Where does the line between exploit and working as intended go?

Right, so as the title says “where does the line between exploit and working as intended go?”.

It seems like people are quick to jump in and link to the forum rules despite there not being any violation and they are quick to defend Funcom, which I think is nonsense. This is not an attack against Funcom, but more of a simple question of defining what is and is not an abuse of the building system.

Funcom did take action on 1130 against an undermesher clan. Flying, teleporting, ghosting hackers are common on 1110 and we are fighting a war against them as of this moment. I have a video of proof of their undermeshing where I strike the wall with right click to see through it.

We have this quote from Ignasis on building:

1- Even though freedom of expression through building is encouraged via the sandbox and building system of the game, deliberate use and abuse of known exploits to not only negatively impact the rest of the players in the server, but the server itself, is not something we can let go.

2- In your case in particular, we found you abused this exploit in large numbers, very close together, in baffling ways. Impact on the server was miserable.

3- On top of that, your clan deliberately found amusing to build all over the map in a structure that would go from the starter river up to the volcano. A single structure to basically control and gate access to many of the map locations, spawns and resources.

4- Combine 1, 2 and 3 and we definitely had a problem there

On server 1130 we have a massive citadel on top of Rhinohorn Ridge. The community managers know about this, because I submitted pictures and videos off of it. The structure is so massive it negatively impacts the server performance, yet it still stands, so this must be a clear case of working as intended.

There’s a spot in the jungle where you can build inside a tree’s mesh, but you climb in there through legit means. You just climb up, basically and literally. :stuck_out_tongue:

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This isn’t a MMORPG. So there’s no one standard.

What is considered legit play or an exploit on official, maybe different on a non-official, which may be different to another server too.

I’ve seen servers ban entire weapon types. I’ve seen servers allow for undermeshing if doing so helps the build aesthetically.

The standard is whatever the Owner of the server dictates. For Officials, that’s Funcom. If they aren’t taking action on something, then its probably allowed. So if its not dropping player counts, they probably don’t see it as an issue. Can you blame them? Being killed by a combat build while gathering is no an exploit. As people don’t leave the game in droves over it. Why should a structure on a server if people continue to play there be any different?

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Without any detailed description and discussion about this, I reserve some serious doubts. Contrary to the popular belief, just building big is rarely enough to negatively impact the server performance in a serious way. Not to mention that too many players don’t know how to distinguish server performance from client performance, nor do they care to do so.

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There’s still an urban legend going around saying foundations cause more lag stacked than using walls and pillars. Even when presented with evidence from the devkit that the only difference between foundations, pillars, and fence foundations is their connection points, models, and textures.

My favorite is when someone sees a server FPS drop from 60 to 50 and they think there’s a problem. Its like come on… the game is fine till it dips below 15. Heck there was a time for the longest time that 30 was the cap. Or better yet they mistake server FPS for GPU FPS.

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Pillars and foundations grant stability, and would logically act as starting points in the server’s traversal of a connected structure to map its stability. Not sure how that’s hard to understand?

you guys forget that its not only building pieces but also placeables and light sources

So are you in the camp that a foundation causes more issues to a server than 4 walls, a pillar and a ceiling tile? That’s what those servers say to use instead of stacking another foundation like for leveling off an area to build upon.

I don’t think you’re in that camp. I really don’t.

This is why I keep saying people don’t know how to properly distinguish between server performance and client performance. Light sources are rendered on the client, not on the server.

Read again what Tamien wrote (added emphasis mine):

The only reason for a foundation or a pillar to be used as a starting node in stability graph traversal is when it’s placed on the ground. Stacked foundations should not be used as starting nodes in the graph.

One hundred percent in agreement @Taemien.

Official is simple. If it works, it is allowed. If it’s a bug, report it, and when it’s fixed, the exploits fall away.
Private equally simple. The Admin(s) rule. If there are exploits, patches fix if Admins don’t. If admins are ineffective or show blatant favouritism, adapt or move to another server.

Vote with your feet. If you do not like a server, move on. If that is not a viable solution, rent a server and become an admin and get other players to join. I chose that route and never looked back.

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Right. So what are you trying to say? That the players you are referring to don’t have a background in say data science, computer science or are educated in server architecture and networking? :roll_eyes: Or whatever the field is. The point of this is not to flawlessly list every required knowledge field to form an informed opinion.

A forum is a place to exchange knowledge. People leave posts with their opinion and comments. To think everyone has perfect knowledge is uninformed or ignorant.

When he logs in the server sometimes restarts. I bet I will be criticized for being imprecise. We would ask if he logged in and more often than not, we would get a yes I just logged in, why?

When my clanmate logged in, in the ruins of a wiped clan, the server had a massive lag spike. The chat worked, but everything else was lagging.

Server 1130 was prone to have lag spikes, subject your character to rubberbanding, instantly cook your food, bars and even thralls!

As of now the thralls in server 1110 are behaving weird. They run off in random directions. Stare into walls. Likely because the walls have NPCs inside of them. I have seen several NPCs fall right through the ground.

The problem was thought to result from simultaneously refreshing an entire base. Remember that fences are stacked up to 50 times taking up the entire interior of map buildings.

this happens to us when the lag spikes, and i think it has to do with problems found maybe in the hardware, its well known that official server are hosted in virtual machines, and i believe what you rent with gportal for instance is a virtual machine from which the server is run, (so in theory there can be several official servers in one physical computer, or several private servers in one physical computer) many things can happen to one and will affect others, it could be due to purges not well optimized, (it happens to us during purge , when it happens, its almost guarantee that someone could be in the middle of purge --speculation of my end—

Yup that was the conclusion we had on our server - every time someone walked by one of the large bases with stacked fence foundations, there was a chance the server would re-evaluate the stability of the structures there and it was cause issues for everyone connected.

I’m trying to say exactly what I said: that I have my doubts about how the citadel you mention impacts the performance of the server you mention, because just saying it’s “so massive it negatively impacts the server performance” is not enough.

I don’t know whose point it’s supposed to be. It certainly wasn’t mine. But it’s certainly possible for my opinion to be less informed than someone else’s because I don’t know some of that stuff. And even if I do, it’ll be less informed than the opinion of someone on Funcom’s team, who actually works on their code.

And now you dedicated two whole paragraphs to the idea I didn’t express, just because I pointed out that merely saying a structure is massive isn’t enough to know about its effect on server performance. Hopefully, we can now put that to rest and exchange some knowledge about the build you’re complaining about.

As far as I know, this particular behavior has never been associated with lag and server performance. I’ve had it happen to me many times on perfectly normal servers. I’m not sure they ever caught and solved that bug.

That sounds like it might be problematic. Just to check we’re talking about the same thing: you’re talking about stacking fence foundations in depth, not vertically?

If that’s the case, and all of them are sunk into the ground, coupled with the size of the build it might be why the server gets lag spikes and even crashes. Of course, I’m also speculating. Funcom would know better, but they don’t communicate a lot about reports.

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Let’s put this to rest… let’s see a screenshot of this supposed server destroying building.

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Amazing. So you don’t have a relevant background and then you go on about my dedicating two paragraphs accusing me of setting up a strawman.

Enough, please.

Taemien. I will post a picture of it, but the point of my post wasn’t really this one building. Why you think that baffles me. The point of this thread was to define for me what exploiting is and what is working as intended.

Ignasis has already seen the buildings. Note that I say buildings, because that was the issue that I presented to him then.

Where did I say I don’t have a relevant background? All I’ve said is that I don’t know as much as Funcom. If you really need to know about my background, it’s 20+ years in software development, 2 of which were spent in a game development studio. Does that sound like relevant enough to you? Or do you wish to keep being offended at the suggestion that you might want to share some relevant info so people can reason about it?

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Because I could probably show you a building that is much bigger and it does nothing to server performance.

I’ve designed MMORPG-styled dungeons for the server I play on, complete with NPC Spawners and Loot Spawners, These structures take tens of thousands of building pieces, and they do nothing to server performance (which I do watch in real time while building and as players interact).

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

If you don’t want us posting in threads, don’t post threads. Its a public forum. Try using PMs to intended parties if you want it private.

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You are both off-topic :blush: