Fix feroxic daggers! They ruin gameplay

Wak do you play pvp? Because I’m sure in pve killing things with 2 poison every hit would be great. Pvp on the other hand (which I’m sure you don’t play)feroxic daggers is all people use and I mean that and lances is it. Sigils do not cut it when it comes to having 10 potions stacked on you in a matter of 5 seconds. It’s simply nerfing 1 weapon so it doesn’t do broken poison stacking. It seems a lot easier to fix one weapon rather than buffing all the other weapons to counter it.

1 Like

Amen to this…
Feroxic daggers are too OP.
Nerf the poision and make them only give 1 poision debuff per hit.
I have lost count to how many times I have died to these daggers…
It would be fun that people die from a real hit and not just a poision ?

2 Likes

Except it’s not just nerfing one weapon - it’s nerfing yet another weapon. And the cycle continues, as the next weapon will become the meta choice, and then calls will come for nerfs to that. Cutting every weapon down to the same base level is the only eventual result than will come from that. A more useful argument would be ways that can be suggested to make other options equally attractive - raise things up - or ways to counter poison daggers, reducing their effectiveness for PVP, without needing to nerf them.

3 Likes

It’s still nerfing one weapon. Clearly you don’t play on pvp as well. But it doesn’t really matter because the PlayStation community is pretty much non existent. So I guess go ahead and buff other weapons to counter a already op weapon makes sense. Just add more issues with weapons why not

Whoosh.

The point @DanQuixote was making is that this is just one more in an endless string of nerfs. It’s not the first, it won’t be the last, and – most importantly – it won’t solve the balance.

Most of the PVP balancing process so far has been:

  1. X is meta.
  2. Players complain X is OP and demand a nerf.
  3. X is nerfed.
  4. Y becomes meta and we go back to step 1.

It’s been more than 3 years since Conan Exiles ended early access and was fully released. This cycle has been going on for most of that time. By now, it’s pretty obvious – even to those of us who don’t play on PVP servers – that the only way to achieve the balance is to break that cycle and implement a system that doesn’t reduce to just one meta.

Every PVP game has meta. Fun ones have multiple, so not everything is reduced to just one choice.

Or, who knows, maybe we could hope the game stays alive long enough for this cycle to produce an outcome where all weapons are perfectly equal and there are no meaningful choices at all. Hell, just give everyone a stick :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

7 Likes

I see your point. I’m not arguing. Don’t nerf it then 2 poison every hit it is! Might as well take out all the other weapons cause no ones using them…

Well said

I haven’t played Siptah and haven’t used the daggers, but unless their description specifically says they have a double poison effect I would assume that this is a bug.

As such, if it is a bug it should be fixed. It’s not really asking for a nerf when something is such an obvious outlier, it’s asking for a fix.

Poison is already very powerful. Even with lower damage venom infused daggers are great tools for fighting bosses who aren’t immune to bleed and poison.

As for why not make everything as strong, that’s not really feasible. First all poisons weapons would need to be given a double effect, and venom infused weapons would need a damage buff.

Now that that’s done, all other weapons would now trail even farther behind and need buffed. Oh no, now all weapons are too powerful, we need to buff armor values to balance it, as well as NPC armor and hit points

Meta should not be an excuse to leave things broken. Players will gravitate to powerful items and weapons, but in a healthy balance there will be multiple options for top tier gear/character/builds.

Even in a PVE setting unbalanced weapons aren’t healthy for a game. Enemies are partially balanced around player damage values.

When creating new content developers have to then decide if they should make it a challenge for people using the severely overpowered gear knowing this will create a frustrating experience for everyone not using OP gear, or balance it around the rest of the weapons and offer no challenge to the portion of people using same said gear

But that is a misrepresentation of what is being called for - presented by people arguing ‘nerf or nothing’. What is actually being called for is some form of constructive suggestions, rather than exclusively destructive ones.

As we keep pointing out, over and over again, the cycle of nerf does not end, and will never end until it reaches homogeneity. That is precisely why no one is calling for all weapons to be powered up to match the current target of ‘nerf rage’ - because that would create the exact same homogeneity that we want to avoid.

Instead, we have one side arguing to nerf the latest in a long line of meta weapons, without being willing to consider any alternatives. While the other side is simply arguing for the possibility of finding other solutions, given that nerfing doesn’t work and we’ll be back here again with the next patch and the next meta weapon being condemned.

5 Likes

This whole subject seems loaded with pretext to me.

I think it’s important to differentiate the calls against nerfs and the attitude that balancing around PVP players ruins aspects of the games for others. PVP players are interacting with ALL of the systems available in the game and will always feel the effects of them to a greater degree. It shouldn’t be surprising that they would be the first to call for changes to imbalances.

Shouting them down because calls for nerfs effect the way you play PVE is no different than then saying your opinion doesn’t matter because you don’t PVP.

Nerfs are the simplest solution to the problem. I agree there are better more complex solutions, even offered my own here earlier, but dismissing the problem because you don’t like the proposed (and probable) solution is traversing beyond unhelpful into nefarious.

2 Likes

As long as here is new content there will always be the need for more balance passes and bug fixes. It’s just the reality of game design, mistakes will be made like with virtually any other job. Some mistakes are miscalculation and some are human error when entering data.

This blind argument against nerfs isn’t realistic. If FC releases a new weapon that can one shot every enemy on the game becomes someone put a . in the wrong spot should that just stay that way?

I get your argument, and I’ve seen it across different forums for different games for a long long long time.

A point I often try to make but is virtually never engaged in these conversations is that balance even in PvE is important

Who is dismissing the problem? Certainly no one that is calling for constructive solutions rather than destructive solutions could be considered to be denying a problem exists? Why would we be calling for solutions if we’re not accepting PVP players claims that a problem exists for PVP?

However, repeatedly avoiding arguing with the actual substance of the debate, and deflecting back to the same tired claims of ‘you just want it all super-powered’ and ‘you don’t understand the problems/are ignoring the problems’ - well, maybe that could be considered a little ‘nefarious’ to use your word.

2 Likes

Of course, not. And of course balance passes need to be done with every new content - and I consider that especially important for PVE. Again, no one is disputing that. Though it should be noted there is some dispute as to whether this week’s target (feroxic daggers) is a balance problem for PVE - let’s not just assume that to be the case because it’s a problem for PVP.

And again, the argument gets misrepresented - no one is blindly arguing against nerfs. THe argument is a call for a reduction in that being the immediate response to anything. A call for the possibility of considering alternatives before just demanding that a thing be nerfed. And maybe, at the end of that, nerfing is the best/only solution. But by then it will actually have been debated rather than merely demanded.

2 Likes

This is why I said “fix “ in the title

1 Like

That was just my reading. I am perfectly capable of being off base and I don’t feel the need to point fingers to try and prove anything.

I agree, this is just as nefarious. Dismissing opinions purely because they negatively impact how you play has no place on the forums IMO. Unless we are all here to just lobby for our own little gameplay circles.

There are good arguments against nerfs, some of which have been eloquently elaborated on here. I am in that camp as well, as stated here and in other threads. I just think the whole “PVP nerf everything” meme gets in the way of conversation about actual PVP balance issues at times.

4 Likes

I’m basing my opinion on this on PvE and comparing it to other weapons in PvE. This is my train of thought on why I think this is a bug is as follows

  1. Venom infused daggers are great weapons, I don’t recall having seen anyone claiming they are underpowered.

  2. feroxic daggers do everything venom infused daggers do.

3)feroxic daggers do more base damage and double stack poison with no drawbacks

I think it’s likely a bug based on these points, and should be fixed. If it’s intentionally balanced that way I would personally be in favor of a nerf.

This wasn’t directed to me, but I’d like to touch on it. I agree that in the discussion of ideas that this is the healthiest and most beneficial input we can provide to FC. However, I think it is unfair to expect the average player/forum user to give careful thought to the long term impact changes have on the game. That is fundamentally the designers problem. To take even the “badly formed” feedback inputs and make good decisions long term.

I am game for challenging these simpler opinions to look beyond the immediate. I just think we have to be careful of dismissing them as “lesser” opinions or the opinions of “those” players. If that’s not the case here, then it can just serve as a cautionary tale.

That’s not the claim. The claim is that nobody is complaining about venom-infused daggers, which also stack 2 poison with one light attack, just like feroxic daggers.

And yes, I literally just went into a single-player game and admin-spawned both weapons to confirm this.

That’s why @Wak4863 mentioned them, and that’s why this seems like yet another call for a nerf in an endless cycle, rather than a bug or an otherwise insanely overpowered item.

I completely agree. Every time someone points a finger at a group of players and blames them for a decision that Funcom made, they’re making that same mistake.

However, that’s not what @DanQuixote was doing here. Sure, it’s unfair to expect players to think in terms of game design, but it’s fair to point out that nerfs are not the only way or the best way, and to provide context.

The problem isn’t as much that @Boobie asked for a nerf, the problem is the reaction to “how about we don’t nerf things and do something else” idea. I don’t see @DanQuixote arguing blindly against nerfs or dismissing “lesser” opinions of “those” players, but I do see similar behavior from those arguing for the nerf:

I think @Wak4863 and @DanQuixote are on the money here: feroxic daggers are stacking poison the same way venom-infused daggers do, and the call for nerf is coming only now because whatever was nerfed before is no longer the problem, so let’s move on to the next nerf, and rinse and repeat.

There’s always a better solution than just a nerf. No one should be booed because they pointed that out.

8 Likes

I agree with this completely. I also don’t think @DanQuixote is or was being dismissive, they are just who responded to me. I think so long as that context is provided, there is nothing wrong with arguing against nerfs. As annoying as that is to have to innumerate each time the onus is on us as the forward thinkers to provide it, I think at least.

Also @Wak4863 provides a separate great counterpoint. Simply if it was fine before why is it a problem now? (Unless I have misunderstood) That would require discussion on how over centralization can or should play a role in balances changes as well as the pros and cons of the cyclical nature of nerfs as you briefly discussed earlier.

As to this:

I don’t know how to best deal with this. If someone is unwilling or incapable of interacting with your ideas, my general rule is to disengage. I don’t speak to people who aren’t listening. It’s tough though because the forum is kind of like a debate in that there is an audience, maybe the goal is to convince them as opposed to the one you are speaking to. My only goal here has been to promote good arguments and less labeling and decrying, but now I’m veering off topic lol.

2 Likes

Thanks for providing more in-depth information that explains why feroxic daggers are currently meta. I still believe that it would be better to add something to compensate and make combat more varied rather than nerfing, but I appreciate the willingness to engage in a conversation :slight_smile:

I don’t know either, but I don’t like just disengaging. The great thing about Funcom is that they listen to players’ feedback, but the flip side of that coin is that if you remain silent, you lose your chance for your voice to be heard. I still remember the Karmic Effect incident and I’m not likely to forget it any time soon.

2 Likes