New update is good but also lacking (rant about new armor system)

CodeMage · 2022-12-08T04:33:11.007Z

MarcosC:

@CodeMage , my life revolves about investments. It’s not as if Funcom had much room to maneuver.

You know, I might be willing to accept that if you could actually provide even a shred of evidence

Like @Ciero9 already pointed out, Funcom was on the brink of bankruptcy before Conan Exiles. I already knew that, just as I knew that Conan Exiles pretty much pulled them out of that situation. That story has already been told.

The story about how DLCs left them on the brink of another bankruptcy? That’s the story I haven’t heard yet. Maybe that’s because it’s not so much of a story as an assumption by some people here

Yes, they said in their stream that the DLCs weren’t bringing enough revenue. I know that, and I’m not disputing that. For some reason, every time I criticize the current monetization strategies, people like you assume I’m disputing that and want free updates forever and whatnot.

I’m not going to go yet again into all the details of what I dislike about the current monetization strategies. Suffice it to say that I would have been willing to pay more for the DLCs – even 4x more – so it’s not merely about the price.

Oh, and that whole thing about Tencent not being amateurs? Yeah, I know. Nobody here is impugning their skill at extracting revenue from players. Most of us who complain are questioning whether that’s the right thing to do to their customers. And “everyone else does it” does not make it right, either.

Denversetti · 2022-12-08T07:03:18.564Z

Well if we using cars… as you know there are millions of variants not only Mercedes on the bazaar… so yes, people can afford other cars instead
that’s not how it works there… you want new armor? only 1 model, only 1 price - this is monopoly.
I am totally ok with elite loot for enthusiasts, like godlike armor with wings (glowing etc) for 20 usd, really, if there are 5-6 other variants for 1-5 usd for every one. That’s how market works.
Most of community totally fine with funding devs and games… but not through the limitations and restrictions.

MarcosC · 2022-12-08T13:01:59.412Z

I didn’t have the facts straight about their financial records, but that doesn’t detract much from the point I was making, that the dlcs model was not sustainable.
But you know what… I don’t really care much about this discussion.
Let me just say that I’m perfectly aware you’re not a freeloader or advocate it in some way. But 4x more expensive dlcs would ruin this game in a year.
Well, it’s not as if any of us can do much about it, beyond buying according to our means and let the prices get adjusted based on that.

Yshtola · 2022-12-08T16:06:16.509Z

MarcosC:

that the dlcs model was not sustainable.

To be fair, it wasn’t sustainable because CE is hardly a proper MMO with millions of players like other games that use shops like this. It’s a horribly niche title, that attracts people for niche reasons.

You have some that like the boobs/peens and slaves, some into PvP, others into building and survival. And inevitable overlap of those things.

Conan’s Bazaar is pretty much a piss-poor attempt at this kind of monetization, tbh. They slapped together some reskins and are overcharging for it. It smacks of desperation in drawing in the die hard whales that can afford to piss away money on it without hesitation.

But in the long term, it isn’t going to be sustainable either. Because they aren’t doing it nearly as well as other games.

Games like XIV get by primarily on their subscription fees, rather than their cash shop. Which probably does pretty well, but isn’t nearly as overpriced as Conan, by all I’ve seen. They surely have outfits that cost more for glam purposes.

But the difference in XIV’s model is that they have many more options than Conan has available freely in the game itself.

Same with ESO and it’s model, which is roughly similar to Conan’s, the difference being a large part of ESO’s cash shop is available in-game via grinding and farming. The cash shop just speeds that up.

But let’s lay it out.

Glams are huge in XIV, not so much in Conan. Still, XIV has what…hundreds of options compared to the limited bit we get in Conan. The plan moving forward seems like we’ll get 3 Battle Pass armors for free every 3 or 4 months, -if- we grind for it.

The rest seem to be Bazaar gear. That looks nicer in most cases than stuff we’re getting with the normal in-game gear. And with transmog now being a thing…well glams becomes more of a thing, but if you want in on it, you have to pay.

Building was huge in Conan. Only now…if you want new building pieces, aside from the scattered tidbits the BP offers, you have to pay much, much more. It’s another type of glam game. Wanting to make nice housing, but required to pay large amounts to get a full new set, because they are acting greedy and pushing it on us in a piecemeal fashion.

ESO offers tons of building pieces, and you can freely buy some on their cash shop, or you can farm the blueprints in-game.

The Bazaar essentially feels like a strongarm tactic. If you want to keep up with Conan, you’re forced to shell out hundreds per year. And it’s really just not worth it.

I can buy a new AAA game for $60 to $70 and get more enjoyment out of the few scraps that FC wants me to pay for in Conan. There’s just no real incentive to buy anything from them.

They would have been better off maintaining the old DLC pack setup and just charging 20-30 for it, releasing maybe 2-3 a year. That would have been a much more reasonable draw on players.

But at the end of the day, Conan will only ever be a niche title. Dune will be the same, and they are building it as a proper MMO iirc, but if they keep going like this, it will probably only have a niche fan base like Conan.

MarcosC · 2022-12-08T16:09:32.939Z

It’s a good analysis, @Yshtola . I don’t agree with everything but, basically, you have it right.

CodeMage · 2022-12-08T17:39:10.590Z

MarcosC:

But you know what… I don’t really care much about this discussion.

Neither do I, at least not that aspect of it

This is much more interesting:

MarcosC:

But 4x more expensive dlcs would ruin this game in a year.

You missed my point, but that’s my fault: I said I wouldn’t go into details, and I didn’t, and the devil’s in the details, as always

First, let me explain that my biggest beef is with BLB, not BP. I don’t like BP as a monetization scheme, either, mostly because the BP also relies on a certain degree of FOMO, but at least it’s a lot better than BLB. I’m not gonna go into details about BP, though, because my point about prices has to do with the BLB.

I’ve looked at the latest BLB offerings, and the Stormglass stuff looks really nice. I’m even tempted to spend money on it, and I wanted to mention that so that you’ll understand that I’m actually trying to be as favorable as I can.

You say that 4x more expensive DLCs would ruin this game in a year. Judging from the BLB pictures, there seem to be 21 Stormglass pieces in the Stormglass Sanctum Set. The last DLC I bought, the People of the Dragon, added 103 elements to the game: 41 building pieces, 32 placeables, 15 armor pieces, 12 weapons, and 3 saddles. That’s pretty much 5x as many elements as the BLB offering I’m tempted to buy, for the same price (1200 Crom coins = 10 USD).

In other words, Stormglass Sanctum Set is 5x more expensive than a typical DLC. If charging 4x more for DLCs would ruin the game in a year, why won’t charging 5x more for building pieces?

There are several factors here.

One is that they’re not bundling everything together – building pieces, placeables, armor, weapons, saddles, emotes, and whatever else – but rather letting people pick and choose what they want to buy. I have no problem with this, whatsoever. This is a good thing to do, and it’s reason enough to create a digital store like BLB instead of using DLCs. Again, I would have had no problem with that.

Another factor is that you can bring the price down by buying Crom coins in larger bundles. If you buy the largest bundle (7800 Crom coins = 50 USD), that brings the Stormglass Sanctum Set price down to (approximately) 7.7 USD, which makes it only 2.7x more expensive than a DLC. This is where I start disliking the system, because now you’re essentially gambling: I gave Funcom 50 USD, will they have enough offerings for me to spend that, or will I end up giving them money without spending it in their store?

The final factor to consider is the “rotation” time. Stormglass Sanctum Set will only be there for a month. Better get it now, at this price, because maybe you’ll never see it again! And yeah, I know they said they would be rotating all the stuff back in, but when it comes to monetization, they haven’t given me reason to trust them yet. FOMO is FOMO, and the excuses about keeping the content “above the fold” are flimsy. We all know why these timers exist in these stores. Not only that, but anyone new to the game will not have watched all the dev streams, so they won’t know that this stuff will (supposedly) be back later.

At the risk of being jumped and insulted by some people who get triggered when someone even mentions “FOMO”, I’ll say this is one of my biggest problems with this monetization scheme.

So yeah, I wouldn’t have minded a BLB with 4x higher prices and smaller bundles. Maybe even 5x, as this Sanctum Set, which I might even end up buying.

If you’re telling me that 4x higher prices would have ruined the game because people couldn’t pick and choose, then I can totally agree with you and say that I would’ve welcomed a BLB like that. But if you’re telling me that 4x higher prices would have ruined the game because it’s necessary to obfuscate the prices behind a virtual currency, and manipulate players into spending money with FOMO tactics, then that’s where we have a disagreement.

I doubt that having a cleaner, more straightforward, more honest monetization would have doomed this game. I don’t think that’s what will decide whether the game survives or not. If it survives with it, I’m sure it could have survived without it. And conversely, if it would have failed without it, than I’m convinced it will fail with it, too.

I hope that helps you understand my complaints about the monetization.

MarcosC · 2022-12-08T17:42:43.115Z

@CodeMage really you are extremely funny. You don’t realize your excellent post and analysis is exactly the reason why dlcs 4x more expensive would fail. The detail that you are missing is that few people buy that rationaly and go by their immediate perception instead. Only a few do the math you just did. These monetization systems are used because they work. They get sales. 4x more expensive dlcs wouldn’t. Let me just add that in the end most people spend more than if they had bought a 4x more expensive dlc. Why do you think people go broke? Because they’re smart?

Tuffman · 2022-12-08T18:01:23.269Z

I really don’t think you understand business and finance at all.

Your car ability is totally bogus, there is competition between car manufacturers so of course there is variation in cost and luxury.

Funcom owns every right the Conan Exiles, so of course there isn’t going to be competition and they can set pricing to whatever benefits them most.

Car manufacturers don’t have different models and pricing for the benefit of the consumer either. They have different models and pricing to try and capture other areas of the market. In a game like this, there is no market.

CodeMage · 2022-12-08T18:35:21.505Z

MarcosC:

The detail that you are missing is that few people buy that rationaly and go by their immediate perception instead. Only a few do the math you just did.

I’m not missing that detail. I didn’t write this “analysis” because I expect everyone to do that. I wrote it to discuss different aspects of the current monetization, to explain what I meant when I talked about 4x prices, and to try to understand which aspect(s) of the current monetization you think will make the difference between “ruining the game in a year” and providing a successful source of revenue.

Like I tried to explain – with that whole wall of text – I wasn’t saying “why didn’t they just bump the DLC prices to 4x”, but rather “my complaints about BLB aren’t merely about the price, here’s what I like and what I object to”.

I’ll be honest, I find your response discouraging for two reasons. One is that you simply disregarded everything I wrote and said “the scheme works because it works”. Of course, you have no obligation to care for this discussion. Let’s just say I feel a bit silly for having tried to reach a shared understanding

The other discouraging thing that bothers me about your reply is this:

MarcosC:

Why do you think people go broke? Because they’re smart?

That’s just saying “people are stupid and they deserve to be treated accordingly”. It’s also saying “anyone who goes broke is dumb and deserves it”, but I don’t want to go into that right now.

Honestly, I’m just saddened by that point of view. On the other hand, it sends me a pretty clear signal that I should stop wasting your time and mine with this discussion. So I’ll heed that signal and stop my yapping.

MarcosC · 2022-12-08T19:06:14.446Z

my god, you think I approve exploring people?
Most people are not that wise when it comes to money spendig. That’s a fact, not a moral judgment. Then they go broke because of their own actions. Oh, the big bad business was responsible for their poor choices! They are victims! Keep telling them that and they will never grow wiser.
You want people’s actions not to have consequences? Then you live in another world.
You’re smart. You do the math. People who live on a short budget have the moral obligation of doing it too.
Businesses are there to make money. If you don’t mind your wallet, you’ll end up broke and it’s on you, not on them. Why? Because when you have offers like those of the BLB, I’m the target, not the guy who lives on a short budget. He needs to have priorities. Should funcom not entice me because joe broke can’t control his spending impulses on totally futile digital goods? You also need to think about their side. They take advantage that for a lot of people 20 bucks means nothing. And that’s fine. We know we’re buying overpriced futile goods. But we don’t mind because it makes no difference. It’s a whim we pay for. We know that. But make me a business proposal and I’ll scan you to the marrow. When it matters, I’m extremely careful. When it doesn’t, I indulge myself.
The world you want doesn’t exist, @CodeMage . It should, but it doesn’t.

Denversetti · 2022-12-08T19:26:14.340Z

Are you shareholder?
So… you are not standing for the diversification of propositions and don’t want to players have more options to choose?
Errrrm… hmmm…
Its not a position of fellow gamer…
We dont get you guys (most of community), why there is always some1 who defend BAD changes for the gamers?
@CodeMage totally right, what the hell guys? cmon we are on the same side

Tuffman · 2022-12-08T19:55:25.333Z

Funcom making enough money to continue developing content for this game is not a bad change for gamers.

It’s an unwelcome change for people who want to have access to everything and don’t care to pay the set price for it. Which is fine, and you’re free to complain about it.

Denversetti · 2022-12-08T19:57:58.262Z

Tuffman:

want to have access to everything and don’t care to pay

Ahhh sh… here we go again

Tuffman · 2022-12-08T20:09:13.452Z

I call a duck a duck my friend.

Denversetti · 2022-12-08T20:11:17.130Z

CodeMage · 2022-12-08T20:18:45.609Z

MarcosC:

Then they go broke because of their own actions. Oh, the big bad business was responsible for their poor choices! They are victims! Keep telling them that and they will never grow wiser.

You know what? I was actually writing a whole wall of text, again, to reply to this, but I realized it’s not worth it. If you want to believe you’re in so much control of your life that there’s no way you would go broke due to circumstances out of your control, then I see no reason to argue about your illusions. I just wish nothing ever happens to you to disabuse you of that notion.

And if you and @Tuffman want to pretend that this discussion is all about “wanting something for nothing”, and making Funcom go out of business for the sake of “Joe Broke”, and similar strawman arguments, then that’s your own affair.

There’s only one more thing I wanted to bring up:

MarcosC:

Should funcom not entice me because joe broke can’t control his spending impulses on totally futile digital goods?

If you’re actually somehow “enticed” by a timer saying that some digital goods will stop being available after 30 days, then you have no ground to sneer at the (entirely fictional) people who can’t control their spending in BLB.

syx · 2022-12-08T20:21:26.042Z

Bazaar prices are more expensive than Korean mmo cosmetic shops lol

MarcosC · 2022-12-08T20:47:23.274Z

CodeMage:

If you want to believe you’re in so much control of your life that there’s no way you would go broke due to circumstances out of your control, then I see no reason to argue about your illusions. I just wish nothing ever happens to you to disabuse you of that notion.

It can happen to anyone, but not because I don’t know how to manage my wealth.
I told you I was extremely careful. It’s my job to be extremely careful. I’m good at it. A disaster may happen, but I have taken precautions.
Do you think I never took risks? Or didn’t work 14h a day for years, traveling over 12 countries in a year? You don’t know me or my life. I know things can get out of hand. I saw people rise and fall and I learned from it. I was taught from a young age how to do what I do by people who had spent their lives doing it.

Don’t think for a minute I am cold hearted rich bastard who couldn’t care less about the poor or who believes being poor results from stupidity. That might be why you don’t get rich, but it’s very far from being the main reason why you get very poor. I became successful at a young age. That’s how I found time for gaming, a passion of old. At this point, I have a lot of time available. I spend it with my family and gaming, mostly. But a part of that time I spend with my family is doing voluntary work for the homeless. I see tragedy every week. A lot of people talk about helping. I actually devote a good parcel of my time doing it, not to feel good or brag about it, but because I feel for them, people like you and me. And you won’t see a single mention about any of it in my social spaces. I am not the person you might be imagining.

What I am is very realistic and know how money works. A lot of people think they do, but you don’t learn this in college, not the finer points.

What I can tell you from my experience is that this monetization system is much more ethical than you claim. Through it, we ALL contribute, even if just by keep playing the game that gets new content on a regular basis. Even players who don’t buy shit benefit and add value by playing the game. As you know, this can be translated in monetary value.
Most people will buy the BP and occasionally one thing or two from the BLB. They add value directly and indirectly.
Finally, some people will buy everything, because the amount of money it costs is irrelevant to their finances.
Everyone has value, every single player and everyone benefits.

Again, and I wrote this before, I know you aren’t a freeloader or support it. Jesus, I wrote that one or two posts back! I’m not insinuating nothing of what you are accusing me.

I know you are just explaining alternative ways of financing the game, arguably more ethical. Fine. I never said this was the ONLY way. But Tencent is a mean aggressive shark, very good at what they do (you have no idea how good they really are, but I do) and they will do whatever delivers them a bigger profit. There’s only so much the players can do about it. They know what works and they will do just that. I am not saying I approve it, only that they are doing their job.

To end, I really don’t give a f about timers. I buy all that I like the moment I see it. That is to pressure those who are managing their spending. I don’t need to do it when the values involved are of this magnitude. So yes, they have the right to entice me, and I have the right of wanting them to, but timers have nothing to do with it. Wealthy people also have rights, you know? (I’m joking now, in case you missed it).

Love you dude.

Tuffman · 2022-12-08T21:00:52.514Z

Because I laugh at anyone arguing any other position in regards to luxury video game cosmetics.

We aren’t talking about food. No one needs any of this. There’s no philosophy or ethics involved here.

If you want it, buy it. If you don’t, your game still works just fine.

CodeMage · 2022-12-08T22:07:21.400Z

MarcosC:

Don’t think for a minute I am cold hearted rich bastard who couldn’t care less about the poor or who believes being poor results from stupidity.

I don’t think that, but I also don’t think that I’m going to be able to change your mind about how you view people who haven’t had the same circumstances you did. I’ve had my own share of hardships, and also my own share of good luck, and if life taught me one thing, it’s that even those of us who have had to go through bad times, and put in a lot of effort, and take important risks, and make sacrifices – even we have certain privileges we should acknowledge.

There’s always some aspect in which we had a head start, and always some aspect in which someone else had a head start over us. But asking people to acknowledge that has always been unpopular, and it has only grown less popular in these last few years.

This is not, and has never been, about being rich, or about impulse control, or about personal responsibility, or anything like that. It’s about what’s right and what’s… less right?

MarcosC:

But Tencent is a mean aggressive shark, very good at what they do (you have no idea how good they really are, but I do) and they will do whatever delivers them a bigger profit. There’s only so much the players can do about it. They know what works and they will do just that. I am not saying I approve it, only that they are doing their job.

Maybe you don’t approve it, but you are raising the “they’re only doing their job” argument in direct opposition to those of us who say the way they’re doing it is not right. Remember, this discussion between you and me, the one we’re in right now, started when I said that I’m not merely objecting to the prices here (because I would have been willing to pay even 4x more), and that most of us who are complaining are questioning whether what Funcom is doing to their customers is right.

Right from the start, since they implemented BLB until today, my complaints have always been about whether this is the right way to treat people. Basically, it’s about ethics of this monetization. A lot of people have been “just doing their job” over the course of the history, but we don’t approve of what they were doing anymore.

Maybe you don’t approve it, either, but you definitely go to some lengths to argue against those of us who criticize it

MarcosC:

So yes, they have the right to entice me, and I have the right of wanting them to, but timers have nothing to do with it.

Seeing as how timers are one of my main complaints, and seeing as how you were replying to me and not someone else, how exactly are they “enticing” you then, and what was it that I said that led you to believe I’m saying they shouldn’t entice you?

Just for the record, because tone can be hard to interpret here: I’m asking out of genuine interest.

Tuffman:

There’s no philosophy or ethics involved here.

You keep telling yourself that, if it makes you happier