Signet of Cruel Delight needs re-balancing


#64

Well you edited your post after mine was done dude. T_T


#65

They do, last time I tried. None of them are more than like, 7% of damage done but still if you get a double crit it’s a solid 2*wp heal (iirc tested with Vital Shot’s passive and Smash, I may misremember)

CD double dipping on crit chance mostly means it sucks ■■■ for a lot longer than it should though. Like, I’m 2/3 of the way to maxed crit chance but get <half as much healing from CD as someone in full red.


#66

(For the sake of clarity, I’m going to avoid using terms like “double-dipping”, as it’s a frequently misunderstood/misused term, much like “exponential” scaling.)

What I meant by crit chance scaling Signet of Cruel Delight twice is, crit chance scales both the frequency of healing, as well as the magnitude of healing. This is an important point to take into account, because the balancing problem created by Cruel Delight is the large amount of healing per second it’s able to provide.

In comparison, Signet of Thirst doesn’t have this problem, because it has a recharge/cooldown, which limits its frequency of healing, and it also specifies a maximum amount of healing, which limits its magnitude of healing (i.e.: crits only cause you to reach the maximum faster). If Thirst didn’t specify a maximum amount of healing, then crit chance would also scale its healing-per-second twice.

Curiously, all luck signets—except Signet of Cruel Delight—follow the pattern of applying a 5-second buff effect with a 15-second recharge/cooldown, as if they were designed intentionally with this scaling problem in mind.


#67

The issue remains, if you nerf cruel delight, you do not make the game better. You have to do a full rebalance of signets, passive/active self healing, and truthfully, damage output at well, at the very least.

Thirst sucks, lets be honest. Its really, really bad because 5/15s is probably not even during the 5s you really want/need it, to say nothing of the cap and healing itself. That alone makes CD superior, because CD can happen any time, regardless of its strength.

The other luck signets are largely garbage as well, in contrast to the value of signets in most other slots, but if CD were overnerfed, and I felt like leveling a new luck, I’d probably not bother with thirst.

So without a multifaceted approach to balancing, you only make people mad and do not actually improve the game, because nerfing CD on its own does not make anything better. It must be a serious overhaul or it shouldn’t happen at all.


#69

Even if you’re right (which is a massive if) and they did intentionally design missile crisis to be an awful slog to most players but really easy for the few who know how to exploit mob ai and pathing, that is bad design - especially in a game that was relaunched to be less obtuse and unwelcoming to casual players. :v:


#70

Nono it’s not a “massife” if at all. I speedran this mission yesterday without killing any single mob from boss 1 to boss 2. Still have to figure out a way to make it consistent, but there are tricks to think about.

No that’s not a bad design, it’s a design where the mission rewards more players who think and are more skilled in terms of gameplay. You want an example of bad design? Scenarios. They take you 10 min with bad gear, and they take you the same 10 min if you overgear. And come on, it’s not “that” unwelcoming to other players, at worst those will have to spend more time on the mission and fight more mobs, big deal.


#72

Yes i did. Did this again this morning and lost my sprint at some point because i missed a jump, but i have Alacrity and Quickness so still managed to outrun.


#74

I’m not saying it can’t be done (depending on what yesterday’s patchnotes meant by “Mission can no longer get stuck by killing the Hi-Tech Rocket Specialist too early” it might be even easier now), I’m just saying it’s probably not the intended way of finishing the mission, given that it’s an action mission and not a sabotage mission.


#75

I’ve only started this game a few weeks ago, and this stupid signet is already making me want to quit again, because I love playing healers and I’m sick to death of hearing “No healers!” in every party I join because people just have a signet that does all the healing.

So, anyone claiming “You can’t nerf this because you’ll lose players”, well, you’ll also lose players if you don’t nerf it. There is no fun in playing an MMORPG that lets you be a healer and then lets people slot an item that makes you useless. I don’t get to just slot a signet that kills my enemies when I heal either.

Every other Luck signet also has a 15 second cooldown, so why doesn’t this one?


#80

I didn’t forbid him to speak dude, but you’re trying to forbid me though. I’m pointing out the parts that are BS in his post (because he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he just wants to rant about something), that’s it. If he chooses to get pissed of and starts posting rude stuff, then he’ll pay the consequences of it. If the thread gets closed, not a big deal either, the discussion about sustain tanking is offtopic here and the thread isn’t going anywhere anyway.


#82

You’re missing my point entirely. I do not care if you or anyone else sprints through the mission kiting all the mobs - in fact, I will probably do that myself, since it’s so boring to do it the proper way. So you can calm down and put your persecution complex back on the shelf, it’s not needed because I’m not trying to stop you enjoying yourself.

The fact remains that it is reasonable to assume that the intended method of completing an action mission, is to fight your way through. That is why it is an action mission and not a sabotage mission. This is clearly a convention of this game’s design: action = fight things, sabotage = avoid things. Given this, saying “this mission is tedious because it takes so long to fight your way through” is a perfectly valid opinion and there’s no need for you to get all weird and defensive about it. :v:


#86

They said they just started playing. Probably don’t yet know why everyone is telling them they don’t want healers, don’t know yet how deep the rot goes. The ‘how cute’ is unnecessary insult to a frustrated new player.


#88

We’re getting a lot of flags from this topic. Please keep the conversation civil, and do not abuse the flag system.


#90

I want a new player to understand that there is no arbitrary division between items such as “solo” or “group” items. The division is in purposes. Cruel Delight is a self healing signet. You can use it in a scenario, lair, mega boss, dungeon, wherever you want. It’s also disappointing that you point Laceration out as “the correct option for DPS” while ignoring that Saedism exists as a damage dealing option. Balance be damned I guess.

The issue with Cruel Delight is separate from the issue with Laceration, because they serve different purposes despite taking the same space. Even at the moment, using a Laceration signet instead of a Cruel Delight signet will make you deal more DPS. You can’t buff Laceration to match Cruel Delight. Someone who already wants to squeeze more damage in, already uses Laceration (they really do). Cruel Delight is literally useless in the majority of dungeon fights and only incidentally useful in some. There are very few fights where the signet does actual work, one example being the damaging shields in Hell Eternal. Everywhere else it’s just safety wheels.

If they buff Laceration, good, but it’s not going to change anything you want it to change. Not like it’s plug and play; you actually need to buy all those signets, level them, fuse them, level them, fuse them, level them, fuse them. I’m not sure the playerbase loves doing that.


#92

Yes this is spot on. For solo purpose, thirst was used quite a bit in TSW. The current use of Cruel Delight in SWL is more coming from the peculiar gearing system and the fact that overall it is more effcient to carry a cruel delight accross the board. I am looking at scenarios and lairs …


#93

I never even considered the S-adism (Why is this censored? ffs get a grip funcom) and in my time here in SWL actually have seen maybe one or two drop and have never searched for them, i couldn’t tell you what they do so will be why i never even thought about them or their use.
I’m glad you say DPS do use Lacerations and i’m glad they do actually contribute to valid DPS coz right now a DPS in group content using a non dps signet is just - i have no vords, lol. And the current offered advice to DPS when they ask in chat is to use a cruel delight signet on the one set of gear that you use for everything. Which to me is mind boggling that people are suggesting that cookie cutter AA is the way forward. It really shouldn’t be.

While there may be no division there are clear uses for them.
While my content comes from dungeons and scenarios it is the basis of where i come to the conclusion i posted.
Anything else i have never considered. Cruel delight as dps on a Kenny? Yeah, never even thought of that one. I can see its use in lairs tho.

However - lacerations could do with buff.


#95

That was my point. You’re completely ignoring a different signet just because it’s underpowered. You’re only asking for a buff to Laceration, because that’s the “correct DPS signet” in your mind. You are doing to Saedism what you claim others are doing to Laceration.

This I will never understand, sorry. There is no rule that says you have to use 100% damage dealing oriented items when doing group content. You’ll be speechless a lot if you group more; there are like DPS players using utility gadgets and stuff.

Also, I already addressed the bit about gear leveling. The gear grind in this game is terrible. In order to have two different signets for two different situations, you also need two glyphs and two talismans. If you want to min-max and get multiples for every slot, go ahead. Don’t expect others to follow suit. And please blame the game for having a garbage progression system rather than the players who want to minimise their involvement in it.

Compared to what? There is only one other damage increasing luck signet and it’s worse than Laceration. You’re trying to create an equivalence between Cruel Delight and Laceration that isn’t possible. If anything, Cruel Delight needs a nerf to bring it in line with Thirst.

I don’t understand what you expect. If you want to maximise DPS, you already have to use Laceration. A lot of players already do and buffing the signet isn’t suddenly going to make everyone else start leveling Laceration signets.


#96

I’m not ignoring it - i’m saying i am not aware and still am not aware of what this signet does because i have never come across one nor looked for one because it’s never been mentioned as a good one. you are making it sound like it’s deliberate, when from my personal experience - it’s never even talked about as an option. Only cruel delight is. I perhaps have seen one many moons ago and thought it a bit lack lustre perhaps, or not what i personally wanted for my toon at the time. (i see now why we have to add the E into Saedism now lol) Then if that is the case i would ask for a buff to this signet also. Because i’m not asking for anything to be buffed exclusively just this was the one i used as an example as it were.

Your next point incorporates gadgets into the mix - i did not discuss this and i am aware that people carry utility gadgets such as purges, impairs etc. You are making assumptions from nothing i said. Read the bit you actually quoted - i did not discuss gadgets, only the signets used and offered as valid options to people in chat are cruel delight. Nothing else. It’s no wonder you didn’t understand it then. But i did actually praise you for validating the fact that as you put it

“Someone who already wants to squeeze more damage in, already uses Laceration (they really do).”

I know about the gear grind - i am levelling 3 sets of gear and multiple weapons across 8 toons.

The rest of your comments are a non issue on my end. At least not in the way you have responded to them via perceptions.


#97

Keep in mind that the fact S.dism is underpowered might simply be by design (providing a default cheaper signet option for people who cannot invest too much into the “best of the best”), so i won’t start asking for a buff of this signet too fast (even though i won’t mind either).

All the existing options do not necessarily need to be all competitive an equal to each other.

I agree to the rest of your arguments.

Edit: actually i don’t even think S.dism needs any modifications. Compared Laceration’s output to S.dism for one of the builds in my simulator, found out Laceration gives around 480 DPS with maxed out gear while S.dism’s output is around 420 DPS (if we consider the spreadsheet’s CP value for maxed out S.dism trustworthy, equal to 0.14 CP).


#98

That’s fair. Though I have to point out that the cheapness of the signet is player dictated. Laceration prices were through the roof because of their perceived value, not because there was an educated consensus regarding its effectiveness. Even if they buffed Sadism significantly, the signet would still look less attractive than Laceration due to the way it’s presented.

As for the Sadism output, I actually had no idea it was that close. Honestly I only did napkin math but I may be missing something so I would like to run this by you.

I took 0.1404 CP * 5 / 15 as best case (realistically a bit lower due to 50% crit), which is 0.0468 CP per second base. Then multiplied that with (0.425 * 2.4 + 0.575) to factor in the procs critting which gives 0.074646 CP per second disregarding buffs like Expose or OS. Even with something like 2000 Combat Power, that’s 150 DPS.

There’s a good chance I’m missing something so I’d appreciate the input.