A simple fix for archers


#1

So I noticed a few other threads but the suggestions weren’t simple enough to implement quickly. So this should be a quick win for Funcom to implement in a patch I’ll explain this in detail what I think the issues are, and what I would suggest to fix them.

There are three issues with archery I’ll go in depth below for each issue with a suggested fix. These fixes won’t break the game or make archery broken even in pvp.

  1. The first being the damage output is so much lower than melee.
    Problem:
    So to fix the first issue you need to increase the damage of bows, and it’s ammo use. To put it into perspective the one handed axe I was wielding towards the end of the game was pulling 110 total damage with the strength tree fully invested. The top end bow, with top end arrows, and fully invested was 55 total damage. So this alone means that hit for hit the melee will out perform all day every day.
    Solution:
    So a simple fix is to increase the damage of bows to match that of other weapons. Meaning with high end bows and arrows per hit I should be pulling 110 total damage. This is easy to flip a few numbers and run them on test servers to make sure they are balanced for PVE/PVP (though to be honest PVP balancing is useless in my opinion).

  2. The second is that it’s far less useful than melee.
    Problem:
    I can run up to any enemy in the game and just about 3 or 4 shot it with melee weapons so a fight lasts less than 5 seconds. With archery you stand way back and aim for the head with a heavy shot. In most cases you either miss, or the enemy walks out of the arrows way. Since the projectile is so slow that it’s laughable this makes skill useless anyways. A battle with an enemy will easily last 30 seconds or more. Also the amount of stamina used makes archery pretty useless. It should take less effort to pull a bow back and fire than swinging a two handed spear around.
    Solution:
    Allow a longer range for bows to target enemies and allow an auto shoot feature. This will make shooting at a distance easier, and increase the projectile speed so that a moving target actually gets hit 90% of the time. Change the stamina costs to be in line with melee weapons.

  3. The third issues is ammo costs.
    Problem:
    The ammo costs are way to high. I mean you’d be stupid to make tons of ammo, and in most cases players recommend the snake arrows because they take branches to make. So you end up with a few thousand without too many issues. Per 1000 arrows it could easily take you and hour+ depending on the tier of arrow just to increase your damage slightly. While melee makes the weapon once and never looks back. Making arrows just an annoyance to play with.
    Solution:
    I would reduce the cost of all arrows to 1 bar of material, and 1 piece of wood type per 100 arrows. Also drop the feathers, cause that’s just annoying. Yeah we get that arrows normally have feathers but quality of life is horrible when you need to go farm feathers just to get your weapon to work. Something melee doesn’t even have to do EVER.

Let me know if you agree or disagree, and why. Thanks :slight_smile:


#2

I agree with everything except your issue with how much it costs to make arrows. If you buff the damage then you will be using half the arrows anyways. Not to mention feathers are not a big deal, go out kill 2-3 birds you have a few hundred. My group used to collect them but gave up due to always having a insane amount without trying. Its true they are only in the southern areas but they are light and thus mass farming is easy.


#3
  1. The main issue we’re facing with archery, is that if its damage is in line with melee weapons but at range, then everyone will become archers. Because there would be no advantage to melee weapons over bows. So they reduce the damage of the bow so that melee weapons can still compete. The advantage of the melee weapon is high damage but at the trade off of requiring you to be up close. While the advantage of the bow is ranged damage with the trade off of lower damage. This is so people can’t engage someone with the bow from range and have them dead before they reach you.

However, the shield allows for a new dynamic. Since the shield deflects all arrow fire directed at you, they could boost the bows damage more in line with other weapons because there is a way to counter archery fire more reliably.

  1. To address this issue they try to reward players for accuracy, but accuracy is based on the accuracy skill and not on player skill unlike all other weapons. To fix this they need to put the bow in line with other weapons. It has to be the player skill at aiming that determines whether or not you hit enemies, then this aim for the head system can be more rewarding. It rewards players with more skill (player skill/not character skill) in the game, which is reasonable.

  2. They could add that to the archery line (currently accuracy but needs to change to something else like Hunting) where tier 1 of accuracy could be to lower the cost of crafting all ammunition by 50%. So only people specialized in accuracy get this benefit.

  3. I would add another issue with the bow. The Accuracy line needs to be revamped, change it to Hunting. Get rid of the random aspect of where your arrows land. Convert it to player skill and players aiming on their own. Like all other weapons. Then use this new Hunting line to boost damage with all projectile weapons, including bows/javelins/etc. Create abilities for this new line, tier 1-5 that support a ranged damage character.


#4

Have to agree with all points. Archery now is the worst archery ever from any game I played.

Anither issue arrows can only be crafted on the bench which reduces crafting costs but disables you from making then on the field. A better approach would be to have arrows require material arrowhead, branch and feather.
That way you could control the production cost with arrowhead and be balanced with thrall reducing crafting costs while allowing you to travel with some steel arrowheads and craft as you go.

About damage, the artificial reduced damage to encourage melee is ridiculous, I have said it since bows where removes from the game.

Remember its way harder to use bow and hit a moving player that can also become immune to arrows behind a shield.
If melee was so great war tanks would have axes instead of cannons. There is a reason firearms replaced melee combat, artificially making ranged combat weaker is stupid.

The heavy shot without player control must also be resolved, its awkward and totaly stupid not to be able to release when you wish.


#5

I like the arrowhead idea, so archers would carry a bunch of arrow heads which are extremely light weight on them and make arrows as they go.

Yeah it doesn’t make any sense unless you are trying to balance for pvp. One idea is to have each weapon have a strength and a weakness, a purpose for its use like a tool. The developers should look into the different weapon types and try to come up with a rock/paper/scissors style for combat. Shields trump bows, axes trump shields, etc. Each weapon has it’s uses for certain problems, including the bow.

You gave me an idea, heavy shot with the bow should pierce through shields. You have to hold and release at the right time (once fixed). Plus it has more power behind it. It would make sense to be able to pierce a shield and hit the person holding it.


#6

One important change for projectiles: let people recover ammo from bodies. Make it a chance that an arrow will shatter, but in essenece you should be able to pull out arrows out of bodies. Different tiers can have different chances to shatter (such as lowest tier being non-recoverable)


#7

I agree, but also want to add something else…

If you’re going to buff archery for players then you would also have to buff it for thralls. Right now archer thralls are super overpowered if you have 10+. If range for players increased then the thralls would also have to get an increase so players don’t just snipe thralls off your walls.

I think archery should be easier, sorry skilled players; maybe have a perk that curves an arrow slightly to its initial target if it moves. So if you aim for the head the arrow will curve slightly if the target is moving. I know this would be harder to code, but it’s something.

Another Idea I have is making two categories of bows: longbow and short bows. Longbows fire slower and at a greater distance, even with light attacks being slow but heavy attacks a player could hold/charge to aim and do more damage. While a short bow has basic shots (like what we currently have) but for the heavy have a fast rapid fire or multi-arrow shot. These bow types would also change a thralls threat range when they have the specific type equip.

If I missed anything, or something you think should be done different, reply to this comment and I most likely will comment back.


#8

I think you just found the reason why PVE and PVP never find a balance between the two. It’s like oil and water, they just don’t mix. You can balance for PVP but then it creates an imbalance for PVE and vice versa. I think the only solution is to keep the two separate. One way to do this is to have PVP keep equilibrium between people and combat styles (Axe, Sword, Spear, Bow, Two Handed Sword, etc) balancing damage, distance, ranged, etc for player combat. Then a separate scale for PVE for combat styles (Axe, Sword, Spear, Bow, Two Handed Sword etc) balancing damage, distance, ranged, etc for combat against NPCs. So people can compete in PVP on equal footing, and PVE compensates for a lack of intelligence with a greater handicap (advantage).


#9

EDITED.: Fixed the quoted part :sweat_smile:

Agree it needs a buff but should not be paired with one handed weapons either. You can kite while attack in a bow, can kill from a cliff, can land shots while enemies are approaching and spending stamina just trying to close the gap and to protect from arrows. Maybe 70-80% is enough. The accuracy 50 perk should also be base game, maybe.

That said I agree with @Straph in all other points. But first we need the arrows actually landing on targets so arrow speed should be priority, tuning the damage and weight for arrows in a second step.


#10

I don’t know, I really hate the whole accuracy line in general. I really want bow to be aim and shoot; for it to hit where you aim (player skill not character skill). I vote for accuracy to be completely revamped to ‘Hunting’. A line specializing in projectile weapons and maybe distance melee weapons (like spears to keep players at range), not just bows, but also javelins and throwing axes. Maybe increasing crippling effects by specializing down the hunting line. Introduce traps for damage and traps for knocking down/tripping players.

Far as arrow speed goes, it will definitely need some testing.

I like the longbow and short bow ideas, gives players a choice for their play style.


#11

Yeah. I said it in another post in the theme already. Having acc for bows is actually not a benefit but an extra requirement. A more generic benefit that favors more the archery playstyle but still benefits other ones would be nice. The extra damage provided by the accuracy right now could be added to the strenght when using bows or just be base game whith the right tuning =).


#12

Oh, I guess It was just a misunderstanding then on my part. And I suppose they could keep accuracy as a line IF it was just a damage boost with the rationale that it helped the character to aim better at vital organs and weak points. So instead of it impacting arrow trajectory, it impacted damage of projectiles and possibly two handed melee weapons (Why two handed? Because two handed melee allows you to focus your attention only on attacks; while one handed melee weapons use a combination of attack and defense with the shield. So you can be more deadly with the two hander, but at the cost of protection and not having a shield). That was always strange I thought, about the one handed axe being able to ignore shields and do better than two handed weapons, and also use a shield.

They definitely need to work on balancing each weapon with a purpose.

Suggestions: Axe anti shield is okay, hammer as anti heavy armor is okay, daggers for massive bleeds (anti heal), spear for reach (anti proximity/spears should push opponents back with each hit), one handed sword for ??, two handed sword for ??, bows for range but weak against shields works, throwing axes for anti shield but a much shorter range?, javelins for a spear you can throw (a ranged knockdown? If it hits)

off-topic: I feel like two handed weapons should stagger/interrupt and attack through one handed weapon combos and not the other way around. I mean more power is behind the two handed weapons and not the other way around. The advantage of one handed weapons should be speed, not power. The one handed axe has a short AOE that is devastating, fast and powerful. All two handed weapons should attack through one handed combos, and one handed combos should not interrupt two handed combos. So the two handed fighters should weather damage but still be able to keep their combos going if they choose. Otherwise they are slow and easily negated. I’ll post this on a new topic.


#13

Yeah. I feel that every weapon in the game lacks of some tuning and balancing. Axe is really great indeed and the lacking of penetration on it dosent look to compensate. I miss a anti shield 2handed weapon. Why hammers arent that weapon. Is funny how you can bypass a shiled with a mace but cant with a heavy hammer.

I tought about acc giving penetration or adding critical chance to the game, and leaving the hit thing more player skill based. But I dont know really , fact is that acc and bows needs a revamp and adding orbs to it is not a good way =/


#14

Yeah now that I’m late game it’s not an issues, but early game the feathers are. So maybe balance the feathers better would be a better suggestion. Thanks for your input.


#15

I totally disagree with PVP and PVE needing to be separated. If you balance the game correctly than ranged and melee should be on par with each other. The best thing to do is make armor pen the main factor in PVP, so that archery isn’t OP. Arrows should have maximum 5% AP on heavy, 10% on medium, and 15% on light armors. Meanwhile the PVE people are happy because they can use archery to kill things as fast as melee like since there wouldn’t be any armor penetration needed for mobs. So that’s the direction I would ask the devs go in. This allows the devs to focus on one system instead of two. Two systems also means more bugs.


#16

I think that melee and ranged should be equal, if you outsmart your opponents then arrows should be better. As a player I have to choose which one I focus in. Ranged or melee, and depending on which one I choose I should be able to keep up with the other specialists. History shows us that arrows were better, and thus heavy armor was invented. After heavy armor was invented to counter bows, crossbows were invented to punch threw that armor. After which point bullet proof vests, and helmets were invented. In a game everything in the end should be equally effective. Other wise you have the issues we have now. I would never choose ranged now, because melee is so OP. If everyone chooses melee because it’s the obvious choice than ranged is broken.


#17