Voting. Decision on Vathis. Your opinion is important, thanks


What I find amusing about this argument that Vathis was just as easy to knock out and no one knew it was bugged, is that I haven’t seen anyone with hundreds of Daicus. Or hundreds of Spinas. Or hundreds of Berserkers. Or hundreds of Dalinsia

Strange, how everyone farmed out hundreds of Vathis because they just all happened to like the way he looked?


I have several boxes of Berserkers, Dalinsia, Captains, Freyas and others that were obtained before I knew you could equip a thrall with a truncheon. I’d have boxes of Daicus and Spinas too if they spawned more.


Ancient spirits of evil, answer me this question through your Ever-Living @Mumra: does he possess any Nordheimer Berserkers?

Huge Thundercats fan.


Nordheimer Berserkers? Wouldn’t you like to know?
Suffice to say that I have lived here for a thousand years.
It is my lack of Nordheimer Berserkers that has disturbed my rest!
But I have time.

A thousand years more, five thousand!
You cannot defeat me for I AM MUMM-RA!
And wherever Nordheimer Berserkers are alledged to exist,
Mumm-Ra lives!
Mumm-Ra lives!!
Mumm-Ra lives!!!


I have. Or if not hundreds, then comparable numbers to how many Vathis they had. Not everyone went into the hundreds, or even fifty like you. Personally I had some 10ish pieces. I have more Berserkers (or Sep Captain) than I ever had Vathis though.

But sure, Vathis had a fixed spawnpoint, and if you had a decent spot in the Volcano you could have a base not too far from where he spawned. Like I said earlier, there’s an easy way and a hard way for MANY things in this game, that doesn’t necessarily make the easy way an exploit. Finally, most of the fighters did not have 100% spawns, but crafters all over did - and in some cases do. Obviously those who wanted some fighters would go for Vathis.

And again, for the slow-witted, I am obviously aware NOW that Vathis is a story NPC, my argument that to a lot of people, it really wasn’t clear at the time that he was any more broken than any other NPC.


Is ignorance of the law a valid excuse for breaking it? That may be an extreme comparison, but it applies. Simply because people were unaware it was unintended, does not validate their gains. Is it frustrating? For some, definitely. Does that justify keeping an exploit in game when FC has the ability to patch it out? No.


It is not a valid comparison, actually, and I’m fairly sure you know it (or ought to). But to stay with you for a second, intent tends to matter A LOT when it comes to matters of law, or the punishment thereof.

Of course not, but the “exploit” as you insist on calling it was patched out last year (!). You’ll find that I agree with you with regards to fixing exploits, sooner is better than later, but later is better than never.

Am I understanding this right though? You full well knew it was an exploit at the time (your words) and took advantage of it, whereas some were (due to the state of the game at the time) ignorant of this fact?


When I’m Rome. On a PvP server that was active at the time I wasn’t about to fall by the wayside and get steamrolled while others had their own Vathis armies on guard.

I and most others here were fully aware it was a bug / exploit, apparently less people expected it to be fixed. I always assumed the fix would come sooner rather than later, I’m just happy it came at all.


Acquiescence, as Barnes so eloquently puts it.

1 Like

Actually I have almost 100 Dalinisia Snowhunters. Not many people realized she was almost a 100% spawn at stargazers where I have a base, and they would look for her in the mounds. I had a berzerker with a truncheon out front and we would just run over and grab her when I was at that base. Two patches ago they changed that and now I havent seen her or any T4 spawn at stargazers since.


Well, Dalinsia nuke incoming then eh?

No, probably, hopefully not - but that’s exactly my point. This approach undermines confidence in the game.


I’m gonna have to say that might be a little over simplified since laws are published with precedents and judges rulings etc. Slightly more nuanced than ToS from FC. Also, once again communication is the difference. Their policy of not discussing exploits seems counterintuitive when compared to judicial systems. Crimes are not exposed to the light and punishment is not advertised. I understand the reasoning behind that policy, their world/their laws. Minimize the damage and correct as quickly as possibly. The intentions are good, and other than emotional distress and monetary damages of $50 US for some customers, no real damage done. Cheaters know that no damage will be done to them either, so best not to spread the virus when a coding mistake is discovered.

1 Like

I don’t view this in terms of crimes or criminals. I see it as the ongoing evolution and maintenance of an online persistent world. I have never played in one that didn’t require nerfs as well as buffs, so the removal of Vathis doesn’t surprise me.

While I have no judgment, moral or otherwise, of anyone who farmed him in his bugged state, in my opinion he was far too great a reward for far too little risk, which is an imbalance in my opinion. The developers are right to take action, and while there are many possible resolutions, at the end of the day the decision is theirs. From my point of view, FC has done right by its playerbase on the whole, and in regards to this issue as well. It’s just an opinion, and there can be no wrong or right opinions when it comes to a player’s view of a game.

From my perspective it’s no different from the steel that has recently flooded the servers via the dismantling bench. There’s no reason to punish players for taking advantage of these glitches where the developer fails to take action for an extended period of time, but anyone who does should not be surprised if the resulting imbalance is corrected at some point.


Mikey Ive been thru 3 total server wipes on officials, numerous glitches, changes, rollbacks, etc. I have never lost confidence in the game or the vision of the developers. I honestly feel peoples pain over losing things in-game, and sometimes wonder why the Devs do things that seem arbitrary, but just watching this game unfold like a flower in the desert since EA1 has been an amazing journey for me.


Just captured a bunch of Relic Hunter Treasure Seekers (that’s a mouthful) with 7450 HP.

3 of them next to each other, 100% spawn chance at the UC. (many other groups of 3 around there as well)

I can’t help but wonder if they were meant to be that easy or not.
Maybe they were meant to be replacements for the Vathis’s lost?

Whatever the case, a friend of mine gave me a Captain from Shepmuru, which are apparantly not available anymore. They have the same HP as Vathis and that made me feel a bit better. Was a female one as well.


Vathis was changed so often and was a story NPC as early as I can remember (while still being able to get caught), it was deceptively clear to me that they were never supposed to be in the possession of players. Same with all the skull tagged people like UC mini-bosses, Sunken City bosses etc. Yes they should not have been able to be caught in the first place. But how can you expect to thrall a boss (or talking NPC for that matter) and not find him to get removed later? I mean, especially the overpowered ones like Ness of Shem or early Vathis were so far ahead of any other thrall, surely it must have dawned on many people this can’t be balanced. If something is so much better than anything else, it is bound to get removed or severely weakened.

Not gonna dive in any of the other tangents presented, apart from the last.

The Relic Hunter Treasure Seekers had 6750 HP as Thralls and 750 HP as enemies before the update. Daicas and Spinas used to have 7425 HP, just like the Sepermeru Captain.

Now 5 things happened:

  • The RHTS went up to 7425 HP and 825 HP as enemies (
  • The complete named Volcano squad went from 7425 to 6750 HP, including the new additions Erii the Ravager and Kisthis Fleshtearer, despite the fact that HP wise, T1-T3 are identical with Relic Hunters
  • The Captain went away for now
  • and they added 3 potential bandit leader spawns in Sepermeru - with 7425 HP (
  • new Emissaries were added and soon too be deleted as thralls, amongst other things like Sunken City Bosses

Interesting tidbit on the side. The Relic Hunter Slavetakers (you know, these guys: are always handled like Tier 3, no matter their shown rank as Fighters.

So knowing all this and knowing most of the NPCs I am talking about are
a) pretty new
b) recently reworked
c) have their numbers twisted around a bunch

One can assume they have not taken the time to properly balance any of the Relic Hunter subfactions, but might have screwed around numbers involuntarily, leading to stronger (multiple) 100% spawns in a Tier2 zone vs one of the late endgame zones with lower % chance. It’s very likely this gets changed again in the future, appropriately scaling them all back to where they should be. This means:

RHST likely get weaker Rank 1s and 2s in the long run.
RHTS likely get back to 6750 HP.
Volcano T4 Fighters get back to 7425 HP.
Bandit Leader spawnrates might go down


Captains might be reimplemented, put into purges or deleted in a few months.


I’d say its more like seeing a guy toss a $20 bill on the same exact place on a sidewalk every day, and then go to his car and drive off. Then having him say he didn’t intend to give that money away and have everyone who picked it up get arrested after getting his money back.

Ok maybe my example isn’t 100% accurate either.


I don’t even know who Vathis is… so I wont skew your poll for voting either way.
(Ive played since before launch… single-player - maybe I have seen him and haven’t paid much attention)

But about the balance issue… I agree, it can be overdone - you can never truly balance anything.
And it can actually, if taken too far, make something more unbalanced in feel - like, what you seem to be suggesting… especially for role-playing.

Take armor that is from the desert with cold buffs so you don’t freeze in the north, and vice-versa.
It was specifically said in one of their videos, while it doesn’t make sense, they have to keep balance.

As a single-player role-player… I say throw balance out the door… if I only have access to one cold weather outfit, I don’t like it, my problem if I freeze to death… don’t use it, or wait for DLC with some more options. :slight_smile:

Speaking of which, the fur armour - wow, its practically… naked compared to some of the others.
(Not ugly looking, but definitely not… overly warm looking) lol

so, yeah, I feel you - if something is giving a weird advantage on multiplayer… maybe adjust the settings, but it sounds like its just being gutted?

Not too dissimilar to the feeding system of thralls and pets - instead of taking it away… on/off switch would have been fine, no?

Good luck to you guys! :slight_smile:


I’m not sure where you got your information that she was removed, but it’s incorrect. I just finished verifying it through the dev kit.

Relic Hunter Armorers have at least 1 dedicated spawn point, and around a dozen or more shared spawn point locations all over Sepemeru. Armorers probably could use a boost to the 2-3 dedicated spawns they used to have (and they might still have, found some weird stuff in my search that will be part of my report), but as far as full removal? Nope, still there and accessible.


Its been a week. I have killed every man and woman in there relentlessly. Zoara does not spawn at all. Yes she might exist in the Devkit but after a week no Zoara. And the server population can’t find her either.

I have even set a prize package together for people who stumble on her which is a more than handsome reward.

Just because something exisists in the Dev Kit does not mean it spawns.