Healers need help! An idea to make them better without making them mandatory


#56

i have never played a healer in here so i didn’t know about this. but if the game allows and even forces the classic tank/dps/healer party for dungeon queuing, telling someone who wants to play a healer to make his own private group doesn’t really solve the issue.
the game either stops asking for specific roles when in queue or all roles have to be needed for a dungeon to work, one of those 2 things have to happen.


#57

i have never played a healer in here so i didn’t know about this. but if the game allows and even forces the classic tank/dps/healer party for dungeon queuing, telling someone who wants to play a healer to make his own private group doesn’t really solve the issue.

No, of course not. But it’s the only thing that guarantees right now that healers won’t be harassed.

the game either stops asking for specific roles when in queue or all roles have to be needed for a dungeon to work, one of those 2 things have to happen.

This is why I said upthread maybe Group Finder should be be tinkered. I have little faith in Funcom to mull over and implement a new meta, especially in a timely manner. If that is the case, then perhaps it is more resource-efficient to look at the tools they already have in place and modify them as necessary?

That said, though, I agree with you.


#58

This is all futile. Sustain tanking just needs to be put down like a rabid dog and higher e-levels damage, threat and healing outputs adjusted but I lack the confidence for them to do that at this point.


#59

I have played a healer. And more and more I was not only asked but sometimes “adviced” to switch to DPS after I joined a dungeon group as healer.

Leveling up the healer gear took a lot of time (talismans and weapons for healing, additional glyphs and signets). And it feeled more and more like a big waste of time as I chose a role that is actually useless (I won’t level up this gear only for NY). Finally I cancelled my patron subscription. Maybe I will take a look in some month if anything changes or there is new content to play as single player.

But nevertheless I wish you all fun and a good time.


#60

We’re beating a dead horse here. The problem isn’t with healing or sustain tanking. The problem is the nature of most encounters being too simple. Nearly everything is a tank and spank with hardly any mechanics. It’s a fundamental issue with how the encounters are designed.


#61

Couldn’t agree more.
Used to be healer in TSW and continued to be same on SWL. But after I’ve seen what tanking is all about now, the healer role got a huge frustration factor attached to it.

I wanted to experiment a bit with the heal-abilities (not so much of choices sadly), joined some Dungeons but I didn’t get to test it, as every Tank I’ve met was straight up sustain tanking. Gave me all of the frustration possible.

Since Funcom is offering the healer-role in this game, just as DPS and Tank, they should do something about it. Either changing the sustain tank thing or the inc damage in general so the healer is needed and doesn’t feel like totally useless. Not every player (especially people picking the healer role) does know about the sustain meta, so when they enter a dungeon and getting asked to DPS (or buff bot) over and over, no matter when they join, they getting fed up with it. Surely some do adapt, but not everyone and it’s sad, for me as a healer with a passion, to see where this is going.
I’d not even say “put down the entire substain tanking”, it can remain, but make some changes about it, so every role gets its use in this game.

I found it quite shocking to hear “no one heals in a dungeon” so many times. Luckily my hubby is not always sustain tanking, so I can have a bit of a good healing time but honestly it’s just sad :<

Have a great one!

/Dav


#62

Been reading through this topic and it’s kinda interesting to me. I don’t see the level of ‘useless healer’ that people are referring to. In the last 50-odd dungeons I’ve done, I can think of only 2 times when it’s been suggested I go DPS, and about the same where I’ve not been told but have been stood around doing nothing. (Bear in mind, this is just my experience…I don’t doubt that some others in this topic have had it much more)

Now I absolutely believe that sustain tanking lessens the need for pure healing - and indeed, I don’t slot 6 healing abilities. But there’s so much that healers can do aside from adding more health back. Some people above have spoken negatively about the idea of healers being more used for buffs, but I like doing that.

I really see the role as a general support - essentially taking care of everything that gets in the way of tanks and DPS doing their roles to the best they can. That’s why I provide attack buffs, extra protection and barriers as well as restoring health and cleansing. If anything, I’d like to see more utilities as part of the healing weapons - but then again, that would only suit my style and probably wouldn’t work for everyone.

The initial idea from this topic is a pretty good one. Of course, mechanics would need to be worked out, but I would welcome the idea to further support the rest of the team. Only downside for me is that it would make Savagery completely irrelevant, but replacing that with something that, say, increases critical chance would make that up!


#64

I am also new to the game, maybe 10 weeks now I think. I have heal weapons, fist and blood. Fist can be used to do dps or heal and I make use of both I have no problem swapping out some dps and heal skills depending on what me and my friend are fighting.

I get confused when I read issues around healing/dps/tanking. My personal opinion, healer is there to cleanse/heal if needed. I do not want people to take lots of damage so I can use my heal skills, I see a group running a dungeon as a team activity. All helping each other to get through it.

People work on upgrading gear, the higher level the gear gets the easier any dungeon will be, the less healing is needed. To me, less healing required is good it means the team/group is doing well. The fact that my heals are not needed very much is not going to chase me away from the game, I can apply as healer then adapt to what group needs.


#65

Your making statements like “less healing needed” the correct statement is absolutely no healing needed and in 99% of cases not even cleanse. Tank does all. This is not apparent until later in game though.


#66

Yes I say less healing because all people can make a mistake, not everyone is so well geared and not everyone, like me, is so good at avoiding things.


#67

:grin:When some groups speed run HR3, they stand in fire with a healer all the time to get rid of the trouble of moving platform . Just for tactically life quality improvement. Just like when people were not so over geared in e5 Polaris 3.


#68

for the dps i can see your point. Unless there running cruel delight.


#69

Well if you’re new to the game, the Story Mode dungeons don’t even have roles. The damage in those are tuned so low you need to go AFK to die.

Well in higher level dungeons, if you’re not the tank and you make a mistake and get hit, you’re a thin red paste. This was true back in TSW as well in NM dungeons as well. Unless it was a fight with forced damage to the team (MFA6 scorpion burrow attack for example) then you threw on just enough HP to not die. As for the tank, healing output is not anywhere near damage output at higher e-level dungeons so if you make a mistake, you’re dead.


#70

We didn’t face this issue in TSW coz even with Healtanks and leechtanks etc, the builds were used for very little of the entire dungeons on offer. You also formed your own groups so you all knew before you entered that dungeon what your role was, what was expected and indeed - what dungeon you were doing.

Now it’s pot luck, you don’t know who you will be with or what dungeon - despite the 3 roles required to pop the dungeon from the AF dictating what is perceived as “Required” - these have been compromised and as healer - If you have chosen to lvl and play the role, encompassing the gear into your choice of playstyle - You will face a certain degree of actual harassment. No lie.

Let me give you a few examples of comments i have recieved myself on various toons and what i have witnessed towards others while i was DPS.
“Delete your gear/toon/build it’s useless”
“you are not needed”
“E5 is NOT the place for healing”
"Are you healing? vote kick initiated
Tanks refusing to move and go afk in the corner somewhere because a healer can’t do the dps role.
Tanks initiating vote retreat before they’ve even done anything because they didn’t like dungeon or healer present.
Yes and more, and the current trend to vote kick the healer before they’ve even set foot near the first boss is absolutely hideous behaviour.
Not all tanks - only some.

And these problems are from two things - inaccurate role selections and random dungeon.

Now the thing is, i have a main toon who is dedicated healer. she was created to be such a way. And why not, All talismans and signets and weapons are dedicated to being the best i can possibly be in fulfilling that role. This includes bringing cleanses, buffs, purges etc and equipped as necessary.

The myth that healers are not needed is just a myth, there are countless times where i have seen the request for a healer in the LFG. Which means someones spreading lies about them not being needed at all in the current state and most often they are poked fun at by the mere mention of their existence, perpetuating the myth further and embedding it into the psyche of those witnessing the chatter.

The misconception that a healer “only heals” is just that. However, Meta would make a useless DPS with not enough hit rating to be even adequate DPS. I have tried, and all i see are glances. Not only that but with her being dedicated to the role, there were no other weapons or talismans or sigents i levelled for her because inv space and time and gear upgrading costs - you need to do it right and this is why you have people only lvling one set of gear that does all things, you know - the jack of all trades and master of none thing that is so terribly told to others in game is rife.

So, Demanding this of someone in this type of role is telling them to be sub par. Most often it is demanded and never asked of them. Most often it is the sustain tank that actually can not accommodate the healer even tho they are asking the healer to be able to do something they did not sign up for or are able to do.

But the biggest trick pulled on us all was allowing sustain tanking to be used in the lower dungeons where it is not even needed at all. It’s lazy for one and disrespectful for another. And this needs to stop. It’s bad enough that new players or on level players can’t do their chosen tiers properly because of overgeared folks ruining the chance of learning anything without the added addition of having roles trivialised or taken away because of unnecessary builds being used in places they shouldn’t be, while trying to pretend to others that it’s someone else who isn’t needed.

Again - the problem here is with role selection from the start.

When you sign up to dungeons on AF then you click the roles you are able to do - I’ve seen dungeons where the healer role was filled by a dps coz they thought by the current standards that it was not needed and they couldn’t actually heal at all. I’ve seen this in NYR’s with DPS queing as tank because they didn’t think they were actually needed in E1 either, thinking someone would just be able to step up to the mark once in there. It baffles me how it got like this it really does. But then having said that - it also doesn’t surprise me that it got like this since there is a lot of misinfo flying around that filters down like a game of Chinese whispers until the end result is just a complete mess. and you have people leaving the game because they keep facing teh same problems and issues.

When you sign in the pug que AF you forgo the right to demand anything from anyone - but you had best make sure you can fill the roles you signed up for - that is all that is expected and all that should be expected.

To combat the wonky pot luck experience we all receive in the pug que i suggest the following:

A change to the role selections with some additions - because currently what we have is the base form of the trinity - and tbh - that is what is expected when selecting them as it stands at present but not an accurate reflection of what the roles actually are in SWL using the activity finder.

Tank
Sustain Tank (added with description)
DD
Support (renamed with additional description)

Sustain tank overrides the support option so does not require the role to be selected to pop - but you would need four dps to make the 5 man grp (since that is what is their usual quota)
The tank option would require the support option to be filled to fill a 5 man group - adhering to the traditional trinity sense.

This would avoid the confrontations folk have received by unsavoury individuals who berate others for their chosen roles and have a clear and more accurate role selection procedure.

There can be no confusion, nor misunderstanding, nor expectation that you would be doing something you can not.

A person who signed as sustain tank would then have to consider the fact that - since they do not require the healer/support role and choose this as role selection, that they can and are sure they are ready for it. Avoiding the need to request anything from anyone once in the dungeon. (The most of the problems arise because of one or another not being able to accommodate the others wishes and its here that needs addressed if sustain tanking method is to stay and prejudice on all sides a non issue)
They could always sign for both tank/sustain and whichever pops means there is a healer present and they go the regular tank route. Again, you know right off the bat what is expected of you and you signed for it to begin with.

Needless to say - a DPS and a Healer/support roles - already know what is expected of them.

To add to this i would also like to see a buff to the laceration signets to make them more useful for DPS in dungeons/raids rather than cruel delights which are actually more suited in description to solo things like scenarios.

There are dedicated talismans and signets/weapons for DPS, there are dedicated talismans and signets/weapons for Healing/support
This leads me to believe that creating the pure trinity builds is a viable option and should be treated as such.
Too much mixin it up means people are carrying stuff others could have carried anyway sometimes. Again that harks back to TSW when we formed our own groups and knew before going anywhere who did what etc And so private groups here in SWL already know who is what and what they can and can’t do. You can’t expect that from the Pug Que which is where you see these problems. For SWL community to thrive - this needs addressed.
I would like to say that there are dedicated Talismans Signets/Weapons for tanks too - but from what i can see, it’s not in the same vain as what is offered to DPS/healers - and it should be. There needs to be an even spread amongst the roles of weapons, talismans and signets on offer that actually benefit the role it’s intended for.


#72

LOL GW2
And thank you.
I’m tired of the whole debacle when it’s clear that sustain tanking is useful but not necessary in certain places and shouldn’t be used as a means of alienating other players and it has done, not just healers, but all people suffer as a result.
It’s powerful to the extent that it has a knock on effect to the playerbase as a whole and is often abused. Making it a tactic that also abuses the activity finder through the current role selections. Since it favours grps over single qued players. A duo of Sustain tank and DPS can que as all 3 roles and pick up the other 3 dps from the AF - in effect - locking out a single qued healer from ever getting a pop at a dungeon.
In a low pop game, it’s unfair and damaging.
It’s bad enough that we have 10 tiers in a low pop game.

It’s also clear that Funcom may not have the resources nor the budget to re balance or fix anything.
But since they seem to be able to tweak systems - a revamp of the AF is the best solution which encompasses ALL of the current viable roles used.

And it’s the activity finder that’s causing the issue firstly and then the individual secondly.
We can’t do anything about the people who are hideous to others except highlight to them that they are being so and that is a community aspect. I’m confident in our community that they wouldn’t stand by and let others be manipulated or bullied into doing things they don’t find enjoyable, because ultimately - they will just leave the game. And you can’t profess to care about the game or the community if you let it slide or partake in such behaviours.
And burying heads in the sand or denying the issue that is clearly causing a problem is doing nobody any favours either.


#73

It is still possible to do your own groups in SWL. LFG was a feature in the last couple of months of TSW. Altogether, as in any game where some behaviours in the LFG tool are not ideal, a solution is to do private groups.

Not really, those are more of an aggravating factor than the root of the issue.

I guess some people have some dedicated sustain-tanks with dps gear and not the time to re-gear 4 or 5 talisman either.

Then why not grouping with them? It seems there is some offers fro private groups, why go LFG?

That’s is indeed group expectations vs personnal expectations. From the group view point, in those groups, you are not sub par but more useful by switching to dps. Again that could be solved by going private group.

You mean like group member insisting to play one way when the 3 others want to play another way? I think that can cut both ways.

People faking roles for queue purpose is not really new. Fake tanks or healer queuing in NYR E1 i have seen since relaunch (albeit not very often overall, but one evening in particular all the dps in NYR E1 queue i had couldnt dps properly).

Do you think the healers queue will pop? I really wonder, as, if it is true, then that means you have plenty of non-sustain tanks in game. If that is true, there is a community based solution that could be really quicker to implement than a change to the queue system (eg. from a chat channel a la noobmares for people to find non-sustain tanks or even a guild or even just go chat to form a group). If you dont have penty of non sustain tanks then that wont change anything.

Could we have an option to have DDs putting out more than 10 times their IP dps wise as well?

Private groups can solve a lot of it already. And if there is just not enough non sustain tanks then it wont solve it anyhow.

You mean one of the most succesful F2P in the West? :thinking: I wished.

Look i dont want to be that guy here… i actually contemplated rolling a healer at the relaunch, but after playing like a dozen of dungeons and following meta developping amongst friend list it became very clear that sustain tanking was possible. Being possible it was obvious it would become meta (as in the most effcient way to achieve a goal - ie finishing the dungeon and gearing). We are not in TSW anymore, where it was easy to have multiple sets of talisman for different roles even sub optimal ones. And given the effort needed to gear in SWL I just chose to scrap the heal gear and develop my tank and dps gear. It is possible sustain tanking became a more prominent issue because of the population thinning quite a lot since launch.

At the end of the day, the problem wont go away if the population is not growing back. Creating a new type of queue is nto going to shift existing mentalities much, if anything it will probably make the healers queue just never pops. The solution can only come by a rebalance of the dungeon bosses making them in such a way that the fact of having a heal can make sense and that the lost dps doesnt increase the fight length by 5 minutes. It may make the endgame grind slightly more enjoyable and as a result increase a lot the retention of players. And in turn decrease the level of BS healers are facing in queues.

That said I thought people were playing this game for the story mostly. From what i understood that is what FC want people to come and spend money for. For endgame PVP or PVE, there are a lot of better alternatives in the market.


#75

You mistake one thing - there are no resources for this. It’s too much work to go through every boss and see how it works in relation to each fight on each level in each tier in all the dungeons without it effecting somewhere else in the game. Adding the option to the group finder is the only solution.

This is the last thing you should be saying to anyone and indeed it was. Shamefully you are called Real Secret Worlder?

But this ^^ LoL - is whats called burying your head in the sand. You are being that guy that allows something that is not needed to become something that is the most damaging and actually flies in the face of the actual visual descriptions set out in the roles and gear currently in game.
Now you really need to sit and think about each point you quoted and look at it again - without blinkers and without prejudice or bias. But you did prove my points perfectly. Thank you.

As you can see, this is the kind of mindset people are up against now in SWL. It’s clear to see in each response whether its direct or misquoted is either misunderstanding or just plain hypocritical and exclusive - which is not inclusive.


#76

Yes i completely agree. And that is the reason why i was saying the only way out is to rebalance dungeons bosses.

I agree too. But my crush was on the older daughter, not her siblings.


#77

Not being a dev, i don’t know if changing the queue is as simple as it looks like and less resource incentive than to spend time on metrics to recalibrate th hp and damage output. Anyhow, altogether it is not my fault if they use the money i gave them to develop a mystery new project rather than developping this one. The resource at FC level are plenty. They are making a choice to use them as they want. At the end of the day, creating a new queue will not save healing. It can be a bandaid but at the root is a balance issue, which if is not fixed will always leave “healers” as the 5th wheel of the car.

Really? I should lie? Pretend the endgame is the best on the market (better than TSW?!) and issues will magically go away and ppl come back to play the game?

Yes Real Secret Worlder not a Real Secret World Legender. Are you some kind of big Moth yourself? :thinking:

You mean by not playing dungeons anymore in SWL because they bore me? Or because the little i played i was mostly tanking with healers, so that could have give them the wrong impression they were needed and thus gearing a role not needed? Ok you are right, i ll make sure to go sustain next time i ll log and do a dungeon. :slight_smile:

Please lead by example :slight_smile: and you are welcome.

If what you mean by that is that the efficiency principle is driving mmo’s meta, well, yeah it is. If you mean that I am actually annoyed by healers, well, sorry to disapoint you but the only ppl i ever voted to kick out of a dungeon in SWL were dps. Generally i dont mind spending more time if the group manage to finish the dungeon. But if we wipe 10 times on a boss because we lack dps or because someone is not pulling their weight, then i ll ask them to kick me or vote retreat.
That said, there is nothing new with SWL lfg tool and kick process. The exact same things are happening in other games and people are getting kicked when using lfg tool based on arbitrary judgements (because level, because gear, because someone is a noob, etc). The quickest answer tend to be the same in all those game: dont use lfg and go “private” group.

So yes i find it silly that healing is not valuable in the game. But creating a new queue is not going to make it more valuable. Only balance change can do that. And, as you are saying, they decided to allow resources differently (possibly wisely, idk) so basically you are probably :nut_and_bolt: and the game is probably :coffin: on the long run.


#78

There is no request to re-create the whole que system. Just one addition. Sustain tanking. This will lock the option of healer from being picked into the sustain group - because as it stands the descriptions states directly from the activity finder that the “healing role” is required for the dungeon - which as we know, for sustain tank, is false.
This then creates a problem - when a healer is picked for the group but is faced with not being needed. If it’s a sole healer and a sole sustain tank - then the group is at a loss as a whole - this is damaging, especially when sustain tanking is being used in lower dungeons where it is NOT necessary - creating the impression to healers that it is them who is not needed when it is quite the opposite. it’s more than frustrating and leads to animosity between individuals and eventually filters into it being a problem with the classes themselves.

Is it the fault of funcom - yes, OFC it is, we all know that.
It is also the fault of the players who are actively making it happen also. Like i said, you use AF and you forgo the right to demand anything, you can only accommodate as you see fit, but it’s impossible if you can not due to gear or w/e other reason - this goes for all concerned on all sides in all parties.

Private grouping is a NON ISSUE here and is irrelevant. So is using LFG by responding to requests or actively seeking them yourself. This i am not discussing because as you know - it’s not an issue here.
The problem only arises from using the activity finder because of inaccurate role descriptions and then expectations.

When you look at what funcom have given us as regards updates, patches, fixes etc. The only content we had was SA and the few missions recently. As soon as SA was done the whole team and i mean all of them, were moved elsewhere - this is your “resources” - the only ones left are people who can add systems such as Agent network and the tweaks we see to those systems and small fixes. This is how it looks to me at least. So the suggestion of tweaking the Que process seems far easier to manage than a re-balancing of every boss, in every dungeon, to react with each players actions without it effecting how those actions are then reacting elsewhere in game.
I can give the recent “stationary bosses targeting random people for no reason and killing them” bug as an example of what happens when they try to re-balance 1 or 2 bosses in a dungeon that has knock on effects elsewhere because they adhere to the same rules. It’s almost like they share codes and work from what shared codes they have rather than having individual codes each to work with. If that makes sense.

I also have no idea how this all works or what is easier than the other, but for me - on my end. It looks the most simplistic of options and it does NOT exclude anyone but actually INCLUDES sustain tanking as a viable option in the Activity Finder.

I hope this makes it more clear to you.
It is, for me, where i see the problem most.
It is not present anywhere else in game and only presents itself between two roles when put together with the wrong expectation and neither can fulfil the others wish (from some it’s a hideous demand)
Continuing to ignore this aspect is wrong.
You must look at it as a whole picture that includes everyone and how each one interacts with each other on an inter-player level. We can’t do anything about asshats except report and pull them up for being douchbags to each other, but we can try and make it better by offering valid options.