Liu Fei, the Yothga plant and the case of poor writing

When Age of Heroes was released Liu Fei was introduced as one of the new fully voiced Companions you could obtain via a chain of quests. If you go through just the very intoduction quest line you will find the following quest dialog (sorry for spoilers if you haven’t done this but this is over a year old now so get over it).

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image(this is a dialog option for the player)

image(this is a dialog option for the player)

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Now, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is the problem with this dialog? It would appear to set up a decent story as to why Liu Fei is in the Exiles Land and why he is not simply trapped within the Exiled Lands but his fate is actually far worse than that! And it set you up nicely with a quest to obtain some items (I left that part out but it’s basic materials from the Sorcery line, nothing special) to free him from his imprisonment within the Yothga plant. Well, that kind of exactly is the problem itself.

The Yothga plant originates in the story The Scarlet Citadel, written by Robert E. Howard (the creator of Conan). Conan, at this point in time King of Aquilona, rides out with 5,000 Calvary expecting the King of Ophir, an ally of his, to support him against the King of Koth, a mutual enemy. However the King of Ophir had betrayed him and instead allied with the King of Koth and they had a force of “thirty thousand knights, archers and spearmen”. Needless to say the Aquilonians did not win the battle and Conan was taken captive.

Behind the two kings is the Wizard Tsotha-lanti. Now, after being tossed into the pit underneath the citadel where Tsotha-lanti reigned in Koth Conan stumbles into a room. In that room this is what Conan finds:

“He was braced for the sight of anything, yet what he saw was what he had least expected. He was looking into a broad cell, and a space of this was caged off with closely set bars extending from floor to ceiling, set firmly in the stone. Within these bars lay a figure, which, as he approached, he saw was either a man, or the exact likeness of a man, twined and bound about with the tendrils of a thick vine which seemed to grow through the solid stone of the floor. It was covered with strangely pointed leaves and crimson blossoms—not the satiny red of natural petals, but a livid, unnatural crimson, like a perversity of flower- life. Its clinging, pliant branches wound about the man’s naked body and limbs, seeming to caress his shrinking flesh with lustful avid kisses. One great blossom hovered exactly over his mouth. A low bestial moaning drooled from the loose lips; the head rolled as if in unbearable agony, and the eyes looked full at Conan. But there was no light of intelligence in them; they were blank, glassy, the eyes of an idiot.

Now the great crimson blossom dipped and pressed its petals over the writhing lips. The limbs of the wretch twisted in anguish; the tendrils of the plant quivered as if in ecstasy, vibrating their full snaky lengths. Waves of changing hues surged over them; their color grew deeper, more venomous.

Conan did not understand what he saw, but he knew that he looked on Horror of some kind. Man or demon, the suffering of the captive touched Conan’s wayward and impulsive heart. He sought for entrance and found a grille-like door in the bars, fastened with a heavy lock, for which he found a key among the keys he carried, and entered. Instantly the petals of the livid blossoms spread like the hood of a cobra, the tendrils reared menacingly and the whole plant shook and swayed toward him. Here was no blind growth of natural vegetation. Conan sensed a malignant intelligence; the plant could see him, and he felt its hate emanate from it in almost tangible waves. Stepping warily nearer, he marked the root-stem, a repulsively supple stalk thicker than his thigh, and even as the long tendrils arched toward him with a rattle of leaves and hiss, he swung his sword and cut through the stem with a single stroke.

Instantly the wretch in its clutches was thrown violently aside as the great vine lashed and knotted like a beheaded serpent, rolling into a huge irregular ball. The tendrils thrashed and writhed, the leaves shook and rattled like castanets, and the petals opened and closed convulsively; then the whole length straightened out limply, the vivid colors paled and dimmed, a reeking white liquid oozed from the severed stump.

Conan stared, spellbound; then a sound brought him round, sword lifted. The freed man was on his feet, surveying him. Conan gaped in wonder. No longer were the eyes in the worn face expressionless. Dark and meditative, they were alive with intelligence, and the expression of imbecility had dropped from the face like a mask. The head was narrow and well-formed, with a high splendid forehead. The whole build of the man was aristocratic, evident no less in his tall slender frame than in his small trim feet and hands. His first words were strange and startling.

“What year is this?” he asked, speaking Kothic.

“Today is the tenth day of the month Yuluk, of the year of the Gazelle,” answered Conan.

“Yagkoolan Ishtar!” murmured the stranger. “Ten years!” He drew a hand across his brow, shaking his head as if to clear his brain of cobwebs. “All is dim yet. After a ten-year emptiness, the mind can not be expected to begin functioning clearly at once. Who are you?”

“Conan, once of Cimmeria. Now king of Aquilonia.”

The other’s eyes showed surprize. “Indeed? And Namedides?”

“I strangled him on his throne the night I took the royal city,” answered Conan.

A certain naivete in the king’s reply twitched the stranger’s lips. “Pardon, your majesty. I should have thanked you for the service you have done me. I am like a man woken suddenly from sleep deeper than death and shot with nightmares of agony more fierce than hell, but I understand that you delivered me. Tell me—why did you cut the stem of the plant Yothga instead of tearing it up by the roots?”

“Because I learned long ago to avoid touching with my flesh that which I do not understand,” answered the Cimmerian.

“Well for you,” said the stranger. “Had you been able to tear it up, you might have found things clinging to the roots against which not even your sword would prevail. Yothga’s roots are set in hell.”

“But who are you?” demanded Conan.

“Men called me Pelias.”

“What!” cried the king. “Pelias the sorcerer, Tsotha-lanti’s rival, who vanished from the earth ten years ago?”

“Not entirely from the earth,” answered Pelias with a wry smile. "Tsotha preferred to keep me alive, in shackles more grim than rusted iron. He pent me in here with this devil-flower whose seeds drifted down through the black cosmos from Yag the Accursed, and found fertile field only in the maggot- writhing corruption that seethes on the floors of hell.

“I could not remember my sorcery and the words and symbols of my power, with that cursed thing gripping me and drinking my soul with its loathsome caresses. It sucked the contents of my mind day and night, leaving my brain as empty as a broken wine-jug. Ten years! Ishtar preserve us!”

So, as we can see from this text from The Scarlet Citadel the Ygotha plant has been in Koth for a minimum of 10 years. Not only that but it was under the control of the wizard Tsotha-lanti. So was Ygotha a demon or a plant? Well, it was clearly a plant, but not only that it was a plant which came from a completely different planet.

“He pent me in here with this devil-flower whose seeds drifted down through the black cosmos from Yag the Accursed, and found fertile field only in the maggot- writhing corruption that seethes on the floors of hell.”

So the seed of Ygotha drifted down from space from Yag, which is a different planet. Now, how do we know that Yag is a different planet? We are told so by Yag-Kosha in The Tower of the Elephant.

“'I am very old, oh man of the waste countries; long and long ago I came to this planet with others of my world, from the green planet Yag, which circles for ever in the outer fringe of this universe. “

So now that we know that Yag is another planet which has plant life as well as sentient beings, but what of Yag himself? He isn’t human, that is certain. In fact he has been around since before the Hyborian Age and lived through the Cataclysm which ended the Thurian Age. Heck, he is even older than the Thurian Age itself. Though Yag-Kosha was not the only of his race to have come to the Earth he is the only one still living, though he does not live to the ending of the story.

“'We saw men grow from the ape and build the shining cities of Valusia, Kamelia, Commoria and their sisters. We saw them reel before the thrusts of the heathen Atlanteans and Picts and Lemurians. We saw the oceans rise and engulf Atlantis and Lemuria, and the isles of the Picts, and the shining cities of civilization. We saw the survivors of Pictdom and Atlantis build their stone-age empires, and go down to ruin, locked in bloody wars. We saw the Picts sink into abysmal savagery, the Atlanteans into apedom again. We saw new savages drift southward in conquering waves from the Arctic circle to build a new civilization, with new kingdoms called Nemedia, and Koth, and Aquilonia and their sisters. We saw your people rise under a new name from the jungles of the apes that had been Atlanteans. We saw the descendants of the Lemurians who had survived the cataclysm, rise again through savagery and ride westward as Hyrkanians. And we saw this race of devils, survivors of the ancient civilization that was before Atlantis sank, come once more into culture and power—this accursed kingdom of Zamora. “

Now you may be wondering why in The Tower of the Elephant the planet is refereed to as “the green planet Yag” and yet in The Scarlet Citadel” it is referred to as “Yag the Accursed”. That is not difficult to understand. Yag-Kosha is from Yag and therefor he has fond memories of him home, even if he has been exiled from there. Pelias on the other hand is a human from Earth who has been tortured for ten whole years by the Ygotha plant and naturally has a jaded and biased view of all things hailing from that planet as it is the only thing from Yag that he has encountered.

Now to get back to Liu Fei and the issues with the writing by the Funcom staff of writers on this Companion quest (of which I am only addressing the introductory quest). For one thing, the Ygotha plant should not be in the Exiled Lands as it is clearly shown to be in Koth. For another thing, Liu Fei claims to be trapped WITHIN the Ygotha plant, and you only see him at this point in a spectral ghostly form. However when Conan first encounters the Ygotha plant Pelias is very much in the physical realm and the Yothga plant is physically restraining him while drugging him with the nectar of its flowers. The plant was also said to be covered with leaves and crimson blossoms (basically blood red) and it was sucking the life energy directly from Pelias’s mouth. It most assuredly did not need to trick Pelias, after all if was Tsotha-lanti who used the Yothga plant specifically because it would keep Pelias alive and yet completely incapacitated while in excruciating agony. Yothga was not in control, Yothga was not attempting to “enter through a doorway to being feasting”, it had already been here because it had traversed as a seed through space and had been cultivated and grown BY TSOTHA-LANTI!

Yes it is true that the Yothga plant clearly showed a level of intelligence, to at least a small degree. Much like any carnivorous plant it was able to trap it’s prey and hold it in place while it fed, but that does not mean it was possessing an intelligence of a level that it was sentient. But it is quite simply a plant that feeds off of other living entities, not a demons that devours entire worlds or any other nonsense.

So why would sorcerers from Khitai be watching the skies for countless centuries for the “return of a demon”? Your guess is as good as anyone’s. Yag-Kosha had been worshiped as a god in the jungles of Khita. Then came Yara, from Zamora.

“'First he sat at my feet and learned wisdom. But he was not satisfied with what I taught him, for it was white magic.”

So Yag-Kosha had freely offered wisdom and even taught some magic, what he considered to be “white magic” to the local people’s of Khitai who worshiped him. But Yara had eventually tricked him into divulging a secret which lead to him being enslaved and then chained and dragged back to Zamora where he was tortured so that he may reveal even more of his secrets, specifically those pertaining to “black magic”. However, since Yag-Kosha and the rest of his people (all of whom had already died long ago) had come to the earth before even the Thurian Age thus none of the people of Khitai should have even known that they came to the Earth from outer space in the first place. And since the Yothga seed was clearly cultivated and grown in Koth that did not land in Khita either. So there is no logical reason for anyone in Khitai to possibly think that any “demon” is going to “return from the sky” for “countless centuries”. It simply does not make any sense at all.

There are very specific lines which are very much taken directly from The Scarlet Citadel which would indicate that they writers had indeed read the source material prior to writing this script. So how could they have written an introductory quest story so vastly inconsistent with the established lore?

I will end this by enclosing a photograph of the plant, and the spectral image of Liu Fei (the player is not me, it is from a wak4863 video). Please take notice of the lack of leaves and the lack of crimson blossoms. How did the artists get these clearly defined traits so very wrong?

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Only if you assume only one Ygotha plant exists.

If you get close enough to it, you can see his physical form held within the tendrils of the plant.

The “beast” that tricked Liu Fei and is attempting to cross over is not the Yothga plant, it is Mezzamallech. The demon is merely using the plant to hold Liu Fei captive, the “vegetal prison.”

They were not looking for the Yothga plant, they were looking for Mezzamallech.

It does have “strangely pointed leaves” around its base:

Though it is certainly not “covered” in them and is missing crimson blossoms, but unless any dev wants to come in here and explain why, we can only guess the reason.

I do not think these components missing automatically means poor writing (or graphics) though. I can think of a few explanations, and not all of them are bad.

  1. Possibly they did not have time to animate it. However, they never made any statements that the design was incomplete and made this plant a craftable decoration. If it was incomplete, either the craftable version should have been withheld until they were able to update it properly, or they could have said it was an incomplete design and would be updated with a later patch (which may have never come as we entered the bug fixing phase).
  2. They made a conscious decision to make it a different design for the purpose of differentiating it from the Yothga plant in The Scarlet Citadel to make a point that they were not the same plant (in which case, they would have failed, because this thread exists).
  3. Probably the least acceptable reason: they decided to make it this way because it looked more intimidating and decided artistic license was preferable to lore.
  4. All of the above. They were running out of time and said, “Let’s just drop the leaves and blossoms, it looks more intimidating without them anyway, and besides, it will make it more obvious that this is a different plant from the one Conan destroys.”

According to Robert E. Howard’s lore in “The Scarlet Citadel”, the seeds of the Yothga plant originate from the accursed star Yag and “drift” into the world. Thee seeds for the Yothga only germinate in the lowest, most vile reaches of the underworld, requiring tainted or spiritually corrupted soil to take root. The plant’s growth is tied to dark, supernatural forces, and only sorcerers “powerful and mad enough” who have made pacts with eldritch powers know the secrets to cultivating it. Its development is described as a slow, unnatural process, feeding on the thoughts and memories of intelligent beings.

What is the “Underworld”?

The Underworld is not a mythological afterlife but a physical, nightmarish domain of unnatural horrors, where the sorcerer Tsotha-lanti conducts his eldritch experiments. It is described as a kingdom of darkness filled with grotesque monstrosities, echoing with inhuman sounds, and haunted by shadowy, abnormal forms. The underworld contains walled-up doorways leading to ruins of a forgotten city, bottomless wells emitting ghostly winds and distant drumming, and is so deeply buried that it lies far below the city streets. It is a place of primal dread, where even the monstrous albino serpent fears the wizard Pelias, and where seeds of the vampiric Yothga plant can only germinate in its vile, corrupted depths.

How do Yothga plants get from the star (not planet) Yag to the Underworld?

Yothga plants reach the underworld via their seeds, which drift across the timeless black gulfs of space from the accursed star Yag. These seeds are not planted by natural means but arrive on Earth from their alien origin. Once they land, they only germinate in the lowest, most vile reaches of the underworld, where the corrupted, hell-tainted soil allows them to take root and grow. The process is supernatural, tied to the eldritch nature of the Hyborian Age, and only sorcerers like Tsotha-lanti know how to cultivate them. NOTE: Yag is a star, not a planet.

Robert E. Howard determined what the Yothga plant is and I think Funcom maintained congruency. I really like the Liu Fei quest and the character’s abilities. It’s awesome to have NPC sorcerers. The sorcery in this game is the only Howardian style sorcery in any game and I really appreciate the game. It’s magnificent and the lore is amazing as well as engaging. Knowing the lore and canon makes my experiences with the game even better.

Not according to Yag-kosha.

long and long ago I came to this planet with others of my world, from the green planet Yag, which circles for ever in the outer fringe of this universe.

That is correct. I remembered incorrectly. It is referred to as both a star and planet in “The Scarlet Citadel”, at different points. I like having the Yothga plant in the game. That is another awesome addition to the game in a long list of awesome additions from Funcom.

You don’t have to assume that it exists. You would know that it does if you do this little thing known as reading.

Which does not explain away the lack of him being fed the nector from it’s blossoms in order to keep him in a drugged state so that Yothga can continue to feed off of him, or why there is suddenly now a “spectral form” of him appearing and speaking to you, or how the Yothga plant is anywhere outside of Koth.

Oh great, more random H. P. Lovecraft garbage shoehorned in for no god damned reason! Which just proves my point of poor writing even more!

Sorry @Tephra but no matter how much you want to justify this, you cannot. They did a bloody awful job on this.

I literally put the text from the Scarlet Citadel in my original post in block quotes, as well as the relevant text from the tower of the elephant as well.

The seeds of the Yothga plant are basically ejected out into space. Space is VAST and where they will end up, be it a habitiable planet, a moon, or left to drift for all eternity is left to pure and random chance. The fact that one of these seeds happened to land on THE SAME PLANET that Yag-Kosha and the other rebels who fled with him landed upon is astronomical beyond calculation. For more than one of these seeds to land here… well now you are reaching into the realm of impossibility.

These two things contradict one another. You do realize that right? :wink:

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Mezzamallech is not from any lovecraftian source. To my knowledge, he was made up by funcom as a stand-in sorcerer rival to Liu similar to how TL was a rival to Pelias. So, a reference to an REH story…

If you really have an issue with Lovecraft’s work being included I would suggest getting either a shovel or a time machine and going to tell REH himself to stop including his works.

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Nice to see other people reading conan novels.

I reads the 2 novels and didn’t make link between with Yag planet, so thanks to that.

And yes, the plant to work and look the same between book and game.

Maybe funcom shoud have chosen a different name to the pant, people they read scarlet citadel would have gotten the reference and their would be no contradictions betweens game and books.

in the other side, I’m not agree with the idea than only one yothga plant exist.

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When I typed in Messamallech into Goggle there were only two results for Zon Messamallech, both of which were for H. P. Lovecraft. I therefore assumed that Funcom left off the Zon part of the name but otherwise used the albeit obscure Lovecraft creation for their story.

I have an issue with inserting Lovecrafts works where they do not belong, and at the exclusion of using the words of Robert E. Howard. Funcom almost entirely crafts their stories based upon Lovecraft, not upon Howard. That is what I have an issue with.

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It seem come from a pastich of both conan and lovecraft univers.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence the two names are the same…

To my knowledge, there are no Lovecraftian elements in Conan writen by Robert E Howard, there are some things inspired by lovecraft, but not from this univers.

I think it’s Lyon Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter who bring real lovecraft elements to conan universe.

Perhaps I’m mistaken, correct me if I am.

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You should try that reading thing so you would see that I wrote “Only if you assume only one Ygotha plant exists.” I am in no way suggesting they do not exist, I am suggesting that there are multiple Ygotha plants, and only one of them is in Koth.


The fact that you apparently never heard of Mezzamallech strongly indicates you never actually did Liu Fei’s questline, so it makes sense that you have no understanding of his story in the game.

You do not realize that the Ygotha plant plays little more role in the story than a mere prop that could have just as easily been a cage (but less thematically interesting).

You fail to know that Mezzamallech is the true enemy that is manipulating both Liu Fei and the player.

The spectral form you first encounter is Mezzamallech pretending to be Liu Fei to trick you into helping it.

Maybe you should actually learn the story before you complain about it.

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So…

Expecting a 1:1 form of it. Means it shouldn’t exist. So Funcom can’t use it in that form.

Instead, they twist it slightly, and leave Fan Base a reference. Which can be done in several methods, each will have a oddity about it. But we get a nice reference to something from Books.

But doing a 1:1 would not work..

So they took liberties to add it.

Not seeing the issue? It was never gonna be prefect?

I started the quest, and went this is like the one Story with wizard that Conan Frees, And was like “Cool!”
I have yet to finish the quest.. I kinda figure we’d fail and then have to cut him free like Conan did, and lulz it worked. I don’t use Sorc stuff all that much. May never get around to it -_-’

I got what Funcom was poking at, which made me Smile. Which is likely the point. Not much more then that.

I enjoy the game every time play it or think about it. It’s awesome.

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I share some scepticism about the extent of Lovecraftian elements included in the game. There is some overlap between Lovecraft’s and REH’s imaginary worlds, but that doesn’t mean that Lovecraftian elements should play too great or even any role in a Conan game.

To give a comparison:

Superman and Batman, according to the “lore”, exist in the same reality. They know of each other, they even meet each other, and in one story, they even fight each other.

Still, in a Batman movie, Batman should play the central role, and Superman preferably shouldn’t even be mentioned without good reason. If Batman would, for example, call upon his nearly invincible colleague to fight his enemies, it would invalidate his own struggle and meaning.

Similarly, in a game called “Conan Exiles”, Lovecraftian elements can be fine, but should not overshadow the low fantasy, down-to-(fictional-)earth nature of the Conan universe. There’s magic in Conan’s adventures, but most things can (and should) be solved with muscle, steel and brains. The Conan universe is, in some way, nihilistic, but not as pessimistic as Lovecraft’s stories. Magic is terrifying, but not necessarily very powerful or unbeatable.Sorcerers and demons regularly get punched into oblivion by Conan. In Lovecraft’s stories, the demons, aliens and so on are much, much more powerful. One can escape them, but one can never beat them.

A Conan story or game should try to keep that flavor.

Regarding the Yogtha plant… oh well, I think Oduda has proven some discrepancies. Personally, I’m not as critical about relatively minor errors like that. But you do have a point there, fellow barbarian, and in the greater picture, I hope we can all agree: It’s Conan Exiles, not Charles Dexter Ward Exiles.

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Funcom created a masterpiece with this game. I have an excellent Hyborian Age experience every time I play it. I have several Liu Fei characters with different perks and weapons which are sorcerers in my cabal and I enjoy having them in the game.

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Then I will refer you back up to here.

Sorry but I do not deal with the realm of impossibility in order to “make my desired outcome work”.

And that right there proves my point more than you even realize. The fact that they DID in fact use something that CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT have ever been in the exiled lands at all, because it is quite literally a fvcking plant growing in Koth, is precicely why this is proof of this being a case of POOR WRITING. And yet you seemingly cannot comprehend that because you are such a Funcom fanatic (you have admitted before that you knew nothing of the source material prior to playing the game, which is not a knock on you, but you ARE fanatical about the in game lore to the exclusion of the source material to be perfectly honest).

Yeah, this is pretty much it. There is some overlap. But it is very little and very subtle at best. Robert E. Howard mentions Dagon, but Dagon does not actually appear in any of the stories. There was an ancient city (now destroyed) that used to worship Dagon, but otherwise no one seems to know of Dagon’s existence. And this was in the Villeyet Sea, and the people were not Lemurian. :wink: Otherwise there really is not much, though some people like to attempt to link Yog of the Empty Abode to Yog-Sothoth (an H. P. Lovecraft creation) there is actually nothing at all which would link the two together.

Edit: I do have to make one edit to this. I should not even say that the reference to Dagon is specifically even a reference to H. P. Lovecraft as Dagon was an ancient Sumerian / Phoenician god and well all know that Robert E. Howard used the gods of the ancient world to build his Hyborian pantheon off of so it could just as easily have been that Dagon he was making a reference to.

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I am not arguing that this is not a great game. I have played since early access, and I played Age of Conan since launch day up until early access of Conan Exiles. So that is not the point I was attempting to make. :wink:

I’d have a better experience if they took better care of the game (in both cases, and in regards to the actual coding aspect :wink: ). But that has little to do with this. :rofl:

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Demons do not need to depend on random chance.

One of them is growing in Koth.

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That is the weakest argument you could have made. Sorry, but no.

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