full AoE. That is the one case where maybe you don’t have to worry about bringing your own AoE … if nothing is said please cover your 1/3 of the add damage.


#57

That strikes me as a clear and unambiguous reason for permanent blacklisting of the guilty…


#58

Just in case you don’t realise you don’t actually have to check into the anima well, the game will auto-check you in once you’ve walked a few steps onto the bridge.


#59

Just in case you never had situation like one I described… No, it doesn’t. It does only if you yourself with your own legs go to bridge - then it auto check you in. And my character after he died was ported to well before that, not the one near bridge. Unless it was coincidental bug, it’s like this and it was only reason I mentioned it at all.

…Ugh, it was long ago and now I can’t recall if I moved after I was ported on bridge, I kinda think I did? Though I was too frustrated by the fact I wasn’t able to do anything before so I also could just freeze while typing ‘WTF?’ in chat. :thinking: Well, my point wasn’t just that one.


#60

If you get pulled into the fight it skips the anima well update.
If you walk through the barrier at the start of the fight, your anima well updates without having to walk over to the anima well itself. So you’re better off just doing that than looting and then going back to the well.


#61

Yes, I haven’t had a problem not checking into the well before walking through the barrier on a typical pull, but the cinematic can pull you from anywhere in the dungeon (found out in storymode when I was lore hunting) and bypass loads of terrain so you wouldn’t get that update if you ‘ported’ past it. Those cinematic pulls are rough and don’t leave you where you started!