Healers need help! An idea to make them better without making them mandatory


#42

I don’t think so. It would have to be implemented in a very specific way I think. Consider some scenarios.

  1. Overhealing is individually tallied. A healer spamming group heals is required to buff the DPS. However the tank is not getting overhealing, because they are still getting hurt regularly. They get less overhealing, thus their buffed DPS is mostly nonexistant which means the DPS are doing buffed damage and the tank is rarely doing so.

  2. Overhealing is groupwide. This would be curious to implement, but probably superior to the first because the healer can simply put their most powerful heals on the tank continuously, and when they are topped off, the group gets overcharge.

However, what happens when say a DPS is partially wounded and it isn’t a critical importance to heal them, so the healer ignores it? Do they not get the buff? This is then easily asked of the tank. What happens when the tank is not full, but the DPS are, and there is overcharge to spread around?

Further, how does it properly spread around? Lets say there is a built up 30k overcharge, the tank hits a basic for ~1000 damage, does 2000. The 3 DPS each hit with a power ability for 10000 damage, and with overcharge do almost 20k each. Does the tank keep aggro or does the boss eat a DPS from the burst? Or lets say the overcharge is only 10k that the healer can reliably sustain on the tank, but each GCD, its one DPS that fires a split second before the tank, and uses the entire pool while the tank then never gets any of it? Similarly imagine any scenario where the tank can’t do DPS because they have to move, while DPS is burning through overcharge.

  1. Overcharge doesn’t affect aggro. That might be an odd way to do things, from a technical standpoint, to have it added separately somehow, and be potentially exploitable. However, it would of course avoid the issue entirely, independent of how it works.

I don’t know the best way to even implement this, but aggro is definitely an issue depending on how it is implemented and how the numbers work.

So now some more general questions. What about blood DPS, are they left out? What about AR who messes up a grenade and damages theirself? Or any other weapon that can self damage?

How does reap essence work (the AR heal that heals whoever shoots the target, if I got the name wrong?) How about blood shields, how does overcharge calculate there?

How about PVP, how would this work there? Should it? What is the state of healing in Shambala PVP?

And finally, realistically, what kind of HPS numbers can a healer pull? Would this even be viable? I have the high suspicion that the healer would still be better off as a 4th DPS, and may not even be able to sustain HPS necessary to fully buff a single DPS.


#43

I don’t know the best way to even implement this, but aggro is definitely an issue depending on how it is implemented and how the numbers work.

The extra damage would not cause aggro, the healing generates aggro as if it went to someone’s health bar.

So now some more general questions. What about blood DPS, are they left out? What about AR who messes up a grenade and damages theirself? Or any other weapon that can self damage?

Blood would have a harder time retaining access to the overcharge bar with all its self damage, but healers just have to deal with that to generate an overcharge on blood characters, same as they have to deal with it to keep blood characters alive. Self damage would not go up with overcharge as it is based on percentiles and not CP anyways.

How does reap essence work (the AR heal that heals whoever shoots the target, if I got the name wrong?) How about blood shields, how does overcharge calculate there?

Leeching does fill up your overcharge bar. Blood shields don’t add to the bar, but since they make it easier to retain a full health bar they do help you retain the overcharge bonus.

How about PVP, how would this work there? Should it? What is the state of healing in Shambala PVP?

It would work in PvP. You shouldn’t let people unload on you while at full health in PvP though, so this will only be a problem if you’re already being overwhelmed.

Overcharge would quickly dissipate when out of combat, the same way that health very rapidly recharges your overcharge very quickly disappears. When you take damage while you have overcharge you’d start losing the bar as well if you’re not brought back to full health within a few seconds. You’d see the bar flash after maybe 2 seconds and start to drain if your character remains damaged. The healer needs to be on the ball.

As far as “Can this even be up full time?” goes: No, and it isn’t meant to be. This isn’t supposed to be a permanent 100% damage buff that healers enable, this is very specifically capped by the amount of healing they can do because it’s supposed to retain all the granularity of healing numbers so that the gear progression for healers matters.


#44

This conclusion seems a bit too strong.

Let’s have a look at ESO. The dungeon system (not speaking of raids) in ESO is basically splitted between Normal and Vet dungeons (each dungeon have 2 versions) and broadly you have two types of dungeons non-DLC (two third) and DLC ones (one third) (DLC ones being more demanding both in term of mecanichs and outputs). With max level toons you can play most of the content with 1 tank 3 dpses and no heal (for non DLC dungeosn you dont even really need a tank if you know what what you do). With engame but not maxed out toons, you can probably run all non DLC dungeons without a heal or a tank. That means that most of the available content you dont really need a heal. Still people are using healers 90% of the time when running through lfg. The reason may be because it is actually quite easy to switch gear and build or maybe just because the population being much much bigger, you have a lot of different type of tanks, level of characters etc.

That said, from a resource point of view, i dont know which would be the easier of (1) reviewing hp and damage outputs of 30+ bosses to make space for healers and make boss non-hp’spongy or (2) create a brand new system on top of it all an make sure it is working as intended. Given devs should have access to plenty of data i imagine option (1) would be easier to implement.

Finally does it even make sense to implement any option if the population is not increased significantly?


#45

This conclusion seems a bit too strong.

I think it’s the only logical conclusion.

Think about it this way: If you can kill an enemy before you run out of health getting heals doesn’t really help you. Your health simply resets after the fight, so there is no real benefit to having a healer. If you can’t kill an enemy before you run out of health then you need a healer, you simply can’t do it without those heals.

Now there are cases where whether or not you win before you run out of health isn’t certain, like what you’re seeing in ESO. You might be able to DPS the boss down before anyone needs dedicated healing, but maybe someone fails to dodge an AOE or an add beats on a DPS for a little too long and suddenly a heal is required to get through the fight. Not a big deal in ESO either since you can be good at healing and damage at the same time.

So, you can have a situation where it’s not 100% win or 100% lose without a healer, but a chance that either one will happen. Those are the only situations where a healer is useful but not mandatory. Those are also the most difficult of all situations to create on purpose though, since they depend on making something just hard enough that people won’t be so confident they can do it that they don’t take the safety measure of having a healer, but not so likely to fail that it becomes a liability not to have one. The only reason this works OK in ESO is because you can easily have enough healing to provide that safety while still being a damage dealer as well, so it’s not really a big loss to have someone who can jump to healing if needed.


#46

Ok that may run counter my previous argumentation :slight_smile: but dont forget “shards”, healer are creatures sent by heavens cause they prevent dps to have to slot self healing and increase capacity to sustain dps too.

Yes indeed, but having a healer around may permit to shorten the fight a lot more by allowing dps to go full dps rather than slotting shields etc. But yes that is right.

Now it is not that i don’t agree with that, however it was working in TSW so they have a model design they could use as a fallback.

That said, “LF healer for vCoA1” just appeared on my screen :stuck_out_tongue:


#47

I think it worked in TSW cause it wasn’t a matter of 3dps -> dungeon takes 45min, 4dps -> 30min. It was “6 minutes with a leecher, 7 minutes with a fist/blood healer”. So getting the ideal tank/healer setup mattered less.


#48

+1
HP’sponginess needs to be reviewed along with damage output and not only damage output :slight_smile:


#49

What if the damage bonus was not multiplicative but rather additive. I can understand there being aggro concerns specifically with burst on a model such as described (ie. double damage) but it could also be additive therefore in this example the dps would be dealing say 1000 more damage per hit while the tank would also be dealing 1000 more damage per hit this would generate no changes in the aggro table. What this value of extra damage is based on could be determined in a number of ways but would ultimately be tied to the 1 second gcd.


#50

Either one works, as long as there is a direct correlation between HP put in to damage added, so that the granularity of the healing numbers is retained.

The problem with a flat number would be that it might hit a point where a healer can put more points in than are ever taken out, rather than having the consumption go up with the power of the DPSer so it stays somewhat even throughout the power progression of the group.


#51

Healer or no healer, an average on-level tank has to dedicate 2-3 mitigation abilities to dampen the incoming damage. I’m okay with that, gives the tank something more to worry about. However, HP% based tank self-healing on top of that is way too powerful for healers to ever be relevant as healers. I can understand that OP’s suggestion arises from this realization. It’s also an acceptance of (in my opinion) broken design and an attempt at circumventing it rather than addressing it.

This change makes the act of healing more useful, but it transforms the healer role into a pseudo-DPS role. That’s the second acceptance of broken design: dungeon bosses have way too much health and you do need a 4th DPS in order to make dungeon runs not tedious. Instead of addressing that, you’re yielding to it and making the healer fill that 4th DPS role to fit in.

It’s not a bad suggestion, in that it would definitely make healers desirable. It just feels like a massive compromise rather than an actual solution.


#52

That seems backwards, and would require this damage to be coded differently, somehow, and might have a strange effect on parsing it all out. Healing aggro is already cut in half in this game, I believe. In any case, presuming doing this doesn’t muck it all up, it would prevent aggro issues.

This would definitely make blood DPS highly unwanted in any dungeon/raid scenario, because they either need to continuously be shielded, or they don’t get their damage bonus. It has to be changed to work with blood, or blood has to be changed. You can’t penalize blood users for increasing their damage output using the blood mechanic, which actually decreases their damage output with overcharge. I’d also say healers largely ignore blood DPS, because it is pointless to try and heal them, unless its a blood healer that can put a shield on them.

Well again, blood needs reworked to work with this. Blood shields do far less healing, but instead offer shielding, thus making a blood healer a poor choice for this overcharge mechanic since they would be building overcharge far slower.

That’s an interesting idea, but the numbers then have to reflect a net benefit to bringing a healer vs them going DPS.

You could possibly have it parcel out overcharge damage divide it evenly by the rest of the people in the team, but that requires the team model of overcharge, and the OP seems to want an individual model by virtue of restricting blood DPS when damaged.

Of course if it is precoded to not generate aggro it doesn’t matter how to divide it to prevent aggro issues.


#53

At this point changing the current meta is probably beyond funcom’s budget for SWL. And it is not a game where balance is really important, it doesn’t impact too much how you experience the story and in the end that’s the only thing that matters.


#54

Sad but true.


#55

Whilst im not sure if an overcharge part of healing would be a good idea or not, I do like the fact someone is suggesting a way to make a healer viable again without shouting for nurfs to other classes :slight_smile:


#56

i have never played a healer in here so i didn’t know about this. but if the game allows and even forces the classic tank/dps/healer party for dungeon queuing, telling someone who wants to play a healer to make his own private group doesn’t really solve the issue.
the game either stops asking for specific roles when in queue or all roles have to be needed for a dungeon to work, one of those 2 things have to happen.


#57

i have never played a healer in here so i didn’t know about this. but if the game allows and even forces the classic tank/dps/healer party for dungeon queuing, telling someone who wants to play a healer to make his own private group doesn’t really solve the issue.

No, of course not. But it’s the only thing that guarantees right now that healers won’t be harassed.

the game either stops asking for specific roles when in queue or all roles have to be needed for a dungeon to work, one of those 2 things have to happen.

This is why I said upthread maybe Group Finder should be be tinkered. I have little faith in Funcom to mull over and implement a new meta, especially in a timely manner. If that is the case, then perhaps it is more resource-efficient to look at the tools they already have in place and modify them as necessary?

That said, though, I agree with you.


#58

This is all futile. Sustain tanking just needs to be put down like a rabid dog and higher e-levels damage, threat and healing outputs adjusted but I lack the confidence for them to do that at this point.


#59

I have played a healer. And more and more I was not only asked but sometimes “adviced” to switch to DPS after I joined a dungeon group as healer.

Leveling up the healer gear took a lot of time (talismans and weapons for healing, additional glyphs and signets). And it feeled more and more like a big waste of time as I chose a role that is actually useless (I won’t level up this gear only for NY). Finally I cancelled my patron subscription. Maybe I will take a look in some month if anything changes or there is new content to play as single player.

But nevertheless I wish you all fun and a good time.


#60

We’re beating a dead horse here. The problem isn’t with healing or sustain tanking. The problem is the nature of most encounters being too simple. Nearly everything is a tank and spank with hardly any mechanics. It’s a fundamental issue with how the encounters are designed.


#61

Couldn’t agree more.
Used to be healer in TSW and continued to be same on SWL. But after I’ve seen what tanking is all about now, the healer role got a huge frustration factor attached to it.

I wanted to experiment a bit with the heal-abilities (not so much of choices sadly), joined some Dungeons but I didn’t get to test it, as every Tank I’ve met was straight up sustain tanking. Gave me all of the frustration possible.

Since Funcom is offering the healer-role in this game, just as DPS and Tank, they should do something about it. Either changing the sustain tank thing or the inc damage in general so the healer is needed and doesn’t feel like totally useless. Not every player (especially people picking the healer role) does know about the sustain meta, so when they enter a dungeon and getting asked to DPS (or buff bot) over and over, no matter when they join, they getting fed up with it. Surely some do adapt, but not everyone and it’s sad, for me as a healer with a passion, to see where this is going.
I’d not even say “put down the entire substain tanking”, it can remain, but make some changes about it, so every role gets its use in this game.

I found it quite shocking to hear “no one heals in a dungeon” so many times. Luckily my hubby is not always sustain tanking, so I can have a bit of a good healing time but honestly it’s just sad :<

Have a great one!

/Dav