Often it’s us players who have altered the tactics in rf from what is typically done …
Example: t3 lower three bro fight in RF is done how a Kiwi raid leader started doing the real t3 for fun and challenge when he was running t3 crafts … (of course he might have nicked the idea from other raids)
The t4 Sheng RF tactics can be done in the real raid …and who’s to say what came first ? Its just not typically done like that
That’s actually quite interesting. But it’d be helpful if the most used/agreed upon tactics are taught in the rf, so when people go to the real raids (if they bother going) they have some semblance of what to do, vs following the crowd. 3.5 as an example. But then that’d also require people to bother paying attention. Which, given the few RF experiences I’ve suffered so far, is slim to none after the first day.
@Xaun: Nephturi did not agree with you. Read again. Saying T4 gear is not enough to go to T6 is not the same as claiming that…what exactly? It does not matter how fast people can farm T4 gear because there is T6 gear? Pretty passiv-aggressiv attitude.
By no means does the raidfinder need even more or better loot. Why? Simple: The rewards are given for not even playing the game.
There is still no system or mechanic in place that prevents people from standing at the entrance afk or whatever. You get T4 gear for literally doing nothing.
T3 would have been a much better reward for the raidfinder, and would have added much more positive to the game. Full T3 is a very good starting point for Khitai/Turan/Dragonspine Dungeons, even for bad players. But it would not have made almost all dungeon content obsolet.
At various points individuals have tried to push for that but meet resistance as its deemed unnecessary for the rf to complete and can make the fights longer. And also harder to complete if you apply real raid tactics and it takes longer so people die to damage or failure to execute mechanics …eg more likely you will have someone fail to get out of the living firestorm a o e the more of those that spawn over longer fight duration…
In some cases it impossible to do the real tactics because of the changes that Funcom made (eg Zodiac in RF … not possible to teach any puzzle solving or boss spawning as it’s all done automatically by the game)
I’ve done all the raids in rf for real before rf came out. Often now the starting point for teaching the real raids is: “so have you seen this in RF, Ok good … what we have to do different is…” and it can save time to teach even though it’s different.
I was not clear enough, I meant it is a over the top starting point, but helpfull for bad or unexperienced players to succeed faster solo and in dungeons, but at the same it would not kill the dungeons and questing in Khitai and Dragonspine.
I have to give raidfinder that and agree with @Kwalya - if new people have seen the raids the explantation in real raids can get shorter, sometimes it even helps if people are familiar with the room, and which targets apear. But there are also people who think they know what to do because they saw the raids in raidfinder, and insist on just blindly executing the “rf tactic”. They do not move out of AoE, and just “try” if things can be done the same way as in rf, even if experienced people and raidleads tell them they CA NOT. Commanding Death? But every class can kill it and or you only have to kite it for a short preiod of seconds, I show you…Yeah…not^^ Thanks for the unneccessary wipe…
Why does every conversation about any topic turn into pro and cons of the raidfinder?
Perhaps, I didn’t explain why I feel what I feel very well due to having imbibed some grog and being that it was extremely late and I was just about to pass out. So allow me to clarify my position.
Given the nature of individuals who are doing RF they don’t want to learn, they are happy to afk token farm; something that annoys me to no end. However, asking a large group of people to change their behavior is far more difficult than changing how something mechanically works, as has been proven time and time again in that the RF encounters have been nerfed into the ground. As a serious gamer who wants to learn the mechanics and wants everyone to cooperate this is very frustrating to me. So I asked myself the question… “What is the purpose of RF?”
Outside of guild raids (which can only be done once per week) RF is the only way to farm T4 Tokens. I also agree with the perspective that 6 man dungeons should offer a chance at the lower Tier raid tokens. It would give players more options for gearing up and thus make the game more fun and enjoyable. Also, you conceded the point that the mechanics of RF are significantly different than in a guild raid. So, your argument that it should be a place to learn mechanics does not hold up. Not to mention the fact that you, yourself even stated that just having T4 gear will not help you be ready for Tier 5+.
Since you made that statement then I see it as backing my position in the complaint that the purpose of RF as being a token farm just to help people get mediocre at best gear is not an issue. If people could farm T6 tokens in RF then I would not be holding this position. I would simply concede the point and call it a day. But alas, getting T4 gear is just the beginning. After obtaining T4 gear you will still need lots of learning and practice with your guild mates to be capable of successfully completing any of the Tier 4 or Tier 5 raid content as a guild.
So, I was proposing that downing the final boss should give at least 1 T4 token (+200% membership bonus) every time to incentivize people to learn the mechanics needed to take down the final boss of an RF dungeon. This would be a much better option because of how bad someone’s luck can be with RF random loot boxes. I am a BS so I have completed lots of RFs and I can tell you that for an entire week I had the misfortune of getting between 7s (green box) and 1 T4 token (at best) from over 24 boxes. That means that in doing a raid 6 times I only received 3 T4 tokens. This has lowered my interests in playing the game. Something, I am sure Funcom does not want to do. They should want players to feel as though they are being consistently rewarded for their efforts and progressing ever toward their goals.
Yes I raid with my guild nightly and we have cleared T1, T2 and parts of T3 and T3.5, but, many people are still getting T3 gear and like myself have hit a wall on obtaining T4. I am literally doing T1/2/3/3.5 simply to help the guild practice coordination and cooperation. I get literally no progression value from it because I am already wearing a mix of all T3 and T4 gear. RF is the only place I can progress in any way and it is a slow and frustrating experience.
Thanks for the clarification, now it makes a lot more sense, at last to me.
I have to disagree, this are exactly the points that show a very different mindset of different players. I see no need to be constantly rewarded, my first and foremost reward is the fun and joy I feel just playing the game, seeing people progress, having a good time. I don’t want reward for my time or participation, but for goals I achive, for getting better, playing better and successfully. And rewards are by far not only items and loot. Playing group content like raids in a guild IS the progression value - for me, not everyone feels that way.
Are you a new player? Because for veteran players gearing up T4 via raidfinder is not slow at all, it is fast like hell (note that I do NOT say that I want new players to need 2 years like we did to gear a character full T4 (and that with luck only)). It is gear you would have never ever seen or even get a chance on obtaining it befor the raidfinder, only if you were actually able to clear T4. So it already IS the extra mile that you can even get it, and pretty fast. It is by no means mediocre gear, it is far better gear than you need to do any content other than T4,5,6, so for everyone who does not do this content it is just personal “progression value”, and a chance to help out at guild raids with superior gear and make them smoother like you do.
As Nephturi allready pointed out the gear progression in raidfinder is way faster than the learning curve (even assuming that people do other stuff then raidfinder, learning their toons) a player needs to be able to add positivly to a real T4 raid instead of beeing a burden, and that is right. I see it in our T4 raids. You make it sound as if the natural progression for a player is gearing up to full T4 (anyway he wants, RF and real raids), and then obtain T5 and T6 gear. That is not the case. Even if you gear up in T4 in real raids, learn how to raid and to react, grow your aa tree until you match the character requirements for T5/6 you are not neccesairly ready to go there. There are very few guilds and raidforces that even can clear T5/6, you will hit a MASSIVE wall. Because getting T4 is so fast and easy and supresses every learning curve people who are barely able to clear T2 now stand around in full T4 demanding to “get the LOOOTZ of T5/6”. If you think helping your guild in T3/3,5 without loot for you is frsutrating you will never ever stay to raid the higher raids in a progression raid. No loot for month for you, helas, even years (you will be T4 full long long long befor your guild will be able to kill anything in T4, and you will have to wait even longer until you can kill the first boss in T5/6). People with the mindset that loot is the mst important reward will not stay long in a newish raiding group.
On a side note: If your guild is the one I think it is gear is not the problem and not the reason that holds you back from progress. It is the leadership and raidleads who prefer to whine for hours during a raid in TS that they desperatly need help and advice to lead the raid, but shut down even the friendliest offers for help. They steal peoples time because their “reward and progression value” is the drama they create around themselves.
T4 gear is not mediocre, its really good. You can do t6 easily with it without sweat. We had a couple of t1 players when we killed last boss t6 on saga.
Like stated million times already RF should never have been implemented the way it was designed from the beginning, and activating it the same way on Saga killed the good qualities of the server within hours.
Saga was healthy and alive in all types of content in the game, and u could see new players finally getting into the natural progress of things, being social learning from scratch. As soon as RF activated, 6man dungeons, pvp, crafting
and alot of pugraiding activity died, per usual when the rewards make 95% of the game obsolete. One would think a company would have passion and pride of their products, inb4 nullifying all the qualitiy hard work of the past… /emo soap-opera off
Ok, we are on opposite sides of the idea of time sinks. AA’s are already a massive time sink, gearing up is another massive time sink. Yes, I realize that much of the dungeon content is obsolete (check my 1st post in this thread for more on that subject). I am just feeling extremely overwhelmed by time sinks and I know that many other people have to be feeling the pain too. As a person with a wife and kids I simply do not have that much time to devote to gaming like I used to when I was a kid. I’m fast approaching 40 (I turn 39 this year) and value my time a little bit more so extreme grinds tend to become unfun.
Perhaps part of the issue for me as a Bear Shaman is that none of my gear until Tier 4 comes with any +heal rating on it. Which makes me feel meh… When My Tier 3 gear is far better than the Tier 3.5 dungeon gear, which I cannot obtain anyway because no one wants to run dungeons. It is just further frustrating to me. I know BS are a hybrid class, but knowing that there is gear right there if only I could farm enough tokens to purchase it that has heal rating… I’d be more relaxed about gearing up if Tier 1,2,3 also had +heal rating on it.
What is your goal with the game? To reach good gear or having fun doing dungeons, questing, raiding, pvping?
If my only goal with a game was to get good gear without enjoying the content, i would never play that game, there are better ways to get fast meaningless rewards, try mobilegames with microtransactions.
No need to feel so stressed, when saga is done u will continue on crom. Regarding healrating. Its not especially important untill u do t4 raids and up. Untill you do those raids. U dont need it. When u do those raids, you will get it.
Don’t stress yourself out over healrating. The raids you are doing with your guild will be absolutly fine with healers with low or none healrating. In T3,5 it will help, of course, but you get some gear along with tokens from the first boss.
A BS is an excellent supporter of any group even without healrating. Keeping up your hots, manis, runes, debuffs, dps with a good timing for your big heal will get you far.
In fact as a BS you depend much much less on healrating than POM or TOS. You only need it for Celestial Gaze, and maybe in situations where you want to use Sleuth of Bears over the…thing…vision thing…(which most tanks and DPS prefer over Bears anyway). And fun fact: You only need the healrating right in the moment you cast CG or Bears - so what you really want is a healrating weapon, and switch weapons ONLY right befor you cast one of these two casts. After casting switch back to dps weapon.
I cross my fingers for lucky loot on the third boss T3,5 - for your situation that seems to be the best way to get a healrating (and or awesome dps) weapon.
Now I would like to ask you how can the loot increase in the RFs have positive benefits at game when already so they killed the game?
Many players in AoC have always been accused of problems with the “elistist” (and I would like you to take a ride on other games to understand what really means elitism, try games like Archeage: gear less than 4000 = kicks. Ask for an info? = kick. Take more than 10 seconds to enter instance= kick, log in game = kick).
The more casual players have always complained that in global “They ask for AA EXP and GEAR, i cannot join”, spending all their energy ever for complains everything, elitist, lag, GM, failcmon and never for really play the game.
Now, with RF, funcom created (wrong) an environment where newer or social players could easily earn AA, gear and EXP (if they really want).
in order to be able to get out of their impasse, technically they have every means to be able to go in T5 or T6, yes the T4 is enough and advances to face any content.
Did they learn? Did they evolve? Although they have the means, have they moved one step forward towards other goals?
No, they cummed in their trousers at the sight of their first, shiny T4 relic and were petrified and make mold and cobwebs in RF, 24/24 7/7.
They do nothing more than what they did before (blaming what they call Elite to be bad, dirty and stinking), but now they make it full T4 geared.
Raid finder should have never given T4 relics to begin with, all that did was make all T1-T4 raiding and almost all 6 man content instantly obsolete. Obviously it’s too late now to make a change, but reading about people feeling they aren’t getting enough T4 relics just pains me.
if I had been the funcom and I am not, but I am not, for better or for worse, I would have created some new gear, stat T2 with some small updates to make the gear more modern (critigation amount, but less than khitai, protection to the tank, but inferior to the khitai, heal rating to the healer, but less to khitai), redesign a skin? No need, skin T2 and the re-color (example, T2 of the barbarian, black leather and green skirt, problem solved); in this way the new players had a good and beautiful gear to start with (I know that the t2 is enough and advances, but it seems that many do not want to understand that stuff like critigation and heal rating are useful but not essential to start) and the veterans had some new skin vanity, all without making 90% of the game obsolete.
PS: among other things, I have always thought that it is an unintelligent move, in a game based on content, when it was decided not to release new content, to make 90% obsolete!
Ah, so it’s not me agreeing with you, it’s you agreeing with me.
If I understand you correctly, you don’t like people being rewarded for farming tokens AFK. And to fix this, you propose to make the AFK farming easier and more rewarding.
Oh, and I conceded nothing about RF mechanics. You’re thinking about someone else. The RF mechanics are dumbed down versions of the real one, and that obviously changes the tactics used. But different tactics doesn’t mean you can’t understand the mechanics themselves.
And again, I’m not backing your position, I’m taking the opposite stance. Removing the rewards of RF will remove the AFK farmers, leading to fewer RF of greater quality.
If you really want to progress, join a T4 raid. You can do one with half a T3 set, or half a Khitai set. It’s even easier now since it was dumbed down recently. Go do some 6-man dungeons with your guildmate.
As for me, playing with my friends is enough to make it fun. Gear is a nice thing to get, but I don’t really care about it.
As I still don’t quite get it, can someone explain to me. For what are these “new” people farming rf (t4) anyways?
NON of these players will ever even see t5-t6 bosses. And most of them probably wont even see “real” t4 raid… as the content they farm killed it :>
From what I see is they want to have ““Best”” gear in game t4, without lifting a finger… and without actually even using the gear on anything? So in the end they just want to over gear lower tier raids with their OP gear without having a clue about the raid / dungeon mechanics.
I guess these players have a motto “Playing to get gear, not for fun”
“Funcom changed something and it ruined the game. So, the best course of action is to club new players over the head with the AA grind, the gear grind, the guild grind (you know bouncing around trying to find one that can do the content already, because, most people aren’t willing to learn the mechanics and contribute toward the guild’s progression). Anyone, who is new should have to face the same grind older players have, meanwhile, being shut out of all of the content older players enjoy.”
Does that sum it up well enough? /rolleyes You might as well get out your canes and shake them at all of the newer players and tell them to get off your lawns. Feeling useless due to artificial ceilings is the worst kind of feeling for a gamer.
Many games have dealt with handling older content in such a way as to make it still relevant in some fashion or given players the ability to easily catch up. RF tries to do that. Even if you join the best guild on the server there is still a minimum time investment before getting a full set of Tier 1 or Tier 2, etc. Unless you are lucky enough to be carried through higher Tier content to take on the highest tier “newest” content, you can forget it. You have to play the game for a solid few years to be competitive.
Should there be newer content? Yes. Should there be harder dungeon content that is at the T4/T5/T6 level? Absolutely. Should RF give absolutely no rewards? Hell no. If it did it might as well be removed from the game because it would be completely empty. Is there a better solution? Possibly, but by demanding that newer players take several years to catch up to their friend who got them to play the game is not the way to go about it.
Instead of focusing on getting T4 gear, players should focus on learning raid/6-man tactics, raid/6-man discipline and raid/6-man synergies.
As it is right now, T4 and most Khitai dungeons can be cleared by players in T1 gear. T2 will open the hardest ones.
Fun fact: doing Khitai dungeons (Unchained or normal) gives you gear and AAs. Two birds, one stone, and it’s a good place to learn discipline too!