Hardened brick DLC vs Black Ice *POLL*

Hmm. Besides as a catalyst, I agree that black ice in the desert is just bizarre.

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The simple solution is to take 10 black ice and one consolident to create one black ice brick then require the same number of black ice bricks as hardened bricks for recipies.

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It is on pvp servers, so yes, the 2x rate. But, the OP is using that to figure his black ice farm as well.

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I’ve been farming stone like crazy lately in anticipation of economy changes. Just in case, the changes simply go the other way than expected and making recipes more expensive across the board.

Ratios? you all seem to forget you need insulated wood for black ice.

time that and then tell us whats faster…

just no

@NORfem I touched on insulated wood in the OP. It’s not even comparable.

@CodeMage I can see your perspective, and thanks for taking the time to make an argument. It’s hard to find that on these forums.

Thing is, there’s a disparity here between the communities which muddies all balance conversations. It’s easy for the pve-ers in this thread to say “well, shoot, hardened brick isn’t THAT hard to farm” and at first, my gut reaction is “are you people masochists?”, but then I remember we’re on different gamemodes.

See, pvp has a 2x rate, which would lead some to believe that it would be easier for pvpers to go for hardened brick. There’s crucial differences in HOW the structures are built, however. In pve, you build your base, it’s there for life. Your walls are 1 layer thick, you build for aesthetics. The amount of resource required are very, very low. In pvp, you’re squeezing 4 layers of fence foundations stacked to the ceiling in every space where you’d have only 1 wall in pve, roofs and ceilings are layered 4 ceilings per blockspace or rooftop intersections flanked my fences in each square - the cost per square in of a pvp base is exponentially higher than pve.

Not only that, but you have to build them more often. Your base gets hit, wiped, damaged, irreparably in some cases. You have to farm your materials under duress. On the last server I was on, I couldn’t even get within viewing distance of the brimstone lake without getting zerged by 6 players who lived nearby.

Then after you’ve built your base and you’ve farmed your mats and etc etc, after a few good wars most servers quiet down. So you either get wiped, or are forced to server hop to keep playing, since the population of pvp servers can be fickle. If a large clan gets wiped and quits, now a 40/40 server is down to 30/40, which reduces everyone’s interest in the server, and new players don’t join as readilly, it generally slides downwards from there. Part of why people that get wiped just quit is the time investment to get started again, it’s huge, and now your enemies have everything from your old base as an advantage, which they didn’t even need to wipe you before.

Couple all that with the fact that servers feel very small, so justifying the huge timesink needed to play a few sporadic wars with maybe 30 other people before a server dwindles… it can add up, over time. PvP servers have a 2x multiplier, but it doesn’t even come close to offsetting the real cost difference between the play types. In the same month a pve’er would build a base or two while exploring/questing, a pvp’er will be forced to build a number of huge, expensive honeycombed bases. In a weird twist of fate, you can even say most pvp’ers do more pve than pve’ers, only difference is that pve’ers don’t do what they do under stress.

So, I get your point. It’s easy to see how in a pve server it could be viewed as too easy, but if you play pvp any increase to the grind in any measurable capacity can slowly become unbearable. If anything, I’d like it if tier 2 buildings had some kind of buff so people didn’t feel as pressured to skip the entire middlegame of building, or if siegecraft was reworked so that it didn’t take 14 layers of honeycombed foundation stacked walls to buy you a half hour of time in a raid. At the end of the day though, they’ll just have to find a solution that is different for the two communities I think. Giving a blanket recipe change that doesn’t result in a homogenization of time spent is going to be a problem.

I don’t know why this happen but it shouldn’t be possible to build like that in the first place, i’ve seen those videos of people multilayering their bases and its the most tedious thing that could be done in this game and then some people whine about gathering resources being tedious in pvp… really?

i know, in pvp players always find a way to break the game to gain certain advantage, but this is ridiculous and i hope they find a way to avoid this…

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That’s certainly an interesting perspective that I didn’t have and thanks for sharing it. I didn’t think of it that way.

I’m going to offer my opinion now – it’s certainly not a fact and I won’t pretend it is – and I hope it’s not taken as any kind of attack on or dismissal of anyone’s playstyle. Also, yes I know I don’t play PVP and I haven’t had to deal with any of that stuff myself :slight_smile: Okay, that was the disclaimer, now I’m ready to put my foot in my mouth :stuck_out_tongue:

What you described sounds wrong. Not factually incorrect, but more like it shouldn’t be like that. Stacking 4 layers of fence foundations, layering 4 ceilings per block? Pardon my choice of words, but that’s cheesing.

Again, don’t take it as an insult or an attack. I know that players will adopt any strategy that gives them an advantage. I know that everyone does it and it’s a sensible thing to do. And, like Alex said in the post-update mailbag stream, it’s not the players’ fault they’re playing that way – when a game encourages playing a certain way, players are going to play that way. However, none of that makes it an inherently good thing.

I understand the pain points better now that you’ve described them, but I am not convinced that the solution is to lower the cost of hardened brick T3 buildings and keep building everything the way you can build black ice. My personal opinion is that it’s better to bring up the cost of black ice buildings to discourage that kind of building and work on balancing the game differently.

How? I don’t know. I have no PVP experience and I would need lots in order to propose a solution. I’m pretty sure that even this opinion will draw the ire of plenty of people, so I have no desire to speculate further. Even if I had lots of PVP experience, the human nature is such that roughly half of the players would still object to any solution proposed, but having none is worse, so I’ll try to avoid “injecting myself” further in PVP-related discussions :stuck_out_tongue:

Levity aside, even without PVP experience, this just seems like it needs improvement. The picture you painted makes raiding seem like a contest of who can apply more brute force and that just doesn’t sound that fun.

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I don’t know why this happen

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It shouldn’t be possible

If you don’t even understand it, how can you say it shouldn’t be possible? It’s that lack of understanding that makes pve to pvp conversations so tiresome on the forums. Saying that a playstyle shouldn’t exist because you just don’t think it should isn’t really valuable.

@CodeMage I get that too, and I understand how a pve’er would probably look at that and, at face value, say “this is cheese”. But for a pve’er, you guys don’t realize how easy it is to lose everything in pvp. Your typical honeycombed base, with stacked fence foundations and layered ceilings and rows upon rows of anticlimb… it only facilitates defense, it’s not sufficient on it’s own.

If someone decides to offline raid a base, it doesn’t even matter how many layers you have. It’s a 30 minute job, nearly every single time. You can have 80 doors and four hundred walls and 100 thralls, it doesn’t matter. They only buy you time to log in and defend, ultimately. A single player can farm enough bombs to pop 80 doors in just a few hours, so even with insane foundation stacking, any shmuck can come along and tunnel into your stuff without too many difficulties, if you’re not taking proper precautions.

And, in an odd sort of way, I like the way structures look built this way. They’re imposing, powerful, intimidating in a brutalist style. When you and the lads stumble upon a properly honeycombed U N I T, you’re all like “oh fokin ell bois that’s a THICC one” and you get to scouting and figuring out where the weak bit is. My best memories in pvp come from sieging properly built monster bases, where you really have to think and be smart about where you’re applying your pressure.

If you’re not building that way, it’s hard to defend at all. A single layer of walls will drop from only a handful of bombs, now the attackers have a huge entrypoint. If you try to build a traditional looking castle but your walls aren’t stacked, it’ll crumble.

Even easier - think of it this way. PvP is like trying to protect yourself from fire with a house made of paper. You can add as much paper as you like, but you’re only buying time, it’ll burn eventually. So, you could change it so building materials have 4x the hp but can’t be stacked, but that would only cause more problems. Being space effective, stacking allows for more building spots to be viable, if we make it harder to make sturdy bases, the amount of viable pvp building spots basically drops down to either the crevice, the keyhole or deserter’s gutter, with all other spots being a joke for siegecraft.

That’s why lollipop bases were the meta before the bubble nerf. There’s just no satisfying/effective way to defend your base without it feeling very, very grindy. I agree that we should have options, but that’s a very hard thing to tackle from a design perspective, and ultimately even with what’s called “cheese”, attackers have no trouble at all melting quickly through layers and layers of foundations and ceilings.

Like I said to Cyryus, that’s why I try not to engage in pvp vs pve threads when I can, because it’s the understanding that is lacking. He sees “whoah 4 foundations per block space? Stacked ceiling intersections?? That’s OP! That’s an exploit!” when in practice, it’s actually very flimsy and doesn’t even come close to defending your stuff, even with insane layering.

And, as it is right now, it’s very hard to justify the grind required to build a base like that out of anything other than black ice, given that it can be very grindy even with black ice.

Edit: Just to clarify, this post isn’t to argue with you either CodeMage, only to illustrate that the pve perspective is very very different from pvp, and that’s why there can be such a disparity in opinions at times.

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You have no clue what your talking about, I’m on PVE I use 3x foundations Tripled with fence foundations because Purge pulls…
So again it’s you that don’t know what your talking about not the PVErs.

Ye the level of honeycombing here still isn’t comparable. 3 Layers of foundations compared to literally every square inch of a pvp base being heavilly layered and honeycombed. I promise you, any base you have has a fraction of the resources a pvp base actually has. You should post a screenshot of one of your bases so we can see the difference.

A new player on our server has just built one of the most competent, gorgeous, honeycombed Apex bases I’ve ever seen. It is a thing of beauty, and his time I observed on the server really proved it. He worked super hard, for many days in a row. If you ask him why, he’ll say “that’s what we do.”

You’re going to lose some people here, because you’re missing a crucial element of barbarian empathy. You know and I know we play 95% PvE, most quiet days. Think about how hard that would be, if every time you started to build something on the map, you ran into some fool’s landclaim. Or every time you went for a picturesque spot, some sandstone gumdrop scenery wart is there? There is definitely an urgency.

Furthermore, PvE players have to deal with exploiters, who would crack a base with the purge faster than Mek-Kamoses can spew an insult. They need us to help them build troll-smart when it comes to ground bases. I just hope you can modify your statement a bit, and be more inclusive. :slight_smile:

Hey! I just said that! :wink: :smiley:

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I know but you build for what your up against.

Cant show everything because, this is my Jungle purge base, built for that purpose.

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Last one is Sinkhole, Where the black ice is it recently got hit by a purge *not mine, so not finished.

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Like I said, the comparison isn’t there. I get that you guys have purge pulling to deal with, and exploiting is always a pain in the ■■■ to have to deal with, but even layering your walls with a couple foundations compared to a pvp base is never going to reach the same cost investment. This base, which I wont show the interior too, has every single visible square inch covered with intersections wrapped in fences, the doors are honeycombed layers and layers, at least 60 doors altogether if you bomb it correctly and that’s if you pick the right paths inside, it’s built to be a maze. Every wall, every foundation, it’s over 8 layers thick from every angle. A full compliment of 100 fully armored epic flawless top tier named fighters and archers, easilly a base that takes over a thousand bombs to hit and a considerable amount of time. Doors are in raised fence foundations so you can’t even put bombs inside, you have to either bomb the whole foundation out or use arrows to tunnel in. Could STILL be offlined quickly and easilly by someone who knows what they’re doing.

Icing on the cake? That base was solo farmed, thralls and all, by me in a matter of a few weekends, with 90% of my farm going to the interior, the pvp sets, the bombs, the buff potions, etc. Like I said, I understand you guys have your struggles on pve too, but please respect the level of grind that the pvp’er has to contest with to remain viable in this game. I can run a tour of all the bases on this server that were just as honeycombed as mine that were levelled in the span of a few hours with their defenders online to protect it. The resource requirements just can’t be compared.

Edit: The platform is sandstone because this base is so high up, you can’t even reach it without specific gear combinations with flexibility kits on them, so if you start bombing your way in the only platform you’re able to easilly stand on disappears and it becomes that much harder to siege. Lots of effort put into the construction of this base. Half the doors don’t even go anywhere, even on the roof. Multiple redundancies, thousands of building pieces spent thickening every square inch of the place. It’s a different beast

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that building with black ice is a SIGNIFICANTLY lower time investment than the hardened brick variety. When the ultimate resource (not just in this game, but in life!) is time, then choosing the option that takes a lower time investment is not lazy, it is sensible, practical, and very realistically better in every sense EXCEPT aesthetics.

My reference to lazy was those that did not want to go north to get the building materials for building in black ice that are insisting all building styles now have the same resources and take the same amount of time as the one they have ‘elected’ to use when they are two totally different products.

Why did I just state they were two entirely different products? Because they are and people should stop demanding to make them the same.

While the OP took the time to throw out some stats such as how long it takes to pick some black ice (while neglecting things like resin to dry wood ratios), he/she neglected to take into account a couple main differences between black ice and other T3 building options and these differences are some of the reasons black ice should not be identical to other T3 building options.

Black ice is at the Northern most point of the map from original spawn locations. Not only is the trek to get there much more difficult, it will require specialized armor and/or food/drink to survive the area the primary material (black ice) is farmed in whereas stone, wood, iron ore, plant fiber and fish can all be farmed easily starting around the spawn point and ALL over the map after first making a character. Availability and eazy peazy farming of ALL basic mats = little more time invested in crafting.

For black ice, the primary resource is not spread all over the map and the location of the material is located in an area that requires severe climate mitigation, it also has a much higher degree of NPC difficulty (sabers, mammoth, frost giants ect) than the southern NPC’s so the degree of difficulty in gathering with climate control and more difficult NPCs is much greater than trees, stone, iron ore, plant fiber and cooking fish.

Not only is the degree of difficulty in gathering much greater than the rest of the T3 building options, the crafting of black ice building pieces grant a fraction of the experience that other T3 building pieces give so that is also a tradeoff.

Combining the more difficulty in gathering resources (higher level character to survive climate and NPCs vs basic materials that can be farmed immediately after character creation) and very nerfed level experience gained in crafting (don’t need xp at level 60), I might even suggest that black ice is almost an end- game type of building material. Attempting to begin farming the materials for black ice at level 5 like you can with all other T3 building options would be next to impossible without a lot of support.

These two building options are NOT the same so therefore people should stop demanding that they are. The main point is, the two different options are available to everyone, use black ice or don’t but stop whining about all building materials being the same when the degree in difficulty of gathering resources and limited experience gained from crafting is not the same.

People that prefer to take the harder more time-consuming route to build in a way they find more aesthetically pleasing will NOT be affected in ANY way by making the building materials the same cost, therefore should not be opposed to any discussion that encourages less disparity between them.

This is not all about those that use something other than black ice (although many want to make it such), this is about everyone so let’s look at the reverse of what you just stated.

I personally tend to prefer Turanian probably 85% of the time as I do find it aesthetically pleasing. Now, if I start whining that I want my turanian nerfed so that the cost and time is equal to black ice (which I have already outlined is not the same in difficulty to gather and experience gained from crafting) then there is a risk that the devs could simply choose to make ALL building options the same material and time as Turanian so I just made it more difficult for everyone that uses black ice or wants to use black ice at some point simply because I was feeling entitled to the exact same benefits on an entirely different building option that I already HAD the option of using myself.

Isn’t that odd, I actually use something other than black ice and yet, I can see that these two products are different and therefore should not have the same requirements when it comes to resources and time crafting. People need to stop acting entitled and maybe they would see the differences as well.

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“The costs are fine and I also hate orphans and puppies”

But then without “and I also hate orphans and puppies” (I know you have your opinion but it does n’t mean we hate both these things)

Black-Ice is ment for end game it should be much harder to get for low levels

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You cant compare it ik.

But your base looks tiny, but u’ve used material to reinforce it, that’ material wise it is big, if you know what I mean.

I have…black ice is still faster. Because insulated can be crafted straight from harvested dry wood from bark runs and resin from Asagarth/Mounds area to minimize the need to dry wood. On top of that you get extra dry wood when you dry. And Resin is not hard to get 1000 in 15 minutes.

Yes we get it Ceronesthes, you created this entire thread because you want to take two different building products (yes different, read my last post right above) and demand that they be the exact same because you find one of the DLC patterns more aesthetically pleasing than the black ice that you are currently using due to it being easier to use at your current level and point in game.

Your bias showed on details left out in your OP, the speculation times and stats on of some of your figures, and the tacky facetious addition of ‘hating puppies’ to the current requirements- the one poll choice you personally vehemently disagree with.

I will not waste my time unproductively going back on forth on your personal bias but if you have any questions regarding the points in my response, feel free to ask away.

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