It’s not about the “rules of the debate”, it’s about being civil and having a discussion. That shouldn’t be such a high bar to clear, and yet…
No, but that’s the beauty of a system where you need several people to flag a post and even then it can be restored by a mod.
So if you see many of your posts being tragically misunderstood by multiple people, then who knows, maybe the problem lies in how you write them.
For someone who claims they are not here to “dance around the language”, you’re really good at playing games with words. For example, you’ll use a word in one context to imply one meaning, and then when someone takes the bait, you suddenly point out how that’s not the meaning of the word.
You would do really well in a debate club, you know.
Okay, so?
You just keep on pretending that you don’t understand what community moderation means, and see how well it works out for you
And if it doesn’t work out well, you can always express surprise and claim that community moderation is broken, right?
Again, that’s your problem. The community guidelines are accessible to everyone. You can insist that they don’t apply to you, but in the end your posts end up being removed.
See if you can spot anything in the guidelines that applies to that
It was difficult to restrain myself from commenting but I felt like if I added my two cents to the devolving conversation, I might end up with an unwanted flag. I chose restraint as a form of self moderation instead, one might even say self restraint is my “responsibility” (or job), since I didn’t have anything polite or productive to add.
I digress, the reason I changed my mind about posting in this thread is because I wanted to give props to @CodeMage & @Cattibria for keeping their cool while trying to explain some forum features that may seem basic to most of us, but still seem to be misunderstood by many. Thank you both for the educational thread, which will hopefully be bookmarked and regularly referenced by those who continue to struggle with their own social responsibilities on these forums.
Allow me to “leave” my opinions, or to be more exact,
To show you how i see things in here. If i am mistaken i will accept corrections from the admins here (only if they have the time and wish to do so)!
I am a player, i have no experience of social media, computing other from my job (word, excel, acad, 4m) and even this computing i learn is purely epidermal, just as much i need to know how to do my job.
I am a technician, a handy man, my father was a plumber so it was easy for me to learn this job and choose to leave it and work as construction manager in a small company that revives old monumental houses in my chain of islands (Dodecanese) , example…
I only explained you what i do for living because i want you to understand why(?) i cannot understand the rant against this forum moderation.
Yes, i agree with @MENISTHETURK, Hugo was a bit strict to his replies on the new members, but he had a boss to tell him what to do, as we all do. Back then however the game was so popular and new members and new accounts were popping in here like mushrooms.
No matter how capable the forum admins are, there are thousands capable computer users out there that’s equally good and maybe better in some cases, breaking the forum rules very often. Speaking of Hugo “When” he realized that i am who i am and not a threat for the Forum “users”, because these people are here to protect both company and users, he show me his really kind side, helping me and guiding me all the time! So “this ruthless” admin was finally A FRIEND! I REALLY MISS YOU HUGO, no matter where you are i wish you the best my friend!
In lots and lots of cases Andy entered like Superman in here to protect his members from mindless rants, people who had no other reason to come in here and shake the waters the way they know best. Just enough to bully members and create unpleasant feelings in here.
Or those Angels of this forum, Mayra and Dana, what can i say for these forum angels, always kind and helpful, always from the very beginning. Melcom, always to the point, a guiding beacon, a thousand, million, thanks to you too for all these years.
Let’s stop this praise just before i will be accused for “bootlick” from people who cannot see, simply because they don’t want to see, the thinks as they are, but not before to speak for the monumental “VOLUNTEER ADMIN” in here. A person who love this game as much as we do. A person who play this game as much as we do. He is a fan of this game that became an admin. People who assigned him to do so knows something better, something more than we do, don’t you think? He helps, he understands, he tries, he replies the most.
WHERE’S our gratitude for it?
Blaming him for personalize?
Really?
People, for God’s sake, mind your self, these people are ONLY to help and protect in here, yes this sounds as a police moto, but don’t take it this way, take it as it is without parallel thoughts to titles that they do not deserve! Because if you give them the chance, if you listen to them and understand them, then you will realize that they are your best friends in here and whenever you need them they will use their power to protect you! Just give them the chance and you’ll see what i see all these years. I love you all, i thank you all.
Sincerely yours Litsios Stylianos
Ps. Stylianos is how i got baptized, but my common is Stelios!
You ever get tired of being wrong? You are far more often then you are whiling to admit.
What I have proven is someone thinks it’s their job to run around here and flag every post that doesn’t meet their standard.
The problem isn’t TOS violations, the forum is rife with them. The problem is most here wont flag some one unless they take offense. People don’t flag posts for TOS violations they flag them because they take personal offense, PERIOD. Now why did my post here get flagged? Because some one took offense at my sardonic statement and proved it right.
Now you read down through this thread, if I was a real Richard I could flag half the posts in this thread.
Why don’t I? Because I can do this thing called discerning.
Is the post off topic out of the blue, or is it a tangent?
Is some one expressing a sardonic wit or are they being aggressively insulting?
Is some one jokingly chiding some one or are they openly attacking them?
Some people might think the TOS is written in stone, but since it’s up to the community to flag posts it far less black and white. It’s up to the person discerning an offense of the TOS.
CodeMage, I’d be whiling to bet you have flagged more post this week then I have since I’ve been here. Is it because I’m a nice guy? Or I’m not doing my job? No, it’s because I have a more forgiving definition of the TOS and don’t feel it’s my job to enforce it.
How did you not know this was going to go this way? The OP assumes the majority of the people on this forum are ignorant of the TOS. I held off posting to this to see if it was going to go the way I expected; I wasn’t going to push it that way. I only posted once it was clear that was how this was going to go.
The problem isn’t the TOS, or the forum mods. The problem is thin skinned people that can’t take a joke, and take offense at the slightest chide or rib, and people that seem to think it’s their job to enforce THEIR definition of the TOS.
It’s not my JOB to enforce the TOS, but if I flag you, you have went above and beyond. Because that is what it takes for me to take offense.
Stand, down, don’t personalize!
If you wish to say something like this to Code just send him a private message and get your guts out of it. In these frames we must not personalize and unleash personal attacks to other members. If Code won’t flag you others will and then you’ll assume that it was Code the one who flagged you and continue blaming him for something he didn’t done.
You are a really good member, i really enjoy your jokes, especially the one that you did on Andys thread, maybe i was laughing 3 minutes straight!
I, like you, don’t use the flags but for reasons that’s obvious, i know nothing of forum moderation so when i don’t know i simply don’t touch!
I may have used them twice in the past, but i have over a year to use them. This however doesn’t make me better than the ones who uses them. And yes, sometimes some flags are difficult for me to understand either so i protest too.
However blaming others and especially the moderators who can have all the power they need and all the choices they need, is absurd.
I do agree, i don’t like all the flags and some are for my eyes “unfair”, but it’s my lack of knowledge that makes them unfair. Still i never got deleted, or flagged when i protest for some flags, why “this” should not be enough for me? Why do i have to “push it” more?
Deacon, sometimes all you need is to lay an opinion, push it and loose it and with this loose your right to have one.
But knowing this and blame others?
I beg you, see no offense, player to player, member to member! I need your presence in here, i need your jokes, they give me joy! Please be a friend!
Now this is the thing. I saw that and edited it out well with in the time frame of it not counting as an edit. The edits are me doing multiple read throughs and not liking sentence structure. I left in a question specifically to codemage because it was a response to his post. Now since you pointed out it could be misunderstood let me clarify. I know codemage reads far more threads then I do. He is a lot more by the book then I am, so it’s no stretch of logic that he has reported/flagged far more posts then I have. If some one infers it’s a personal attack I certainly didn’t intend for it to be one. I was just stating something I assumed was a fact.
Now here is a suggestion for the forum mods. Add an unflag to flagged posts. If it’s community moderation lets see if the community thinks a flagged post as a TOS violation.
Let me give you another one! Find the opportunity (let’s say abomination thread) and make a joke to them and check their reaction! We need to understand that they are working in here, they cannot be who they want to be, they have to be who they have to be. But in times they “steal” the chance, risking “a lot” to be who they want to be. Deacon, i am with you man, i am 47 yo father of two, i don’t speak b…hit anymore, when i like i like and when i don’t i don’t. The reason i insist on you is because you deserve it, no sweet words here, truth only.
So having flags “both ways”? You’re welcome to post on reddit instead
If you’re just referring to the ability to unflag your own post, because you made edits to it… you haven’t been paying much attention as it’s been already described to you that this happens automatically…
The moment you edit a flagged and hidden post, the flag is instantly removed… so you can do that all by yourself… go ahead and edit your flagged post above and try it.
As for all your posts with similar sentiments as the above quotes…
To me it seems like you’re the one who’s trying to force their definition of “what should and shouldn’t be” or how sensitive people should or shouldn’t be on everyone else…
Gives that good ol’ “boys will be boys” vibe That it’s not your issue for being rude or posting nonsense… it’s everybody elses problem that they take offense at it…
I’m well aware of this and believe it insulting you think I’m that ignorant. I find your post offensive.
Oh I can assure you it isn’t everyone else. I’d bet it is the same 3 people the majority of the time.
Once again my point; since it some how seems opaque, is the forum moderation is up to the communities discretion. This entire thread is proof of that. There are multple TOS violating posts in it yet, because of the communities discretion how many have been flagged/hidden, and why?
It’s not about the TOS, or the moderators that have to deal with the black and whiteness of it once a post is flagged. It’s all about personal offense. It’s not about whether a post is or isn’t a TOS violation, it’s all about if I find it one.
Ask any moderator here how often I change a hidden post. If I don’t see the violation, I’m not changing it. And it’s not about just me, I’m pretty tolerant and forgiving of everyone, and have said as much. I also don’t take a flagged post personally. I may make a sardonic retort but I have never raged about a hidden post. Certainly LMFAO about a few
The one thing that I would wish to see changed about the whole flagging system is a line that appears in your comment that got flagged that states:
Who flagged it and
Why it was flagged.
If you are against this idea then you are reinforcing the idea that people abuse the flagging system because they dont like the person they are flagging, or dont like what they said. If its truly a TOS violation and must be reported…why would anyone be so scared to put their name down? Serious question.
100%. I said roughly the same thing in the thread years ago about wanting people banned in game for things said in chat. Literally could click a mute button if someone is offensive or annoying, but somehow, that just wasnt good enough.
This is proof of how peoples interpretations of the TOS can be different, and can potentially be wrong…and lead to false flagging of posts. If one person can be wrong, so can two, or three. In the end, no big deal, a few days later a Forum moderator looks at the post and removes the flag. All the more reason in my mind of showing who is flagging - if a person is repeatedly flagging and is in the wrong…its a clear cut case of abusing the system.
I also have another example of…not sure exactly what to call it, maybe bias maybe? A group of people who have no problem flagging people for a type of post, yet never get their own posts that say the exact thing word for word flagged. I wont use names, but ill use the line that got my post flagged and not the other forum user. They first made the comment (likely several months ago if not years by now) that a persons post was “nothing but a tinfoil hat conspiracy”. Fast forward and that same person who made the previous claim makes a claim that anyone knows cant be proven let alone true. I reply with “Thats nothing but a tinfoil hat conspiracy” and within a couple hours its flagged.
Odd that two people with two different opinions saying the same thing, one gets flagged, another doesnt. That alone is enough evidence for me know there is a group of like minded people in the forums who will never flag each other for saying something, but will flag others for saying it. Hey, I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it on this one.
Show names of those who flag, and it solves alot of problems. After all, if youre correct in the reason for flagging why hide anonymously?
What you have proven is that you think it’s okay to post things like “try rubbing some brine on that booboo”, which is a taunt that doesn’t add anything to the conversation, which is against the community guidelines.
What you have also proven is that you still believe your post can be hidden in “ONE flag”, despite ample evidence to the contrary.
In other words, the rules don’t or shouldn’t apply to you, and facts don’t matter.
Sure, you could. In fact, you probably should. That would put to test your claims of systematic abuse and of how the moderators don’t get involved.
Which way did it go? Three people who find themselves flagged often came here to claim how the system is being broken and rife with abuse. Out of how many users, exactly?
Yeah, of course it was going to go this way. What makes you think I didn’t expect that?
But we’ve already established that the mods can and do unflag posts, and they also can and do deal with flag abuse. So, you’re either disputing those claims – which means you think mods are the problem – or you’re saying that the mods agree with these thin-skinned flaggers – which means you think either mods are the problem (not enforcing the community guidelines correctly) or the community guidelines themselves are a problem.
It’s not about “taking offense”, although I get how it’s popular to make that the scapegoat topic these days. It’s about believing that the post doesn’t belong, for one of the reasons available for flagging.
Why not? That’s what they have on HN, and it works. Users can “vouch” for a flagged post and that can counteract the flags. Doesn’t happen that often, but I’ve seen it happen. In fact, I’ve used it, too.
Of course, you might have a hard time getting Funcom to implement that, because they have better things to do, but since Discourse is open source, maybe you can send them a pull request with the necessary changes.
Pretty much this. The popularity of the idea that “people are too thin-skinned these days” stems from the appeal of being absolved from personal responsibility for your own words.
And when that attitude meets the FAFO attitude, it’s much easier to cry abuse and censorship than to think that maybe you’re not fitting in with what’s expected from you.
Yep. So, for this alleged “systematic abuse” to happen, you have to have a pattern of same people being wrong in their interpretation of the community guidelines, and mods letting that happen over and over without correcting it in any way. Which means you have mods who intentionally tolerate people being wrong about the community guidelines.
As opposed to flaggers being right about their interpretation of the community guidelines.
Ah, but what does “right” mean? That’s the problem right there, isn’t it? It’s pretty clear that @DeaconElie considers my interpretation of the guidelines to be “wrong”, because they disagree with it. Does that make it wrong? What makes it right or wrong?
The answer is simple, but none of you who complain of abuse will like it: if the mods agree with it, then it’s right. Their duties are to make sure that Funcom’s rules for these forums are enforced, regardless of who agrees and who disagrees with those rules.
This will never happen It is literally against every idea of “internet safety” and would be the equivalent of Funcom sticking their whole hand in a beehive for absolutely no reason…
Think about it for a second and you’ll realize just how inappropriate that would be… If your post has been flagged… it has been flagged… at that stage knowing who did it just for the sake of that knowledge will do you absolutely nothing…
The only imaginable reason you would want to know is to plan some sort of retaliation or try to intimidate people into not flagging you… both scenarios would be very counter-productive to the functioning of the forums and would promote bullying and inappropriate behavior that are against the code of conduct… So why would Funcom implement a feature that would promote behavior against their CoC? It literally makes no sense and is a dangerous game to play. There have been incidents in the past with online disagreements leading to IRL violence for example so we certainly don’t need any features that don’t bring any benefit, but would potentially fuel that side of things.
But I still have a flagged post that followed the guidelines and was flagged multiple times. I’m still confused as to what exactly the issue was and why moderation has left it hanging like this for so long.
The reason?
" Your post was flagged as inappropriate: the community feels it is offensive, abusive, to be hateful conduct or a violation of our community guidelines.
The community flagged this post and now it is hidden. Because this post has been hidden more than once, your post will now remain hidden until it is handled by a staff member."
In fact @CodeMage, you’d reacted to both my initial comment and my confusion reply on the same post.
So while I appreciate the kudos to the hardworking moderators… it was decided that my simple question, which was in no way offensive, was to remain flagged.
No one is perfect. No system is perfect. Sure. I’ll leave it at that despite some of the behaviour I’ve seen on here both by members and the moderation team.
You know, I find it rather striking that people can come into this thread and blather on about how they HAVE PROOF of this and how they have PROVEN THAT. And yet, when it is all said and done, they all have said literally nothing at all. Ad hominem arguments about how “thin skinned people” are these days is just a logical fallacy used to distract people from the simple fact that you have no proof. You have no evidence that you can show anyone.
Could it possibly be that such behavior, refusing to listen to data or evidence and attacking others instead of providing your own, might be the very reason you all are being flagged in the first place? Maybe a little self reflection could go a long way?
Even if they had proof, it would be irrelevant. The premise of the argument that an ignore/mute option exists, therefor any/most speech should be allowed is flawed. On a privately owned/rented game server or in a web-based forum, the owner/renter gets to decide what kind of speech is allowed.
In this case the option to ignore/mute is for things that are allowed, but the individual doesn’t want to deal with. Things that aren’t allowed simply aren’t allowed, even if all the users currently engaged in chat or a discussion are fine with said speech. Its not a democracy.
As I explained earlier, when someone (and it takes a few) flags a post outside of the guidelines, the poster can simply edit the post to unhide it. If its hidden again, a moderator will be alerted and can unhide it, keep it hidden (if they feel its needed, that’s their prerogative), keep it hidden and take action, edit it, or delete it. They can also take action even if a post isn’t flagged, and decide to hide, edit, delete, and take action if they feel the need, as Cattibria has indicated.
‘Community moderation’ is simply a tool used by the forum owners to achieve the sort of content they wish. At the end of the day, it is their wish. This is not the place for unregulated speech.
You’re welcome to post on reddit instead 
That it’s not your issue for being rude or posting nonsense… it’s everybody elses problem that they take offense at it… 