Interesting vid that explains my stances in PVP

erjoh · 2023-05-08T21:58:33.213Z

While this is primarily a TT RPG vid, it definitely has a place here because there is a very strong connection of what I have been spending time trying to get into the PVP game. And why I tried to push what FC wanted out of PVP (establish Expectations)

Taemien · 2023-05-08T22:46:18.228Z

I could agree that in a perfect world, that PVP should have every party take into account how such actions affect other players. But this only works in curated environments. Even then it only works when everyone is playing on the same wavelength.

In general open settings. Its a pipedream. It might as well be a mad max scenario where the strong literally consume the weak, torturing, killing, and even in some cases doing other nasty things. Whether in that order or not.

As for what FC can do. Not much… but also quite a bit. So far they have done an excellent job at giving us the methods and means to create these environments for us to compete in. Through server settings alone we have a great deal of control.

Obviously for open servers with little to no moderation, that all goes out the window. But there isn’t much to be done for those minority of servers. It would take a ton of effort for very little gain. I think what FC should consider doing is being more open about that fact. Ever since PVP servers became a thing nearly 3 decades ago, the ones running the servers effectively covered them in warning labels.

Either you were warned that you were going into a bad situation on a pop up, or in the game manual itself, saying you probably want to stick to PVE first until you get your bearings. The way PVE, PVE-C, and PVP are presented now is as three equal but different playstyles.

They are not. They are immeasurable difficulty settings that increase your chances at failure significantly. You cannot reliably (without help or determination) learn this game on a PVP server as your first playthrough. The average player may even struggle on a PVE-C server unless the players there take pity. I mean most players struggle in the PVE environment. Adding players as foes to the mix is a guaranteed method of failure.

biggcane55 · 2023-05-08T23:08:11.024Z

Very interesting. Good for gamers in general to learn. Also, the expectations being set. FC has done a poor job of setting pvp expectations as far as mecjanocs, settings, etc. Enjoyed the watch.

erjoh · 2023-05-09T00:21:04.945Z

Taemien:

You cannot reliably (without help or determination) learn this game on a PVP server as your first playthrough.

I sort of did…after about 2 hours of total playtime on solo to figure some of it out. But I recognize im different in that the experience while playing is the most important aspect of the game.

Kapoteeni · 2023-05-09T09:41:12.678Z

Establishing expectations is definitely important for enjoyment. I’ve played tabletop RPGs with the same people for almost 20 years now, so we know our preferences pretty well at this point - yet whenever we start a new campaign, we still go over this discussion. It helps set the tone for each campaign.

As for free-for-all PvP video games, establishing expectations is unfortunately simple. You can expect there to be schoolyard bullies on a power trip whose only purpose is to ruin the gaming experience for everyone else. They’re not the only players on a PvP server, and probably not even the majority - but they will be there, and no amount of wishful thinking will make them go away.

You can make mutual agreements with players you come to know on a server, but there’s no way to enforce your agreements on everyone else. This is different with TT RPG groups where everyone sits around the same table, so it’s easy to discuss how everyone wants to play the game, and in worst case scenarios, boot the disruptive person out.

I don’t see Funcom being in a position to establish expectations (beyond what I described above) when all they do is provide us an unsupervised sandbox. If we want a sandbox where everyone plays by the same rules, we need our own private sandbox with someone to watch over the playing children.

Taemien · 2023-05-09T11:18:21.964Z

In the past, in the realm of PVP there was a time when keeping bullies in check through mutual agreements was not only possible but standard. When you played in Everquest or Ultima Online in the late 90s, you were expected to conduct yourself roughly in a decent manner. Deviating from this got you labeled as a PK and that had consequences.

Over the years those consequences have diminished or been outright mitigated. In the context of Everquest, I remember trying out the Rallos Zek server where the ruleset was you could PVP anyone within a certain level range of you, and if you defeated someone, you could loot the money they had on them, and an item in their general inventory (somewhat limited). I figured it would be a general apocalypse of people killing each other left and right. It could not have been further from that.

People grouped like they did on the blue servers and when PVP happened, it was more like a friendly duel than anything else. I remember playing a Necromancer and had a Paladin come up and saying he was going to PVP me. He could have outright attacked without a word, the nature of the server allowed for that. But he didn’t want to attack me while I was in the middle of a NPC fight or afk. So we fought and after a few minutes he conceded. I let up and he congratulated me and then said if I ever wanted to group up, to send him a message. A very different experience than how I saw PVP back in a game like Diablo where people would just outright gank you or even just cheat.

But I realized something. Why would someone want enemies on a server in a game where you need friends to do even some of the most basic things? Ganking a cleric means he ain’t gonna rez you if you need it in a pinch or even group with you meaning some other group is getting that role filled while you might still be looking.

There was another server however, the Sullon Zek server which had different mechanics for PVP. Instead of it being within a certain level and being everyone (free for all). It was any level past level 6 and anyone of a different alignment. Alignments were determined by deity choice and it was Good, Neutral, and Evil. You couldn’t group with opposing alignments nor could you guild with them.

When you went to a popular grouping spot… the area was literally littered with corpses. Why? Because there was no incentive to be decent to players of different alignments. You couldn’t help each other, you couldn’t trade, you couldn’t even buff or heal one another. But not being able to group with each other meant they were in the way and you got nothing. In fact the mindset was that if they were camping a drop meant that drop couldn’t be used by your team. You almost had a duty to prevent that.

They even took it further and rated which alignment controlled which zone on their website, so PVP that happened was tallied and if one side dominated, they would ‘control’ that zone. It didn’t actually give any benefit, but you could see on a map where your side was in ‘control’. That was incentive enough to say the least.

Anyone who played World of Warcraft may notice a somewhat similarity where the factions could not group, guild, trade, or even talk to one another. I remember when Blizzard announced they would be removing the ability for factions to talk to each other to prevent verbal arguements. I was thinking at the time… you’re taking Sullon Zek and ramping it up.

You see on Sullon Zek, you could still talk to each other. And there was times where you could make agreements or ‘cease fires’ in some cases. And because it was a 3 way fight if one side was dominating too much, the other two could broker a temporary truce and be somewhat friendly.

Not in WoW. Red equals Dead. And unfortunately that sort of set the standard going forward as the game entered in to the mainstream in the mid 2000s. Of course the lack of incentives to cooperate were the biggest issue. In the days of cross realm grouping in MMORPGs and really no reason to form relationships has made cooperation irrelevant.

But what about Conan Exiles? These are small servers running on old spare PCs or virtual machines, not clustered mainframe servers. Surely some common ground can be found right?

Well yes and no. As others and myself have indicated earlier in the thread, private servers are usually pretty sane when it comes to PVP. Drama happens as it always done in competition. But its nowhere near the cut throat maliciousness you see on FC provided servers. But why does that nastiness rule the day there?

Its actually an interesting question because in the early days of PVP (25-30 years ago) it was unmoderated. I mean MMORPG rules on PVP griefing have gotten stricter over time, not more lenient. For example, when you played Everquest and looked up their community standards, they had what was called the Play Nice Policy. It basically had some specifics that were normal, don’t be discriminatory and keep your language in check and whatnot. But it also had things where you don’t do things to players that would interrupt their play. But their caveats to PVP were interesting.

“We will not moderate situations that have a PVP solution on PVP servers.”

So if someone is doing something you don’t like, or blocking your progress on a PVP server, you either PVP over it, or deal with it. In general it let players police themselves. Which they did, and for a long time did so effectively.

Why doesn’t that work on a Conan Server? Specifically the public ones?

This is easy, there is no resource in Conan Exiles of meaningful consequence. Zero. Stone, fiber, and wood is everywhere. Iron is nearly as common as is hide and tar and even brimstone is quite common enough. Then stuff like Eladarium, Star Metal, and Black Ice is a little more meaningful, but not quite to the level that is needed.

Quite frankly, the ability to get up to speed quickly is one of the strengths to this game in PVP, but is also a major weakness. One can roll up on a server with a few friends, and get established in the first day or two, and become a major threat to many on the server in a week. They can even do this under the radar in many cases and hit everyone in a major way. When the first sign of trouble happens, they can hide out and then try another server until things cool down and repeat the process.

The same mechanics and methods that give Newbies a shot on a PVP server also damns them to perpetual harassment from those who just want to see the world burn.

Time is the greatest resource in any game. In Conan Exiles, time is one of the most mitigated issues and therein lies the problem for PVP. In the games mentioned earlier, Everquest and Ultima Online, PVP was kept in check because time spent was a major resource you had to manage. To get to level 60 in Everquest in 2000 meant spending hundreds of hours.

Thus to make the experience more efficient, you had to group, to group you needed to be on your best behavior. Acting like a total jerk would have negative consequences that could last weeks or months on your ability to progress.

Getting your base wiped out by an angry mob in Conan is of no consequence. Even if body vaulting wasn’t a thing, it takes little to no time to reestablish. Especially when harvest rates are greater than 1.0x.

But the newbies won’t have a chance at making it anywhere at low rates. Right? Well what chance do they have when griefers cannot be reigned in? Its been proven over 6 years that public server populations lack the ability to police themselves. In six years, the PVP servers have all failed in this regard. Either the ability to police these servers is lacking like I’m saying, or there is universal apathy, or more likely a little bit of both. In either case, the newbies are screwed either way.

But lowering the rates isn’t enough. Even at 1.0x rate it doesn’t take a crew very long to get into threatening an entire server. The availability of all resources, including the top end stuff even before the caravans is just way too high.

But unfortunately changing this at this stage of the game is an utter fantasy. I don’t even believe people would widely accept that sort of game. The idea of going six years in a game where you can go from zero to hero in a few hours suddenly being transformed into sitting in muck and crap for a few hundred hours before getting a foothold that could be taken down by enough ticked off barbarians isn’t something many want to try. But it would foster safety in numbers and it would heavily mitigate all but the most coordinated of griefers.

One thing I’ve noticed about griefers is when they organize… they can do some nasty stuff, but they don’t stay that way for long. Nasty people tend to do nasty things to each other nearly as much as they do to good people if not more. But when good people organize, they tend to stay that way a tad bit longer.

But unfortunately this is where the game is, and I don’t see it changing. Your best bet is to get a curated experience on a server ran by your fellow players. The tricky part is finding a server culture that meshes well. One of the advantages you get with public servers is its a crappy experience, but you know that going in. You just have to determine if the nastiness is acceptable or not.

Dzonatas · 2023-05-09T12:31:01.932Z

Kapoteeni:

You can expect there to be schoolyard bullies on a power trip whose only purpose is to ruin the gaming experience for everyone else.

No bully, no report.

I watched as some players ask for “pvp ok?” from other nearby players. No surprises. Doesn’t happen in CE. Should it? The server’s description tags pvp.

biggcane55 · 2023-05-09T13:34:32.761Z

By expectations on a video game, i mean the goal of the “game”. FC left this so open, the goal became wipe and push off server by any means. If the goal, or expectation, was to control areas and not whole server, then i believe bullying would be harder on the servers. Teleporting, offlning are 2 of the major things that could be tweaked to move the expectation of that closer to area control than server control. Also, maybe increase purge difficulty based in how much you destroy/loot. That is how I would set expectations as the “dungeon master” as a game company for officials.

Dzonatas · 2023-05-09T13:56:58.804Z

biggcane55:

If the goal, or expectation, was to control areas and not whole server, then i believe bullying would be harder on the servers.

I find the game pushes dominance, but some players call that leadership.

Kikigirl · 2023-05-09T14:31:57.199Z

This is tough. I think @Taemien explained well that the free for all nature of Official Servers especially would be hard to set expectations.

If you remove (or almost) the elements of hacking, exploits and gameplay balances it still wouldn’t even itself out in respect of the message of the video.

I enjoy that free for all and appreciate the personalities of each player. From the generous casual to the torturous temporarily embarrassed ruler. For a time there can be a modicum of society on a server; created economies, ceasefires, relenting, understanding, teaching, et al. The politics of PvP servers are something I enjoy when it comes about.

Fortunately and unfortunately private server owners have the ability to create those ‘expectations’.

Funcom would have to consider a different mode altogether, as is with suggestions in the past for battle royale. Which they seemed to attempt with Siptah - or at least that’s the feeling I got when it was launched and of course far from it.

erjoh · 2023-05-09T14:52:49.379Z

This conversation is really great and I hope FC is paying attention here.

Few points I wanted to bring up…

Kikigirl:

I think @Taemien explained well that the free for all nature of Official Servers especially would be hard to set expectations.

I would agree except the data isn’t supporting this. We have FC reeling in the free for all in Officials and it’s actually gotten worse, not better as far as toxic players. Its almost like a rebellion against administration of the servers with even larger and more intrusive building of those that are not enforced on and more aggression towards the bases at noob river. What should have been an equalizer and propagation of players with ToS rules, we got the exact opposite as the rules were weaponized by the toxic players almost immediately and more people left.

Is the video an example of ‘gamer communism’ where while it works in small groups, fails in larger ones because of the jerk factor? I ask this because I used to do LARP RPG back some 20 years ago and we easily had 100 players on some nights (average about 40-60) and it all still worked out with great player player interactions and still maintaining an overarching storyline with player driven side stories and conflicts galore.

Or is this one where active admin/GM is important and without it, it dies very very quickly?

Ethel · 2023-05-09T15:27:18.248Z

interesting.
one of the things i enjoy the most in CE is the freedom we have and i only respect the official server rules.
i often think “this is what would happen in a barbarian society”.
There is no goal, we decided the goal, we decide the win or lose conditions.
For example, if you attack my base and try to wipe me, but at the end of the day my base is still standing, you have lost and i have won. it is as simple as that.

i see people who do not agree with people having their freedom to decide that, but as wallace would say, what we would do without freedom?.
Because this also means that is 100 % possible to have a healthy server if the players decide to co-op and live “in a birthday party” as we say in our country.

The players have the power to unite and destroy any threat that comes, and if the threat ends up destroying them, then the defenders need to learn how to fight and try again.
Recently we got defeated in our own game because we did not adapted to the new sorc mechanics.
We have won countless wars, but we suffered our first defeat in years.
in that defeat we learned a lot in what we can do differently so it doesn’t happen again.

to me, this competition perfectly illustrate how evolution works, if you do not adapt to the conditions, you will die. is just perfect.

This is why CE is the best game ever created.

i do not think think that pvp needs “a goal” like an arbitrary objective that needs to be fullfilled, i mean, sure, it can be fun to compete for something specific like in siptah having all star metal in one place, or the surge when it was actually the only way to get t4 thralls, that was amazing.
but to me, freedom is everything.

biggcane55 · 2023-05-09T15:29:13.750Z

Let us take american football. There 52 active per team rosters where the goal is to physiaclly dominate another team. But there is a whistle between plays, player limit (11) at once per team to execute a play, and a clear goal, endzones and fieldgoals. This is where FC failed as far as goals. We have a whistle (raid window), but it does not need both teams to be blown for start, a player limit (10) per team, but they all dont need to be there to maximize effeciency of a “play”, and no endzones or fgs, just make the other team dissapear permanently.

erjoh · 2023-05-09T18:21:53.810Z

I’m really liking this guy.

HomelessDave · 2023-05-10T00:21:45.468Z

man that was boring. rp’ers make me laugh, walking lootbags

erjoh · 2023-05-10T01:29:09.115Z

Both extremes are damaging to the game and make it extremely mundane.

Try looking at their entire message.

system · 2023-05-17T01:29:59.138Z

This topic was automatically closed 7 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.