[Guide] Sustain-tanking for anyone


#131

Thank you!


#132

Brawler’s Belt is minimally useful on a tank cause it gives you more rage, which gives you more frequent heals (with Pulverize passive) but no extra dps.

To be specific, Pulverize is 50-100% of your casts, basic is the rest. Getting hit is a bit of rage (something like 1/sec, I think thick skin may double it) compared to 3 and 15 from casts. So at 50% pulverize 15% of them are on rage w/o belt, 17% w/ belt. At 100% pulverize it’s 22% on rage w/o belt, 24% w/.

So in general 2% more of your pulverizes heal for 4% of your hp = 0.0008*hp extra hate per pulverize (which is like, 10-20 hate)

Using Eruption to consume rage is kinda feasible as a tank so you could get some extra dps that way but you’d lose a bunch of hate (it’s an energy-thirsty move, iirc at no point do signets balance out in a way where it’s cost effective for hate cause it only does something like 8x the damage of pulverize)


#133

Thank you for the explanation!
If i understand this correct, Black Sash does not give much extra hate but niether does Brawlers Belt. Since i dont want to upgrade two talismans i might as well go with BB since its usefull for solo with hammer.


#134

Might be giving too much credit but I wonder if thats why the current tank meta is basically a glorified DPS gearset with AA shifted to health and chaining tank CDs came to be. If thats the case then why the crap to Def/Evade glyphs exist?

Except you have NO reason to not be using Immutable other than you’re stupid like me and tank(ed) with shotgun/hammer. “Screw you, I can’t die. Also hate multiplier” is so far ahead of the other tank elites or elites that might be used by tanks. Especially since if you’re offhanding Chaos like most sustain tanks, than you freed up a passive slot because you’re only really using Chaos for its CDs and don’t care about paradoxes.


#135

We can consider dps talisman is a common general daily life build that good for almost everything. Thus, they are logically the first build for everyone.
If someone can spare additional efforts(which is unfortunately quite a lot in SWL), they can make specific builds that do better in some specific situations.

Based on current mechanics.
Both Def/Evade glyphs are doing things like “you have a x% chance to have reduced/igonored incoming damage” Thus, they are good against large amount of small dmg. The more incoming attacks happen the higher chance it can reflect the usage of Def/Evade glyphs. Thus, in theory they shall be still good at situations like PVP.

However, all the dungeon/raid bosses are currently not using massive small hits. They are all using slow but heavy hit that can kill a tank without defence CD in a few second. We can’t rely on a percentage to do the magic for tanking. For example, if someone is in really bad luck, even when gear says they have 50% chance to eval incoming dmg, but 4 attacks may still get though in a row, tank dead, group wipe. Thus, it makes those glyphs work less desired as we want more reliable tanking methods.

In addition to that, when we get into end game, we overgeared bosses on our defense. But, our DPS teammates start to do massive dmg on boss, tanks will need extra efforts to hold aggro. Def/Evade glyphs do not increase dmg output, thus they do not generate additional aggro. In order to still keep up with DPS’s dmg out put and hold aggro, tanks will need to rely on glyphs that can increase dmg.


#136

I would agree here but Equal footing overrides your glyphs.

Everything else you’re describing is someone did not do the math for Incoming Damage, Outgoing Healing and Threat. They just eyeballed it and called it a day.


#137

Most bosses hit slow and heavy, but the only raid boss we have so far is not one of them. It hits quite fast. There are a couple bosses that also have fast hits, like Klein’s Dreaming Shroud or Primordial Dweller’s scrubbing bubbles. The lava golem in HE is slow burst damage.


#138

Regarding the Black Sash, it doesn’t work at all according to our recent tests, i just forgot to update this part in the guide, thank you for pointing this out!

This is indeed the main reason tanks optimize themselves with DPS gear - the gear grind. The other consideration is that the only role worth minmaxing for main gear before any other role is DPS, since tanking and/or healing roles are capped very early on their capabilities (as long as the tank survives and has aggro - he accomplishes his job, no point in adding more sturdiness), whereas you aren’t limited at all for DPS roles and can always use more damage (there are obviously exceptions for tanking gear - one needs to consider opportunity costs and build variety unlocked by using some proper tanking items).

It’s the other way around - there’s no reason to keep Immutable on your bar if you do not need the extra hate from it and you do not need the survivability / healing provided by it. You might as well use the slot to add extra utility - this is why builds such as the cleanse/buff-tanking exist.


#139

London and NY fighting club :stuck_out_tongue: (some people doing battle royale out there )


#140

Yeah building for eruption dps as tank is a matter of you survive anyway (either there’s enforced group heals, or minimal incoming dps) but controlling aggro still matters for mechanics. eg. I’d use it on E1 pug nyr cause I don’t need healing period. It’s more a dps build with pulverize and a couple defensive options (thick skin + taunt that happens to reduce damage taken) than a tank build.

I use eruption without passive pretty often as an impair cause may as well take the extra damage over beatdown or w/e and it has more cd reductions. Not really sustain-tanking though.


#141

Thats a whole different mess there.

As for the other people talking about when you outgear the content, that is not really relevant to the issue because well, you outgear the content.


#142

I’d hope you outgear the content before you start working on an equal-stats secondary gear set… it’s a big waste of effort until your primary items are max red, the generic hp/prot from talis will do more than any alternate extraordinary/glyph effects. (eg. if you make 2 red 30s, neither is as good as a red dps 70 even though it’s similar total item xp)


#143

I’ve left my tank gear to rust in my inventory in the event that FC ever unscrews this pooch with it being a much lower E-level than my DPS set.

Course I’ve stopped running dungeons overall since my pre-made group moved on


#144

Quick update : i’m sorry, i promised to release some additional info above about mods and various other little things and i didn’t so far, but it’s still in the pipes, the fact is that i’m lacking motivation to work on SWL related content these days. I’m on a “break” until something fresh gets released and until it hooks me back again, and then i’ll release the promised stuff.

The guide should still be up to date on pretty much everything, but don’t hesitate to continue asking questions or pointing out parts that might have slipped from my review.


#145

New bug discovered today thanks to Darxide: any time you both have Backlash and Rock Hard at the same time, Rock Hard won’t ever absorb any damage and only redirects from Backlash would happen (alongside 50% damage reduction from Backlash), even if Rock Hard’s shield is bigger than Backlash’s.

The logs would display both redirects and absorbs when absorbs don’t actually happen. In the screenshot below, you can notice damage in red, and an absorb at the same time, which isn’t normal.

If the B shield is bigger (can happen if it crits, happens to me since maxed crit power), the RH shield displays the same value in the logs than what B gives, which should be a lie since RH’s shield is always a static amount.

In the 2nd screenshot, you can notice RH being equal to 41043, which doesn’t make sense since its maximum is 39322 (from the 1st screenshot).

Rock Hard starts working again properly if Backlash fades before Rock Hard (it absorbs damage properly).

There might be multiple bugs here, both in the logs and in the mechanics.

This is how things should work:

  • No absorbs in the logs if they actually don’t happen.
  • Display the correct value in the logs for Rock Hard even if a higher shield is already present (like a crit Backlash). This should translate into Rock Hard giving 39322 in the 2nd screenshot.
  • A higher shield should always overwrite a lower one, however since Backlash’s shield has additional effects, i’m not sure how things should be intended here. For now, Backlash keeps having priority over Rock Hard. It seems that both shields coexist, which also makes sense since Backlash isn’t an absorb shield but a redirect shield. Since no overwriting happens here because the nature of both shields is different, then both shield should work (Rock Hard should absorb the remaining damage incoming through Backlash).

PS: If you stick to the rotations explained in the guide, these problems shouldn’t happen to you.


Backlash prevents Rock Hard shield
#146

Conducted a few tests the other day to determine if the extra aggro from Glutton for Punishment is worth it when used from a shotgun secondary in the same fashion Immutable could be used.

Here are the findings:

Basically, the extra aggro here is around 5%, which might as well be attributed to an slight overkill in damage before aggro was taken or things like that. When used with Demolish, we found out that the extra aggro is equal to 1%, so we concluded that overall, this ability’s aggro isn’t worth the shot and it now gets thrown to the same trash where the Black Sash is. :frowning:


#147

What’s the difference on column 2 and 3? They both say Pulverise + Glutton, maybe i’m missing something obvious. Also I find it kinda unclear what Glutton does from it’s description.

Immutable: “For the next 5 seconds you generate more hate”
Glutton: “Additionally gain bonus hate on goaded enemies based on the number of shells consumed”

With Immutable i assume that all my attacks generate additional hate. With Glutton i find it unclear if it is bonus hate from attacks dealth during the taunt time, or if you straight up get a set hate number added to your current hate number.


#148

Sounds about right, whenever tooltips say extra hate based on something other than damage, it’s always a fixed tiny amount. It’s still an (unlisted) aggro swap though and between that and Enter the Fray it’s much easier to actually cast.


#149

We conducted 2 different tests, and the columns are the data points.


#150

Decided to share how to sustain and cleanse tank in NY E10. Also recorded some raid leading, the mic sound isn’t that good for it however, just figured recently how to separate audio tracks in shadowplay. Passives & agents in the description.