Pointless whinging thread about swearing filters

[DanQuixote]

Gosh darn it all to heck!

Well, that and the title pretty much sums up my point, I guess my work here is done

But seriously, these forums are for a game with nudity, graphic violence and beating people unconscious to make them your slave. It even comes with a ‘mature gamer’ warning (which some of us even resemble, at least physically ). Can we not be trusted to police our own swearing on these forums? (Well, no, clearly not, I’ve seen these forums… But the point still stands, dash it all.)

Of course, a company has every right to make whatever rules it wants in this context, but it just seems a trifle inconsistent with the themes of the game. And sometimes so-called ‘bad language’ can be the most effective way to emphasise a point there can be a world of difference between saying that something is ‘frustrating’ and that something is ‘■■■■■■■ frustrating’ - and it’s not like the filter achieves anything meaningful, since 90% of readers know exactly what I just typed there… It’s rather like the Tim Minchin bit about newspapers using f’asterisk’ 'asterisk’k as a disguise, and pointing out that its a f**king poor disguise…

Beyond this, policing language by whatever method can be inherently dangerous - at best it is well-meaning but ineffectual as suggested above, but it has the potential at any time to turn into policing of thought (to be clear, I don’t believe Funcom is, or has any intention of, doing this). Some might argue that dangerous or unpleasant ideas need to be suppressed, but I’m of the opinion that it’s always better to have these ideas expressed and argued in public, so that a wider audience gets exposed to the arguments against them. And who decides what ideas are or are not forbidden? And what happens when your ideological enemies gain control of this decision-making? Anyway, I’m getting rather beyond the actual scope of what is done by the forum’s swearing filters, so I’ll leave this point before it turns into a full lecture…

To be clear - I don’t expect anything to change regarding these swearing filters. Sometimes it’s good just to complain about something unimportant

Edit: forum mistook the Tim Minchin bit for a command to put things in bold…

[droch-aon]

Personally I don’t believe in bad words. Only society seems to dictate what is considered proper and what is not.

40 or so years ago my Wife got very angry with me and asked I curb my profanity, when I was only using what was to me common vernacular.

I believe in this case the censorship filter comes from the forum host, rather than FunCom.

Years ago I was active on an Artist Forum, I was eventually asked to moderate then Administer those forums, we were a community of artists, nudity was not regulated in sharing our work in posts.
But language was, there was a profanity filter. This filter was imposed by the forum host website.

It is for this reason I believe the filter here is imposed by the forum host, in order to be hosted you need to comply with the hosts regulations.

If you look at the URL you can see the word “forum” comes before “funcom” if you remove everything past the word forum and search, you’ll see many gamer forums from many game developers are hosted by the same forum website.

[JJDancer]

Agreed, this is a pointless whining thread about filters. If you cannot get your point across without swearing, then you should just stop posting. Stop trying to make this an infringement on your rights thing please, we are all really tired of that same old song and dance BS.

[Glurin]

Sometimes a “bad word” is the most accurate and effective way to express an idea. Now that doesn’t mean having a sailor mouth is a good thing. If every other word of your post is a curse word, that’s taking things a bit far and makes you come off more like the much despised thirteen year old trying to sound cool.

Personally, I’m fine with just letting the filter turn the worst ones into asterisks and leave it at that. And by worst ones, I mean that small handful of words that are pretty universal or exclusive in their meaning. (Within the language being spoken of course.) When you try to censor any word that could potentially be offensive to somebody somewhere in the world even though 99% of the time it isn’t, that’s when you run into filter caused communication problems.

[rolee9309]

It is hard NOT to say curse words because it can hurt somebody, and just strange to me. In Hungary there is a LOT of swear words, we use them regularly, sometimes we don’t even realize how much we use it, because other Hungarians barely get offended by these kind of words. AND IT DOES NOT MAKE US UNCULTURED!! We just have a wide variety of bad words to express ourselves as you said @Glurin.

When I first was introduced to any kind of international interactive sites it was sooo strange to see people getting hurt over cursative. (I’m not speaking about directed curses like “you son of a wh__e” or something like this, but saying “f** you, that was funny” or “you are sooo idiot” is not really an offense.)

So if the game could contain profane language, probably I wouldn’t even notice it.

[prologue1337]

I’m against censorship
But when it endangers other people, then it must met muted as quickly as possible

Cursing is okay, not very mature but w/e everyone curses from time to time
But spreading hatred isn’t okay sadly this is harder to censor.

[sestus2009]

Here is a example of cursing I have a issue with. (The game is dieing). Good day all heading to work doing inventory today will be much profanity. Stress relief

[prologue1337]

Ohh man, you are so right…

[Mbeat]

There’s a difference between public discourse and ratings advice for game content mate.

But thanks for pointing this out.

[DanQuixote]

@droch-aon

Personally I don’t believe in bad words. Only society seems to dictate what is considered proper and what is not.

I completely agree. The whole concept of ‘bad language’ is pretty nonsensical - surely the only true bad language is language that fails to convey the intended meaning? (And I’m sure you’re completely correct about the filter coming from the host - makes perfect sense that it would be.)

@JJDancer

all really tired of that same old song and dance BS

Now JJ - if you can’t get your point across without swearing, maybe you should just stop posting (To be clear, no I don’t think you should stop posting, but you see how easy it is? In my opinion, it’s not about infringement of my rights, it’s about the potentially dangerous tendency we seem to have developed in the modern world to try to censor ideas - swearing filters are the absolute bottom rung of that, but all rungs on that ladder still lead to the same place.)

@Glurin

Sometimes a “bad word” is the most accurate and effective way to express an idea. Now that doesn’t mean having a sailor mouth is a good thing.

Exactly! There is no need to swear, and most of us are fully capable of communicating ideas without doing so - but sometimes doing so will communicate an idea far more efficiently than otherwise.

@Halk

Agreed. F**k this b****y filter
It’s threshold is unreasonably low and that’s just silly.

And the funny thing is - you presumably came up against the same thing I did when typing this - one of the two words you used isn’t even picked up by the filter - but would (in the UK) be generally considered more offensive than many of the words that the filters do pick up.

@rolee9309

we use them regularly, sometimes we don’t even realize how much we use it, because other Hungarians barely get offended

I know exactly what you mean - casual insults and swearing at each other is something I’m used to with friends. Typing is obviously a different mental circuit than speaking, which certainly helps, but it can be an adjustment when you first start interacting on international sites.

@Halk

Unfortunately when you mix a bunch of different people from different cultures, you have to set the bar to fit the needs of the most sensitive

So Americans then
But seriously - that is actually the one good argument for such filters that I’ve seen. Of course, there is always the risk that the ‘one voice from on high’ that sets the rules ‘for the good of the vulnerable’ often doesn’t actually seem to have any interest in helping the vulnerable, and instead may have more interest in controlling everyone else. But that doesn’t eliminate the principle as being a good one.

@prologue1337

But spreading hatred isn’t okay sadly this is harder to censor

I’d actually argue that censoring hatred is more dangerous rather than less so. Those are the ideas that need to be dragged out into the light of day and confronted with sound argument, rather than just dismissed and hidden away. Hiding these ideas doesn’t get rid of them, it just moves them away from the mainstream - those who might fall for such ideas will still encounter them, but will now do so without encountering the counterpoints and the evidence against them. The ‘spreaders of hate’ end up free to recruit others because they are the only voices speaking on the subject.

@sestus2009

Here is a example of cursing I have a issue with. (The game is dieing)

Definitely gets tiring to keep reading over and over again. I’d certainly rather see some swearing than the same repetitive claims again. I hope the inventory went well (and didn’t cause too much profanity ).

@Mbeat

There’s a difference between public discourse and ratings advice for game content mate

Absolutely, and so there should be. I just think there’s a certain dark humour in not being allowed to swear when discussing a game with such themes.

Just one further thought for folks to consider - many of the words that we consider ‘bad language’ were historically fine, and it is ultimately politics that decided they were ‘bad’. The majority of swearwords in English were just normal Anglo-Saxon words - it’s just that the Norman conquest lead to a nobility that spoke French (‘polite society’) and a commonality that spoke English (‘the rough commons’). It’s the same process that led us to have two words for many farm animals - cow/beef, sheep/mutton, pig/pork - the nobility generally saw the meat only when it came to the table, and so their word for the animal became the term to describe the meat, while the peasantry spent time with the animals, so their word remained the name for the animal itself. For example, one of the words widely considered the absolute worst of bad language actually referred originally to a small leather pouch containing sharpening stones that saxon men traditionally wore around their neck.

[NeoTheMatrix]

@prologue1337

Cursing is okay, not very mature but w/e everyone curses from time to time
But spreading hatred isn’t okay sadly this is harder to censor.

Cursing maybe is ok, well as u know on siptah there is Bitc* scent weapon and so on, even naked womans runs around tossing tits( lool this word is banned too , i cant use ■■■■ies word i guess someone used it to harass womans :C what a racoon( OMG this one too and Coon too, oh i did not even know its swear word xDDD ) from left to right asking in clan and so on… But when u go to some ugly cube building to destroy it, some guy random runs on it and bugs timers, and later swears on all server with words that is tier 3 and starts ethnical hate and calls everyone racists that trys to tell him to go away, and lastly citate from guy “” yes every russian is like me"" … I dont know even why that scum still plays on server even i think 3 + peoples reported him for griefing, bug usage and ethnic hate xD…

U cant censore this atleast… and its based on how actual one human thinks about it

Like word bitc* scent is meh, but when someone starts use it on humans and like straight to one person in other languages i guess it should be muted but because humans are so much and stupid, its impossible to follow it all, so i guess its easier to just make one word in sword filter that user looks like idiot with saying cube words , than actuall follow how u use the word…

I mean u can say bitc* scent on weapon - its ok its even female term of dog

but when one idiot in game all the time use this word in russian pointing its your parents its not ok

ssoo filters basically blocks every word and thats easier than read that one guy just use it not right…

---

Edit damn after this what i writed i learned new swear words xDDD nice pain was to make this text readable

[rolee9309]

[rolee9309]

@DanQuixote

any of the words that we consider ‘bad language’ were historically fine

Just like in the names: Dick is a surname for Richard.
Or a cooler: in Hungary n á c i (you spell it as n@zi) is a surname for Ignác (khmm Ignasis )

[DanQuixote]

That’s certainly a reasonable position (although, insert Tywin Lannister quote about tearing out a man’s tongue ). That said, I find myself questioning whether these ideas are truly dragged into the spotlight by social media - certainly they show up all over the place (and certainly few listen to the arguments against them), but the very filters and censors used by social media actually seem to wind up limiting the potential for proper argument against them, at least as much as they censor the ideas themselves. People interested in those ideas will still tend to find them, but now they congregate together somewhere ‘away’ from everyone else, which means their ideas just reinforce each other (the classic echo chamber).

I remember watching a video by a German youtuber about a former German political party (you know the one - and the fact that I have to be careful about using that word, even in a discussion such as this where its context is clear, rather sums up my issue). Rather than just flat out condemn, he went to the effort of addressing some of their stronger claims and explaining exactly how the ‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ they were using were distorted. Clearly, this won’t persuade someone who is already convinced, but maybe it puts enough doubt in the mind of someone who was wavering and might otherwise have only seen the ‘evidence’ from the other side. I doubt he could release such a video today, as it is likely that social media’s now stronger filters would reject it.

[prologue1337]

I love ti-ts

[JJDancer]

@DanQuixote

any of the words that we consider ‘bad language’ were historically fine

So was the inquisition, the Treaty of Tordesillas, Slavery, Etc. We either learn from history and become better human beings, or we sink into the abyss of ignorance and whataboutism.

[DanQuixote]

I certainly agree with your sentiment, but the actual full context of that comment from me was-

@DanQuixote

many of the words that we consider ‘bad language’ were historically fine, and it is ultimately politics that decided they were ‘bad’

I’m not trying to suggest that because something was fine in the past it should be ok now - and I’m glad you bought that up, because perhaps I should have made that more clear as it is a very important point. What I’m trying to point out there is that the reasons some words were declared to be ‘bad’ or ‘coarse language’ was precisely because they were the language used by the labourers, not by the elites. That certainly doesn’t mean that they have the same contextual meaning now (as you rightly point out), but the reasons behind the change bother me.

It’s like the US insult ‘redneck’ - originally this just referred to people who worked outdoors - a person’s neck inevitably getting red in the sun. Meanwhile, those with indoor jobs (and high starched collars) were seen (and treated) as a better class of person, so redneck in time evolved to be an insult. But at its core, the insult is saying ‘ha ha, you’re a lower class labourer’. (Similarly, idiot, moron etc were all medical diagnoses specifying a particular level of IQ.). As a result, I dislike terms like redneck/idiot/moron - because I view them as elitist, and I guess I dislike the idea of saxon words as ‘bad’ because that view of them came from a similar elitism.

Ultimately, I tend towards a fairly extreme view of free speech and its importance - but that’s personal opinion (that I will happily argue to back up, as seen throughout this thread ) - it’s certainly not a principle that applies in the same way to a forum run by a private company. (Which is part of why I titled the thread ‘pointless whinging’ in the first place )

[rolee9309]

Just because we don’t use “bad” words (because for some it might be bad, for some it isn’t) and don’t curse it does not make us better humans.
I mean… humans as a species can’t be better (or even good), as history showed, there were always unnecessary wars, etc. We can try however, I don’t think I am a bad person because I swear, I see people are good or not based on their actions not their choice of words.

It is not ignorance to not avoid words as hard as possible, and if you were to be the best person in the world, that doesn’t change the fact that humans as an animal species is not capable of live peacefully. With advanced brains we understand what we are doing (and it is a lot of times wrong on so many levels), but we can’t do otherwise.

Other two examples are :

• chimpanzees who intentionally kill other chimps AND gorillas to extend their territory - other animals kill only if their territory is in danger, but not for gaining extra lands.
• and dolphins that rape other species for their own enjoyment, and it has no evolutionary benefit, just for “fun”.

Both of them are one of the most intelligent and most agressive species besides humans.

I wasn’t targeting you I just don’t believe that we can change our own evolution, our own species in a matter of our lifetime.

[DanQuixote]

@JJDancer I hope you don’t feel ‘got at’ or outnumbered by receiving replies from a couple of us. I realise that receiving several posts at once on the forums can easily feel like an avalanche. I just wanted to make clear that I am enjoying having an opposing viewpoint presented - IMO debating these sorts of things can be a good way to work through our own positions and explore our own reasoning, as much as it is a chance to try to convince others.

[Tuffman]

Censoring a group of “profane” words does not censor ideas, this is utter nonsense. Even if it did, this is a video game forum and not insert whatever governmental forum you want here. Its privately owned and operated, so they’re welcome to do what they want. If they suddenly decide tomorrow that every post you make has to include a picture of a cow, well guess what. This forum is also intended to be used by everyone interested in this game. The 18+ rating of the game itself is of no importance, and doesn’t indicate that there are no boundaries. Not everyone plays this game online; some, perhaps, because they choose to avoid interacting with a group of folks who use language they don’t care for. As such, it is best to keep this a language neutral place.

Finally. I curse, a lot, like a lot a lot, when I speak. I don’t get offended by language. However, this is written communication. You have the time to sit down, think of a response, reread it, alter word choice, etc. I do not agree with the sentiment that using an expletive is the most effective way to convey your message with written language because most often expletives are used to substitute a myriad of other words that are more well defined. I cannot think of any book really, that I consider well written, that uses them outside of character dialogue. Expletives in this venue of communication are not any indication of intelligence, but they are terribly lazy.