Yes, you missed the part where you made sure your mathematical model was applicable to the game you’re trying to model. The parameters you used are so far apart from how the game works that you might as well be modeling Tetris.
Have to amend my above post, my weapon seems to contain a bug, normal rifles won’t do it.
I know everyone is hoping for the next broken AF KSR, but I highly doubt this is it.
I have sent you a DM, thank you.
This was taken care of in my sheet. My sheet also not only sum the total overall damage but also damage sum every second/action possible. The damage was also split into primary target and secondary target (AoE).
While yes these parameters are not possible ingame per se. They were chosen to reduce possible variables to get an easier look for the damage potential. And since both, Hellfire Launcher and the Incendiary Grenade are equally affected by the grenade chance in the end, it should not alter the outcome.
The 100% crit chance was chosen for 100% energy recover per action to picture the outcome easier.
The Full Auto ability was chosen to get a good amount of sample lenght (30 seconds in this example) in combination with 1 energy per crit and 1 energy per second recovery.
Afterall, i had parameters in mind to provide both, the Hellfire Launcher and Incendiary Grenade with the absolut best scenario data to be able to focus on the damage POTENTIAL.
Using normal ingame values here, would have made this only more complicated and the results would be more luck based than this variant.
You can very much load and fire a grenade with the Hellfire Launcher at the same time ingame. It happens every time.
The steps are as follows:
- Shoot grenade trigger ability → grenade created
- Shoot grenade trigger ability → Hellfire Launcher consumes grenade and does damage, another grenade was created by the grenade trigger ability during this process
This alone is should make people rise their eyebrows.
Sure. When you use your grenade trigger ability, you do damage with it ofc. When you cast a grenade ability (Incendiary Grenade), you can’t use your grenade trigger ability (Full Auto for example) at the same time, there for you only do damage at this action with one of the 2.
With the Hellfire Launcher however, you will damage with your grenade trigger ability constantly and do the Hellfire grenade damage at the same time.
So my sheet is not only about a comparison of the Hellfire Grenade vs the Incendiary Grenade, it is also a comparison about the battle steps using the Hellfire Launcher vs using the Incendiary Grenade, which includes moments, where the cast of said Incendiary Grenade itself doesn’t allow doing damage with your grenade trigger ability for this moment. So the damage of the Incendiary Grenade not only has to compete with the hellfire grenade but also with the additional grenade trigger ability damage.
I hope this was comprehensible, if not let me know.
I’m sorry but this is wrong. I tested this ingame by taking out the Signet of the Commando. The damage of the Hellfire grenade was reduced. Putting it back in increased it. I didn’t tested Nemain though, but i assumed this has to work too, since Hellfire is AoE. I will test this later and report back on this particular.
Sometimes you need to and can isolate certain variables when both test candidates are affected by them the same. This is the case here. The overall outcome doesn’t change.
Well, it is less about the next broken AF rifle more about the Hellfire Launcher is not worse than a normal rifle.
Your assumption that you can load 60 grenades per minute, but a regular rifle is limited to firing 30 of them because IG can’t load a grenade, is definitely changing the overall outcome, compared to the reality that both weapons will load ~7-8 per minute on any real character. Hellfire might load more grenades because it sends more power abilities, but you need to compare the actual numbers, not just assume it’s twice as good. Working from free energy I’d estimate 25 Full Auto + 5 IG in 30 seconds with a generic AR, 30 Full Auto + 6 grenades with Hellfire. Without free energy they both cast the same number of power moves and generate identical numbers of grenades.
Since your actual argument boils down to “Hellfire does half as much damage per grenade, can launch twice as many grenades” this is a pretty big issue.
The grenade frequency DOES affect Hellfire and regular IGs differently though, proof is as you’ve said yourself, one uses a global cooldown, the other doesn’t, you’re taking an unproven assumption and basing calculations off of it. Have you also counted the Military Strap in your sheet by the way?
Except this is nowhere near an “absolute best” scenario. This scenario doesn’t exist. The idea of “potential” that you mention is flawed - a potential can be something that represents the maximum possible performance of something in a given niche circumstance.
If you’re gonna argue that theoretically, there’s a probability that in your 30s fight, all your hits are critical hits, then i’d counter that i’d rather go Pneumatic Maul hammer DPS and destroy all your parses & hopes at the same time with that same 100% crit chance. Yes please !
Show me a video of that happening without using Heavy Payload and without waiting for like a minute in combat doing nothing and gaining Grenade Points passively. Otherwise i say this is pure BS. I mean… this actually can’t even happen in your 100% crit chance model. Show me this happening multiple times in the same combat, consistently.
So basically, you had to write 2 paragraphs to basically say “i’ve accounted for global cooldowns for grenades”. I mean, ok, fair enough.
Ok, you’re right, retested it myself, and the neck signet does indeed work. I’ve actually updated my simulator with this information, which doesn’t change the end result much though.
Also, i still didn’t get to see your sheet ? Are you addressing my sheet from your own side ?
Btw this is how a Burst Fire Hellfire vs Burst Fire High-Yield Launcher sims differ:
As you can notice from the previous screenshots, i’ve also adapted the build for the Hellfire and removed Slow Burn, which i’ve replaced with Combat Readiness, here’s the Jungle Style version:
This is a sim with no specific extraordinary rifle used, just a generic rifle:
These results support all the evidence that the community already gathered about the Hellfire.
PS: i’ve made a tooltip comparison for the signet of Nemain, the same way i did it for the Signet of Commando, it doesn’t buff Hellfire procs (on a single target scenario, IG procs aren’t buffed either though).
PS2: the link to my sheet i gave you previously is a slightly outdated version of the sim (pre-rebalance), the fully up to date one is here:
The Hellfire doesn’t get more power abilities. Incendiary Grenades with the Military Strap are energy neutral, leaving the same amount of energy for the power abilities. My sim says you have exactly the same number of power abilities and grenades no matter the circumstance.
Here’s my own evidence.
1 min of shooting, not a single grenade loaded back to back. And it’s gonna be always the same regardless of the duration, since there’s basically no RNG in grenade generation.
I did not and i just updated my sheet accordingly, thank you. It is now calculated for a 60 second fight. However, it does not change the end results i have and my argument, which i will state finally if my screenshots were posted. I will send newer screenshots of the updated sheet too. Just waiting for the kind one that offered to post them for me.
This thread is not about best dps in the game. It is about the theory that the Hellfire Launcher is worse than a normal rifle.
I can’t show a video, since i don’t have a setup for it nor do i have any account for hosting said video.
However i just tested it again, as you in agartha and i just had this again.
It happens way often in real combat though. I can hear it, i see it. It was the first thing i regonized since i got my Hellfire Launcher back than.
You said grenade generation is not RNG, which is not true. I heard of said grenade points creation, but there still RNG whenever will load a grenade though.
To quote the patchnotes:
- Loading Grenades now uses a Procs-Per-Minute system that scales with the amount of Assault Rifle Energy spent casting Power abilities. To put it another way: Spending more Energy on Grenade-generating Power abilities will generate more Grenades.
- The number of Grenades generated per minute on average with base energy generation is 6.
The more energy you invest the more grenades you will get (probably part of that grenade points you gather). And it says the AVERAGE grenades are around 6 with BASE energy generation. That doesn’t mean it is fixed.
So what can i say to your video, unlucky, sadly. But it does happen, i have seen that so many times and it is not rare at all.
You wanted me to explain, i did. Otherwise i can just go over to just “YES” and “NO” to discuss with you, if you prefer that.
As stated in my opening post i can’t post any links. And i stated in a reply i made that i have sent someone the screenshots, so they can be posted here.
To be honest, while i appreciate your sheet, i just can’t get my head around it.
You also did took a total different appoach visiually on this, i just can’t really work with it for what i want to show.
I think it will be the best if we just wait for the screenshots to be posted. I will then post my final thoughts on these, like why i came to the conclusion that the Hellfire Launcher isn’t worse than a normal rifle.
€: so i just got lvl up in this forum and can post links now, here are the first screenshots, will post th updated ones shortly.
Incendiary Grenade damage
Incendiary Grenade damage (cooked)
Yes, and the Hellfire IS worse than a regular rifle. I’ve brought a lot of evidence to this.
So you’re saying you’re unable to create a Youtube account? And you’re unable to download and use any video recording tool, such as OBS or whatever the hell you like ? BS.
Ok dude. I just let you meditate on this:
Me & Theck (mostly Theck) spent a lot of time during the closed & open betas, directly in touch with Nirvelle, who was basically in charge of developping this new grenade mechanic. You’re not gonna quote patch notes and try to teach us anything about that, it’s not gonna go well for you.
To quote the “RNG” part: while there IS a random part in the algorithm itself, it only serves to actually make the grenade generation as reliably spread out and consistent as possible, and the end result is as steady as it gets.
I’m not gonna make a 30 minute video doing the same stuff, i have better things to do. I’m just rather gonna say you’re full of lies.
Now, since you’ve managed to post screenshots, can you present and explain the results? And can you provide ACT parses that correlate these results (while giving log files to use at the same time so we can check them ourselves, just in case you decided to doctor them).
I can already guess from your screenshots that you did not account for incendiary grenades exploding the previous ones and dealing the remaining dot damage, despite people calling you out about this in this thread.
Can you upload your whole sheet, instead of just screenshots?
Ok so basically what i see from your Hellfire screenshot is that in the first 12 seconds, you threw 10 grenades. Yeah buddy, sure.
And here are the upated ones:
Hellfire damage updated
Incendiary Grenade damage updated
Incendiary Grenade damage (cooked) upated
So now to my final thoughts:
The Hellfire Launcher grenades are stronger at the beginning of a fight and Incendiary Grenades are closing in to the damage of the Hellfire due to energy managment after some time. The cooked grenades is much more efficent than the non cooked one, not only in damage but also in energy management, up to the point that can eventually create energy back instead of consuming.
There is a discussion in this if the 100% grenade chance paramater is good enough for the comparison. Well then lets have a look at a 10 second grenade routine.
The start is the very first grenade trigger ability, the end is reached when 10 seconds of DoT damage was done.
With the base damage data that was used in the sheet that would be:
Hellfire damage with the trigger ability included reached:
Incendiary Grenade cooked reached at the same
I just don’t see how the Hellfire grenade is worse than the Incendiary grenade.
Of course, if you just compare raw damage than ofc the Incendiary grenade is stronger, after the every DoT tick was done:
using sheet data as basis-
Incendiary Grenade = 10941 damage (grenade hit damage + dot for 10 seconds)
Just the Hellfire Launcher proc = 3466 damage
But there is stuff happening in this 10 seconds of DoT damage.
- you still fire your grenade trigger ability during the time
- you still proc grenades during this time
- hell fire damage can occur more than just once in 10 seconds
- the Incendiary DoT will just be renewed not stacked only the hit damage can occur again
And if you sum this all up, the Hellfire Launcher can for sure hold his own.
It is more bursty, consumes more energy. So it depends how long the fight really takes. If everyone bursts the the fight will ofc be shorter and the hellfire will not fall behind.
If you got a long fight sure the hellfire will go down after a while, but it still will take some time though.
So no, in my opinion the Hellfire Launcher it totally ok.
Thank you all for your time already in thread and in the future.
This is extremely wrong. We called it out several times, you don’t seem to care. When you reapply an incendiary greande while the old dot still exists, the remaining duration is summed up and explodes. You always get the full damage from an incendiary grenade, except when you actually kill your target with a dot still present on it.
This is totally wrong. It consumes exactly the same amount of energy that an Incendiary Grenade build does. Incendiary Grenades are energy neutral. I’ve pointed it out.
This is full of BS ! The only time you can win with a Hellfire is on a 2s fight, if you only get to fire it once. This is ridiculous and doesn’t mean anything. As soon as you fire 2 incendiary grenades on a given fight, you already get over the Hellfire.
Oh ok this is about opinions now?
You’re dangerous. This is how the antivax and such movements got to live. I wish we could flag threads and people from spreading misinformation.
You provide no evidence and no data to your claims outside doctored and ridiculous screenshots from a random spreadsheet that you’ve made in 5 min, you have no history as a person in the community to back up any of your claims, otherwise, do you really believe anyone would trust you? just because you say “i get grenades back to back every second”? we should trust random people on the internet now?
And you’re disrespecting many people’s work and theorycrafting / maths done over years.
If you like to play with a Hellfire, nobody told you to do otherwise, but you have to stop this. If i want to smoke, i’m not gonna pretend i’d have some statistics and studies in order to try to prove that smoking is actually good for my health.
Now, please get out of here.
Ok first, i did not know that, or can’t remember that, second. I can’t really tell people calling me out for that? Third, there is no information about this in the ability description ingame as far as i know.
I just check the battle log and yes it seems to happen.
This ofcourse changes stuff sadly.
Next and last point, dear Szalord
From the very start you seem to be very passive aggresive to me. And i just read in one of your comments that you stated i would lie. Enough is enough. I didn’t lie, i just stated my observations. Did i not know a vital mechanic of the incendiary grenade? Yes, that can happen. But this does not justify your tone against me.
Its totally fine that you put in so much work in finding out stuff, and it surly helps a lot of people, probably helped me too, if you were involed in the gear and theory spreadsheet for example.
However making fun of someone, accusing someone of something and behave like you know EVERYTHING and you should be not questioned is not right.
I just made my own thoughts based on the information i have and i just made this thread to check if i’m right on this. You can see that in the thread title, it is a question, you know?
And yes, i still insist on the fact that a grenade can proc at the same time as you fired your current one with Hellfire Launcher.
But whatever, due to the fact, i was missing an impoartant part about the incendiary grenade mechanic, it is now also clear for me that the Hellfire Launcher it not so good. What can i say i use it for very long time now, the last time i used the Incendiary grenade was years ago, since i played with breaks.
And i will still use it as primary, cause i like it.
I will stop the conversation now, since it was really unpleasent at the end. Still had fun to make the calc based on my informations and observation, though.
Don’t try to pull the victim card on this one. I call out people when they deserve it, whether they like it or not.
This is the main part and the reason why i call you a liar. This never happens under the circumstances i’ve asked you to make a footage with. Never. I provided my own video to support that. Everybody knows that throwing 10 grenades in the first 12 seconds of a fight is BS. Yet you say “it happens to me”. THIS IS UTTER BS, and you know it. And yet you decided you’re too lazy to actually upload some footage. This is not gonna work.
You did not frame it as a question. You framed it as a bunch of facts straight out of a Tetris game that have nothing to do with SWL, and called it a day. Don’t pretend the whole thread was a question just because you’ve put a question mark somewhere.
This is why before falsely denying the work of many people, you first get to understand how the mechanics work. If you spent 2 MINUTES looking at your damage numbers and logs when throwing incendiary grenades, you would have known that. But you didn’t. You had a premade biased agenda that you were very commited to spread out.
Next time, if you want to REALLY ask a question, ask the freaking question. People would be more than happy to provide napkin maths and evidence. In a polite tone. Don’t try to make up some random sheets with insane numbers, you’re losing your time and everyone else’s time.
It is not about a victim card, you were pretty rude, just because i had a different thought process about something. Just look how aggressive your are right now. I was at no point impolite against anyone or anything.
If the case of just questioning someting, something that you made maybe, makes you so angry you should maybe look into yourself a bit.
Also you did not own me at all, so stop trying to say i have to upload a video of someting. If you don’t believe it fine, leave it at it is, but stop calling me liar. I don’t even have a motive to lie about such thing…
And to the question. It was a question, sure i wrote a bit more than a usual question would be, but ofcourse it was in a questioning tone, cause i was not sure about my oberservations.
And lastly i didn’t made the sheet for this thread. I made it for myself and after i was asked ingame about my weapon choice, i was asked to post this in the forum for it may have been interesting.
It is ok to disagree or don’t believe certain things but you don’t have to be rude about it.
So now for sure i will go, in peace…
The truth is not an attack and the reality is not rude.
Look, admit this was a low effort low quality thread. Maybe you didn’t want to misinform, but it turned out that way. And you had, as a result, a big chance of getting flamed for it. And guess what ? It happened ! What now? It’s not a big deal, and hopefully you’ve learnt something out of it.
Dude, I have a Ph.D. in experimental physics. I’m very familiar with how to design an experiment to isolate individual variables. It’s a skill I teach my students in their introductory lab classes.
What you’ve done in your assumptions is not at all the same thing. You’ve made one major incorrect underlying assumption (the way grenades are triggered) that invalidates the entire experiment.
To put it in mathematical terms, you’ve essentially decided to arbitrarily declare that pi=4, and therefore assert that a circle inscribed inside a square would have the same perimeter as the square. Despite the fact that one could easily look at the diagram and determine that statement is false.
The grenade mechanics limit you to a fixed number of grenades per minute, somewhere in the vicinity of 7-9 under normal conditions. Your hypothesis that you could get double the grenades with hellfire is just flat-out false. There is a thread in this forum containing a large, detailed, and *extremely *well-documented set of tests confirming these mechanics.
In other words, there is actual well-designed experimental evidence demonstrating that your model is wrong. The first step in any scientific endeavor is reviewing the available literature on the topic, which you clearly haven’t done. So please don’t try to lecture me on how science works.
If you don’t want to trust a simulator, this is one case where it’s possible to do some simple napkin math to compare the Hellfire to any other rifle. Let’s choose to compare it to a regular old Assault Rifle (or a KSR if you prefer, which also has no steady-state DPS benefit). If the Hellfire loses here, it loses to any other rifle that has a special ability.
You get the same number of grenades with both rifles. So all we need to compare are the two effects. With a regular assault rifle, you get the damage of an Incendiary Grenade.
With the Hellfire, you get the damage of the Hellfire proc, but you also don’t have to spend a GCD casting the grenade, so there’s an extra benefit. However, IG is energy neutral, so we can’t assume that we gain any energy from this - the number of power abilities will remain the same. So the real benefit is that we’re able to cast more Placed Shots.
Thus, the real comparison is (damage of IG) vs. (damage of Hellfire proc + damage of Placed Shot).
As you noted, crit and other effects are all basically irrelevant here, so let’s abstract them away and just compare base damage. Here are the CP coefficients for each ability (in other words, this is normalized damage; someone with 1 combat power would do this much damage, someone with 1000 combat power would do 1000x this damage). Assumptions are full museum and appropriate agents (though even ignoring both of those effects gives the same result):
Incendiary Grenade (cooked, w/o Slow Burn): 10.05
Incendiary Grenade (cooked, w/ Slow Burn): 12.33
Placed Shot: 3.33
Hellfire Assault Launcher: 4.29
So even adding in a placed shot, Hellfire will do 7.62 x CP damage per grenade, whereas IG will do at least 10.05 x CP damage, and more if you’re taking the appropriate passive.
Hence, Hellfire would be worse than a normal, no-frills assault rifle. All of the extraordinary weapons give an additional damage increase over a no-frills rifle, so they would also beat Hellfire in main-hand damage output.
Nipping this one in the bud before it spirals out further.