Healers need help! An idea to make them better without making them mandatory


#70

We didn’t face this issue in TSW coz even with Healtanks and leechtanks etc, the builds were used for very little of the entire dungeons on offer. You also formed your own groups so you all knew before you entered that dungeon what your role was, what was expected and indeed - what dungeon you were doing.

Now it’s pot luck, you don’t know who you will be with or what dungeon - despite the 3 roles required to pop the dungeon from the AF dictating what is perceived as “Required” - these have been compromised and as healer - If you have chosen to lvl and play the role, encompassing the gear into your choice of playstyle - You will face a certain degree of actual harassment. No lie.

Let me give you a few examples of comments i have recieved myself on various toons and what i have witnessed towards others while i was DPS.
“Delete your gear/toon/build it’s useless”
“you are not needed”
“E5 is NOT the place for healing”
"Are you healing? vote kick initiated
Tanks refusing to move and go afk in the corner somewhere because a healer can’t do the dps role.
Tanks initiating vote retreat before they’ve even done anything because they didn’t like dungeon or healer present.
Yes and more, and the current trend to vote kick the healer before they’ve even set foot near the first boss is absolutely hideous behaviour.
Not all tanks - only some.

And these problems are from two things - inaccurate role selections and random dungeon.

Now the thing is, i have a main toon who is dedicated healer. she was created to be such a way. And why not, All talismans and signets and weapons are dedicated to being the best i can possibly be in fulfilling that role. This includes bringing cleanses, buffs, purges etc and equipped as necessary.

The myth that healers are not needed is just a myth, there are countless times where i have seen the request for a healer in the LFG. Which means someones spreading lies about them not being needed at all in the current state and most often they are poked fun at by the mere mention of their existence, perpetuating the myth further and embedding it into the psyche of those witnessing the chatter.

The misconception that a healer “only heals” is just that. However, Meta would make a useless DPS with not enough hit rating to be even adequate DPS. I have tried, and all i see are glances. Not only that but with her being dedicated to the role, there were no other weapons or talismans or sigents i levelled for her because inv space and time and gear upgrading costs - you need to do it right and this is why you have people only lvling one set of gear that does all things, you know - the jack of all trades and master of none thing that is so terribly told to others in game is rife.

So, Demanding this of someone in this type of role is telling them to be sub par. Most often it is demanded and never asked of them. Most often it is the sustain tank that actually can not accommodate the healer even tho they are asking the healer to be able to do something they did not sign up for or are able to do.

But the biggest trick pulled on us all was allowing sustain tanking to be used in the lower dungeons where it is not even needed at all. It’s lazy for one and disrespectful for another. And this needs to stop. It’s bad enough that new players or on level players can’t do their chosen tiers properly because of overgeared folks ruining the chance of learning anything without the added addition of having roles trivialised or taken away because of unnecessary builds being used in places they shouldn’t be, while trying to pretend to others that it’s someone else who isn’t needed.

Again - the problem here is with role selection from the start.

When you sign up to dungeons on AF then you click the roles you are able to do - I’ve seen dungeons where the healer role was filled by a dps coz they thought by the current standards that it was not needed and they couldn’t actually heal at all. I’ve seen this in NYR’s with DPS queing as tank because they didn’t think they were actually needed in E1 either, thinking someone would just be able to step up to the mark once in there. It baffles me how it got like this it really does. But then having said that - it also doesn’t surprise me that it got like this since there is a lot of misinfo flying around that filters down like a game of Chinese whispers until the end result is just a complete mess. and you have people leaving the game because they keep facing teh same problems and issues.

When you sign in the pug que AF you forgo the right to demand anything from anyone - but you had best make sure you can fill the roles you signed up for - that is all that is expected and all that should be expected.

To combat the wonky pot luck experience we all receive in the pug que i suggest the following:

A change to the role selections with some additions - because currently what we have is the base form of the trinity - and tbh - that is what is expected when selecting them as it stands at present but not an accurate reflection of what the roles actually are in SWL using the activity finder.

Tank
Sustain Tank (added with description)
DD
Support (renamed with additional description)

Sustain tank overrides the support option so does not require the role to be selected to pop - but you would need four dps to make the 5 man grp (since that is what is their usual quota)
The tank option would require the support option to be filled to fill a 5 man group - adhering to the traditional trinity sense.

This would avoid the confrontations folk have received by unsavoury individuals who berate others for their chosen roles and have a clear and more accurate role selection procedure.

There can be no confusion, nor misunderstanding, nor expectation that you would be doing something you can not.

A person who signed as sustain tank would then have to consider the fact that - since they do not require the healer/support role and choose this as role selection, that they can and are sure they are ready for it. Avoiding the need to request anything from anyone once in the dungeon. (The most of the problems arise because of one or another not being able to accommodate the others wishes and its here that needs addressed if sustain tanking method is to stay and prejudice on all sides a non issue)
They could always sign for both tank/sustain and whichever pops means there is a healer present and they go the regular tank route. Again, you know right off the bat what is expected of you and you signed for it to begin with.

Needless to say - a DPS and a Healer/support roles - already know what is expected of them.

To add to this i would also like to see a buff to the laceration signets to make them more useful for DPS in dungeons/raids rather than cruel delights which are actually more suited in description to solo things like scenarios.

There are dedicated talismans and signets/weapons for DPS, there are dedicated talismans and signets/weapons for Healing/support
This leads me to believe that creating the pure trinity builds is a viable option and should be treated as such.
Too much mixin it up means people are carrying stuff others could have carried anyway sometimes. Again that harks back to TSW when we formed our own groups and knew before going anywhere who did what etc And so private groups here in SWL already know who is what and what they can and can’t do. You can’t expect that from the Pug Que which is where you see these problems. For SWL community to thrive - this needs addressed.
I would like to say that there are dedicated Talismans Signets/Weapons for tanks too - but from what i can see, it’s not in the same vain as what is offered to DPS/healers - and it should be. There needs to be an even spread amongst the roles of weapons, talismans and signets on offer that actually benefit the role it’s intended for.


#72

LOL GW2
And thank you.
I’m tired of the whole debacle when it’s clear that sustain tanking is useful but not necessary in certain places and shouldn’t be used as a means of alienating other players and it has done, not just healers, but all people suffer as a result.
It’s powerful to the extent that it has a knock on effect to the playerbase as a whole and is often abused. Making it a tactic that also abuses the activity finder through the current role selections. Since it favours grps over single qued players. A duo of Sustain tank and DPS can que as all 3 roles and pick up the other 3 dps from the AF - in effect - locking out a single qued healer from ever getting a pop at a dungeon.
In a low pop game, it’s unfair and damaging.
It’s bad enough that we have 10 tiers in a low pop game.

It’s also clear that Funcom may not have the resources nor the budget to re balance or fix anything.
But since they seem to be able to tweak systems - a revamp of the AF is the best solution which encompasses ALL of the current viable roles used.

And it’s the activity finder that’s causing the issue firstly and then the individual secondly.
We can’t do anything about the people who are hideous to others except highlight to them that they are being so and that is a community aspect. I’m confident in our community that they wouldn’t stand by and let others be manipulated or bullied into doing things they don’t find enjoyable, because ultimately - they will just leave the game. And you can’t profess to care about the game or the community if you let it slide or partake in such behaviours.
And burying heads in the sand or denying the issue that is clearly causing a problem is doing nobody any favours either.


#73

It is still possible to do your own groups in SWL. LFG was a feature in the last couple of months of TSW. Altogether, as in any game where some behaviours in the LFG tool are not ideal, a solution is to do private groups.

Not really, those are more of an aggravating factor than the root of the issue.

I guess some people have some dedicated sustain-tanks with dps gear and not the time to re-gear 4 or 5 talisman either.

Then why not grouping with them? It seems there is some offers fro private groups, why go LFG?

That’s is indeed group expectations vs personnal expectations. From the group view point, in those groups, you are not sub par but more useful by switching to dps. Again that could be solved by going private group.

You mean like group member insisting to play one way when the 3 others want to play another way? I think that can cut both ways.

People faking roles for queue purpose is not really new. Fake tanks or healer queuing in NYR E1 i have seen since relaunch (albeit not very often overall, but one evening in particular all the dps in NYR E1 queue i had couldnt dps properly).

Do you think the healers queue will pop? I really wonder, as, if it is true, then that means you have plenty of non-sustain tanks in game. If that is true, there is a community based solution that could be really quicker to implement than a change to the queue system (eg. from a chat channel a la noobmares for people to find non-sustain tanks or even a guild or even just go chat to form a group). If you dont have penty of non sustain tanks then that wont change anything.

Could we have an option to have DDs putting out more than 10 times their IP dps wise as well?

Private groups can solve a lot of it already. And if there is just not enough non sustain tanks then it wont solve it anyhow.

You mean one of the most succesful F2P in the West? :thinking: I wished.

Look i dont want to be that guy here… i actually contemplated rolling a healer at the relaunch, but after playing like a dozen of dungeons and following meta developping amongst friend list it became very clear that sustain tanking was possible. Being possible it was obvious it would become meta (as in the most effcient way to achieve a goal - ie finishing the dungeon and gearing). We are not in TSW anymore, where it was easy to have multiple sets of talisman for different roles even sub optimal ones. And given the effort needed to gear in SWL I just chose to scrap the heal gear and develop my tank and dps gear. It is possible sustain tanking became a more prominent issue because of the population thinning quite a lot since launch.

At the end of the day, the problem wont go away if the population is not growing back. Creating a new type of queue is nto going to shift existing mentalities much, if anything it will probably make the healers queue just never pops. The solution can only come by a rebalance of the dungeon bosses making them in such a way that the fact of having a heal can make sense and that the lost dps doesnt increase the fight length by 5 minutes. It may make the endgame grind slightly more enjoyable and as a result increase a lot the retention of players. And in turn decrease the level of BS healers are facing in queues.

That said I thought people were playing this game for the story mostly. From what i understood that is what FC want people to come and spend money for. For endgame PVP or PVE, there are a lot of better alternatives in the market.


#75

You mistake one thing - there are no resources for this. It’s too much work to go through every boss and see how it works in relation to each fight on each level in each tier in all the dungeons without it effecting somewhere else in the game. Adding the option to the group finder is the only solution.

This is the last thing you should be saying to anyone and indeed it was. Shamefully you are called Real Secret Worlder?

But this ^^ LoL - is whats called burying your head in the sand. You are being that guy that allows something that is not needed to become something that is the most damaging and actually flies in the face of the actual visual descriptions set out in the roles and gear currently in game.
Now you really need to sit and think about each point you quoted and look at it again - without blinkers and without prejudice or bias. But you did prove my points perfectly. Thank you.

As you can see, this is the kind of mindset people are up against now in SWL. It’s clear to see in each response whether its direct or misquoted is either misunderstanding or just plain hypocritical and exclusive - which is not inclusive.


#76

Yes i completely agree. And that is the reason why i was saying the only way out is to rebalance dungeons bosses.

I agree too. But my crush was on the older daughter, not her siblings.


#77

Not being a dev, i don’t know if changing the queue is as simple as it looks like and less resource incentive than to spend time on metrics to recalibrate th hp and damage output. Anyhow, altogether it is not my fault if they use the money i gave them to develop a mystery new project rather than developping this one. The resource at FC level are plenty. They are making a choice to use them as they want. At the end of the day, creating a new queue will not save healing. It can be a bandaid but at the root is a balance issue, which if is not fixed will always leave “healers” as the 5th wheel of the car.

Really? I should lie? Pretend the endgame is the best on the market (better than TSW?!) and issues will magically go away and ppl come back to play the game?

Yes Real Secret Worlder not a Real Secret World Legender. Are you some kind of big Moth yourself? :thinking:

You mean by not playing dungeons anymore in SWL because they bore me? Or because the little i played i was mostly tanking with healers, so that could have give them the wrong impression they were needed and thus gearing a role not needed? Ok you are right, i ll make sure to go sustain next time i ll log and do a dungeon. :slight_smile:

Please lead by example :slight_smile: and you are welcome.

If what you mean by that is that the efficiency principle is driving mmo’s meta, well, yeah it is. If you mean that I am actually annoyed by healers, well, sorry to disapoint you but the only ppl i ever voted to kick out of a dungeon in SWL were dps. Generally i dont mind spending more time if the group manage to finish the dungeon. But if we wipe 10 times on a boss because we lack dps or because someone is not pulling their weight, then i ll ask them to kick me or vote retreat.
That said, there is nothing new with SWL lfg tool and kick process. The exact same things are happening in other games and people are getting kicked when using lfg tool based on arbitrary judgements (because level, because gear, because someone is a noob, etc). The quickest answer tend to be the same in all those game: dont use lfg and go “private” group.

So yes i find it silly that healing is not valuable in the game. But creating a new queue is not going to make it more valuable. Only balance change can do that. And, as you are saying, they decided to allow resources differently (possibly wisely, idk) so basically you are probably :nut_and_bolt: and the game is probably :coffin: on the long run.


#78

There is no request to re-create the whole que system. Just one addition. Sustain tanking. This will lock the option of healer from being picked into the sustain group - because as it stands the descriptions states directly from the activity finder that the “healing role” is required for the dungeon - which as we know, for sustain tank, is false.
This then creates a problem - when a healer is picked for the group but is faced with not being needed. If it’s a sole healer and a sole sustain tank - then the group is at a loss as a whole - this is damaging, especially when sustain tanking is being used in lower dungeons where it is NOT necessary - creating the impression to healers that it is them who is not needed when it is quite the opposite. it’s more than frustrating and leads to animosity between individuals and eventually filters into it being a problem with the classes themselves.

Is it the fault of funcom - yes, OFC it is, we all know that.
It is also the fault of the players who are actively making it happen also. Like i said, you use AF and you forgo the right to demand anything, you can only accommodate as you see fit, but it’s impossible if you can not due to gear or w/e other reason - this goes for all concerned on all sides in all parties.

Private grouping is a NON ISSUE here and is irrelevant. So is using LFG by responding to requests or actively seeking them yourself. This i am not discussing because as you know - it’s not an issue here.
The problem only arises from using the activity finder because of inaccurate role descriptions and then expectations.

When you look at what funcom have given us as regards updates, patches, fixes etc. The only content we had was SA and the few missions recently. As soon as SA was done the whole team and i mean all of them, were moved elsewhere - this is your “resources” - the only ones left are people who can add systems such as Agent network and the tweaks we see to those systems and small fixes. This is how it looks to me at least. So the suggestion of tweaking the Que process seems far easier to manage than a re-balancing of every boss, in every dungeon, to react with each players actions without it effecting how those actions are then reacting elsewhere in game.
I can give the recent “stationary bosses targeting random people for no reason and killing them” bug as an example of what happens when they try to re-balance 1 or 2 bosses in a dungeon that has knock on effects elsewhere because they adhere to the same rules. It’s almost like they share codes and work from what shared codes they have rather than having individual codes each to work with. If that makes sense.

I also have no idea how this all works or what is easier than the other, but for me - on my end. It looks the most simplistic of options and it does NOT exclude anyone but actually INCLUDES sustain tanking as a viable option in the Activity Finder.

I hope this makes it more clear to you.
It is, for me, where i see the problem most.
It is not present anywhere else in game and only presents itself between two roles when put together with the wrong expectation and neither can fulfil the others wish (from some it’s a hideous demand)
Continuing to ignore this aspect is wrong.
You must look at it as a whole picture that includes everyone and how each one interacts with each other on an inter-player level. We can’t do anything about asshats except report and pull them up for being douchbags to each other, but we can try and make it better by offering valid options.


#79

I agree Meta, this sounds like a very good idea. As a newbie I prefer the sound of having a separate option when searching group than “re-balancing” bosses that may make things much harder for under skilled, bottom end gear groups.

It will also let dps know the type of group they are going into and can be prepared to cleanse and heal themselves if they know there will be no healer.


#80

In principle, I quite like this idea as a way of reducing the instances where a healer joins a PUG team and gets told they aren’t needed. What worries me though is that it may end up doing this by simply reducing the opportunities available for those who queue as healers only. If, say, 50% of tanks move to the sustain tanking option, that’s 50% less dungeon pops for the healer.

However, the fact that it would pretty much eliminate the situations that put people off healing (i.e. being told they are no use) is a real advantage. Reducing the disharmony that often crops up around sustain tanking (and may well put people off playing) is a big step in addressing the overall situation.


#81

Exactly - i actually can’t see why anyone would disagree with this as an option - since it is inclusive of all the roles in SWL.
It has been pointed out many times “this is not TSW” - we know that, but the game itself still has parts like Activity finder that are out of touch with how it works at present.


#82

Sometimes, a sustain tank will often already have a person to que with them to fulfil the required role on the activity finder side, while actually just being a DPS - which already locks the solo qued tanks and solo qued healers from being picked. The opportunities as i see it, would be just the same as they are now - but the expectation of what you will be doing would be more clear and accurate of what you signed up for.

yes yes - Some have their own private groups - which i have said is NOT and issue at all. I feel like i have to keep stating that now in case i’m pulled up on that “this is also an option to just go private”
WE KNOW PEOPLE - WE KNOW!! lol :smiley:


#83

Depends on what proportion of people who currently queue as healers are doing it because it’s the only role they want to do, vs. knowing that it’s a faster pop. If 1/4 of tanks only want to plain-tank and 1/4 of healers only want to heal, they still pair up and the people who are willing to group with sustain tanks can go do that instead.

Personally I’m not really worried about optimal group composition, which is why I’m willing to tank either way and I never parse dps to find out who to kick. I’ll sign up to whatever makes group finder quickest.

I’m not sure it’s fair on dps to randomly give them tank+healer or just a sustain tank though. So maybe break it up to 5 roles with complete separation - sustain tank + sustain dps, dependent tank + healer + dependent dps


#84

Also very valid and completely inclusive of how diverse the actual roles are in comparison to what the activity finder roles actually state. Thank you.
Even with a low pop game with all the tiers we have, it’s still a valid topic/reason/suggestion - it’s at least a lot more current to what we have presently.
The only outcome if a person feels they don’t get many pops in a day/week - is to consider to diversify themselves and branch out into other roles that would create more pops from the AF.
As a DPS - i have found no issues whatsoever in selecting that red sword icon on AF and the actual expectation of what i needed to do vs what i actually did once in the dungeon. Hit the boss, kill the boss - don’t agro adds or boss. Take adds to tank if need be, don’t stand in the stupid etc etc - that’s pretty non changing as a DPS. The impair/purge/cleanse thing also is pretty self explanatory - you know what boss you are fighting and most often the tank has just said what they need help with if any at all.
The same can’t be said for healers since the tank role is and can be changeable and you have no idea who or what you will be doing and unfair if neither can accommodate the other through random mismatching.


#85

Absolutely! Something that says “sustain tanks, we’re doing this for you”, “dependent tanks, we’re doing this for you”, “healers/support, we’re doing this for you” rather than a ‘solution’ of “well if we nerf this…” can only be good.


#86

If this is too much work, they should simply nerf sustain tanking to a point where it needs a healer.

Now that I know the pain of healers, I am not doing sustain tanking unless explicitly asked.

It’s hard enough getting a queue pop for half of the Dungeon difficulties without alianating a portion of the already dying playerbase.


#87

Or maybe next time I go into a dungeon as healer, I should get in before anyone else and say “Don’t need sustain tank, you can go regular”

Wonder how long that would last :smiley:


#88

Well, lets face it - if truth be told, which up until recently, has been proven it hasn’t been. It would be more honest than what was being told to the healer - after all - the sustain tank is the one using a build in a place where it is not necessary in certain places, which has resulted in this position some have wilfully imposed.

But where do we draw the line? - both parties do need to practice their builds and ability rotations against the mechanics in the tiers and actually learn and progress.

but i do love this idea - because who says that a tank gets to call the shots huh? All 3 roles are needed to pop that que in the AF so nobody has exclusive rights as such. It’s just that those who have done so have been the most vocal about it and the most dominating. Well, no longer will that be the case.
And no longer will it be spouted out so maliciously the untruths that a healer is not needed.

@YamiRaziel The struggles of a healer are well known. As you can see not all tanks are like this, Some run both styles of tanking and some regular, they do not impose their will on to others just because they can “do it all” so easily or as they say “efficiently”.
Grateful for small mercies one may say.
I’m grateful for their truths. I’m grateful for their courage. I’m grateful for their solidarity and honesty.

We need more people like this.
While i may not recall all their names or even be able to mention them. Even in praise.
We thank you.
You are appreciated.


#89

Every dungeon I pug I enjoy having a healer. I hate when the healer asks if he has to heal


#90

I read (almost) all of this and I feel for all the dedicated healers out there. I have been one of them but I just switched to play all 3 roles with my dps gear (with a few talismans swtch) long time ago when AA came out.

I just have one question, what about when the tank plays sustain but does not ask you to stop healing ? Is it acceptable or do you feel offended becouse you feel not usefull at all ? (which is not true btw)
I never ask the healer to go dps in PUGs but I still play sustain becouse … it is the only viable build for me. I have all dps gear/glyphs so many on lvl healers may struggle to keep me alive if I did not sustain and I do not think a PUG is the right place to test out how much I can push before the healer will fail.
How would you like to see managed this kind of scenario ?

PS
I have never seen a healer kicked from a group before, but if I will ever seen one be sure I will ask to be kicked too and invite him to reform a group immediately :slight_smile:


#91

Infinite points to you.

As for your question, i think it depend on the healer. Personally i wouldn’t be offended, but somehow i feel like it would be okay to communicate it, the way you communicate it is the important part. I am sure some would be offended from either case.

Now i usually tank with Defensive glyphs on my main, so that is a bit different from you, but i tent to allocate down as far as the healer can deal with. Did tank an E2 with my E5 dps (full time dps) today, to help a mate get an E2 in. Tanked most of it at around 50/50 AA and 1-2 mitigation abilities. You can non sustain, without being defense glyphed, but you gotta smart mitigate a bit, and not waste mitigation when you ain’t getting hit anyways.