Archery really needs some love

But aren’t you doing just that? Aren’t you saying they do so little damage in comparison to melee weapons? And effectively saying that you’d have to switch to melee weapons when they get close where you’d be less effective because you didn’t spend the points? Doesn’t this argument go both ways? I mean, there’s always going to be a trade off. A melee person is good in melee sure, but keep in mind THEY’RE giving up something in order to do that. Same with ranged. It’s all about finding something that works well for you. As many here have pointed out, they’ve got bows that do some phenomenal damage while still being able to put up a decent fight in melee. The same is true for people who primary Melee. One of the things with ranged is that it’s great for ambushes or fortified positions. I mean just imagine standing atop a wall and raining fire down on the enemy. How are they going to close the gap? They’d have to climb the wall. And surprise! Damage causes you to fall. Good way to take out an enemy that either has to retreat and wait you out… or die trying to get at you. As for NPCs? They can’t climb so well.

nah! Instead the more range, the more damage. Snipey!
I think bows should stay weak for melee.

To be accurate after what my brain tells me… I think it was Joel who said they intended the bows as sidearms and went well beyond that.

This one of the concerns I kept in mind when I made my Archery mod. The idea was to supplement Melee without replacing it. Other archery mods at the time just increased damage too much. So I decided to make my own.

The idea was to make archery worth taking. Back then a Hunting Bow and Flint Arrows would take 15-20 shots to kill a Shaleback. But I couldn’t just increase dmg across the board. NPCs would get the bonus, and light/medium armor would just get obliterated.

So I adjusted the damage so it would take less hits in general at the lower tiers to kill lower tier NPCs, but at the higher tiers the damage increase was smaller. I boosted the Armor Pen from 8-9% to 15-27% (depending on normal, exceptional, or flawless).

I also had to figure out how bows and arrows did damage. Originally I was going to have bows deal most of the damage and arrows decide the armor pen. That was assuming dmg/arpen was added. They are not, Not even averaged. Bow does damage independently of Arrows. So that made things interesting.

If anyone wants to see my mod do a search on Steam Workshop for Tae’s Archery Fix. While it still works with the current patch, I’ve not kept up development due to the latest patches fixing Archery quite a bit in the right direction.

But back to the topic at hand and specifically what I quoted.

When I initially finished my mod, the end result was 1v1 melee vs archer… archer loses. Wait a minute, wasn’t it supposed to be more even? Well to be quite honest, yes and no.

If you went 50 ACC, and tried to duel a melee with 50 STR. He’s only got you to worry about. He can devout his entire effort on dodging your attack. There’s no way to balance around that without doing something stupid and making Archery OP. I knew this going into making my mod. I think Funcom knows this after months of Beta and months of internal testing.

But what if the fight is a bit more varied. In my experience with my mod. In a 3v3 with 3 melee vs 2 melee + 1 archer, the 3 melee are in trouble. The archer can easily focus on a target who isn’t focused on him and can do devastating damage. I got the idea from this while playing an ENC Sapper build using orbs. Ranged attacks that cannot be ignored or shrugged off are dangerous.

When I played in sieges, even melee using archery was effective before closing ranks. Some damage is better than no damage. With my mod, a few dedicated archers behind defensive walls and crenelations become extremely deadly. The literal only counter is to bombard from behind walled in Trebs.

On the server I play on now, even without my mod. Archers are very desirable for doing some group content. Lets be honest, have you ever tried to melee a target with 3-4 buddies also using melee with friendly damage at 1.0? Its painful. Having a 1-2 melee, specifically one ‘tanking’ with shield, and the rest as archers is much much preferred. Archery has the ability to put alot of dmg without drawing agro (which always goes to melee first).

Where archery admittedly falls short is if you only dabble in it. My typical encumbrance build is:

41ENC +9armor

Swapping 10 STR to 10ACC serves very little purpose, Thralling is too tough and my damage output just isn’t enough to have something pissed off and in melee with me. 10STR is enough to get a high dmg weapon like a flawless acheronian war-axe or flawless aquilonian weapon to do well enough.

But even if I dropped the 20 SUR (assuming not gathering, just moving alot of stuff), I can only have 23, which still doesn’t hit the 30 perk to ease out the extra bit of damage to be a threat.

Hell even leveling I don’t do ACC unless I can get 30 into it while still pulling 10AGI/ENC/GRT/VIT which is level 39 minimum.

You have to focus ACC harder than any other build requires if you’re going archery. I mean I’ve made builds work with only 20 STR and be formidable in melee at least in PVE. Obviously PVP requires alot more specialization.

And the other issue with focusing ACC is you are literally focusing one weapon type. Bows (and to some extent throwing axes since they base dmg off ACC). Whereas STR is all other weapons. I’m almost entertaining the idea of having daggers be based off Accuracy, but this would require a total revamp of the perks to make work. Possibly even switch Javelins over to ACC as well (including the light attack). This would do wonders to make ACC closer to STR in value. But this is one hell of a shower thought to say the least. Just throwing ideas out there.

But at the end of the day, you do have to decide what you intend to do. If you’re soloing, and you’re fighting stuff that is going to rush you. This isn’t Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind, and stealth archer isn’t the go to like a reliable axe.

One thing I do like about Archery though is hunting game with it is easy. Lets be honest, fighting Sabertooths sucks and sucks bad. Pulling one or two and killing them before they get close is very much preferred. So it has a nice use in situations like that. And of course in any sort of group situation, its very much preferred.


Have been reading the whole thread and damn good insights from a few, but your last post was the clincher… to make daggers and java etc, part of the acc chain… that makes total sense, as you have to dodge that 2 gander and hit em where it hurts, in the time they take to swing…

Personally as a history buff, like I think you are, beings don’t die from arrow damage… they die from crippling effects, in Conan games case from encumbrance, heck try to take on an archer while encumbered… bye bye… and bleed effects, modern medicine tells you not to remove anything that has penetrated your body, as you can bleed out…

I don’t see how bow damage needs to be changed, but I can see how arrow choice needs to be affected…

Like I don’t know, armour piercers, less damage
Heavier arrows reduce enc/speed
Razor arrows + bleed

Arrows don’t need to do more damage, they just need to be more situational…

And as a tongue in cheek. Why has no one come up with orb arrows yet? :crazy_face:

Uhm, no? I am saying ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, ranged ultimately deals too little damage compared to melee. Lets say you have ranged do around 85% of the damage melee does in theory, just in raw numbers. And lets place it at 95% of melee dmg because of the ranged advantage, not so much sniping as I have pointed out, but just being able to attack your opponent even when they are not yet in melee range or are already out of it.

But now we have to detract a lot from ranged because of how much harder it is to hit with ranged compared to melee, statistically making ranged worse at dealing damage, and not only because it is subjectively harder mind you, but also because the hitboxes in CE are sometimes messy, or at the very least, the game behaves as though they are, and don´t register what should be bullseye hits (as sirvink above also mentions).

Then again detract from ranged dmg for how it makes you stay on the defensive a lot of the time against melee (or else you just get slaughtered right off the bat), and waste a lot of stamina which you then cannot use to counterattack.

Then detract some more percentage from ranged for how poor it is vs multiple opponents - there is basically no way to handle more than 1 enemy (in PvP I mean) with a ranged weapon. When I had two guys attack me, I had to switch to a spear and eventually kill them that way, even though I was in an archery build. There was absolutely no time and space for me to pull out the bow and even take aim before getting double penetrated in such a situation.

Then detract more for how your fighting capabilities are limited with a bow due to a very limited supply of arrows, unless you want to be encumbered and therefore have a big disadvantage in a close quarters fight, of course. The extra weight of arrow supply of course inconveniences you in general and takes up your inventory, making you compromise and perhaps carry less healing, or just one side arm instead of your preferred two etc. etc.

Then detract more for how super bad the ranged is atm when trying to hit any player that is not right in front of you, and actively tries to evade being hit. This is of course a lot about skill, except not all that much, due to how slow the projectiles are. If the projectile speed was roughly doubled, this issue would cease to be an issue, because yes, other players could still make it a hell lot harder for you to hit them, but now it wouldn´t be mostly a roulette for you, it would be mostly about aim, therefore skill, which would only add to the playability and PvP balance. Now a really good archer could hit anyone, no matter how they zig zag while running away and trying to heal, even though it would still remain quite hard of course.

Then detract again for how ranged damage gets 100% blocked just by someone pulling out a shield and holding CTRL. Sure, most people right now don´t carry shields, but that is largely because even fewer people use bows :smiley: Shields are super OP against bows (as they should be imo), so this further diminishes the ranged spec´s utility.

So there, I think these thing put together would (generally, on average) decrease the ranged dmg efficiency by at least 25%, maybe up to 40%. So now we are looking at ranged having around 50% the damage output and general utility of melee.

And no, archers might need to swich to melee - not always the case for sure, but tends to be - in close quarters PvP, but melee players ABSOLUTELY DO NOT need to switch to bows once their opponent starts escaping. They just run him down with a spear, done and done. Very easy, fast and reliable compared to trying to snipe someone zig zagging away from you while you stand and have maybe 4 good shots before they are out of effective range.

And sure, there are some very specific situations where ranged weapons shine, but how often do you defend yourself from a player or two trying to climb up a wall or a rock formation you are standing on? Besides, unless it is quite high up, you still have basically zero chance of actually killing any of them, just buying your time before they figure out a way to flank you, surround you, build some block to protect themselves, blow you to sh*ts with a trebuchet from afar, bring some orbs to toss at you, get reinforcements, get their own bows etc. etc. So in short, bows are currently somewhat useful sidearms for some very niche situations, but despite my desire to do so and my love for archery, I would not bother carrying a bow just for these, as 99,9% of the time I would just be inconveniencing myself with extra weight I am not using in any way, but they are hardly a viable main specc.

There is one thing that does bode well for archery, and that is how speccing in STR translates into good archery potential as well, due to STR perks affecting both melee and ranged attacks. It doesn´t go the other way so much, which actually rather handicaps archery/ACC spec, since if you specc STR, you get very good at melee and somewhat decent at ranged, if you spec in ACC, you get very good at ranged, and that´s it. So STR simply has better utility than ACC.

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Thanks for the insights, very interesting :slight_smile: I really like the idea of placing some melee weapons (daggers do come to mind first) in the ACC department, that could really make ACC viable overall, since now having to switch to melee would not necessarily be that much of a problem (although with the OP spear which just dominates in PvP, I am worried you still might currently be better off just using a spear where you would deal less dmg, but at least you would actually have a chance to hit your opponent). But if the melee weapons get a bit of a balance update - mostly just tuning down the spear and probably upping the mace - this idea could be absolutely brilliant and could do wonders for the game variety, ACC utility and probably a lot more issues :slight_smile:

They have, in the last update :smiley: You can basically spam gas orbs as arrows now, and also demon fire orbs basically. And also grease orbs :smiley: So yeah, it´s all there.

Well, I would say your idea about greater arrow property variation makes sense and looks good, problem is, it would break archery even more than it is now. It would now require you to carry around at least twice the ammo as you would now, which would be absolutely out of the question, or just suck at at least half the tasks/in half the situations. If arrows got a big weight reduction AND there was an easy and quick way to change what arrows you are using with a given bow without going to the inventory and manually dragging the arrow type to the bow, which is absolutely impossible in a PvP situation unless you want to die before you even find the arrows you want, then I would say your idea is good and I would probably support it :stuck_out_tongue:

I do understand what people arw saying but I am not having the issues mentioned when it comes to aim. I have been using the bow since before it got its buff.

I do miss of course. But it makes sense to miss a snipe shot on a moving target.

My build is this.

31 Strength (Salting the wound. Works with a bow, the third perk works with archery. More damage on light attacks which allow you to use it more effectively in melee range)

10 Agility.

21 Vitality

31 Accuracy (Pict Wizard Armor +9 accuracy) Crevice in the armor works on all weapons, which is good should you need to go into melee. Works great with daggers)

Grit 20

Encumnrance 19

Survival 0.

The key here is that you can use Vitality Armor which will put you at 30 for the regen. Good for some content.

For Melee heavy potential you can get 40 Strength with Armor. This applies extra damage from the perk on heavy attacks even on the bow.

With the Eye of Khan, and a Jeball Sag potion you will hit 50 accuracy. Or 40+ Accuracy and 40 Strength which means heavy attacks and armor pen.

I use the bow in melee.

I hope they don’t make the bow just a side arm. I mean Conan isn’t totally realistic in a lot of ways but making bows a sidearm wouldn’t line up well with reality at all.

If they did side line it though, they might want to drop accuracy and just have damage buffed by strength. The power of your shot in reality would have more to do with your bow string and your ability to draw it back to put more power into a shot.

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True but there isn’t really any training in Conan Exiles, its all based on broad attributes.

I guess another way might be make crossbows stronger with no accuracy but they aren’t affected as much by increases to it either. Then bows would jump in power once you became skilled and crossbows might be more viable for a warrior strength build.

Ahh… that’s what happens when you give input on a weapon you never tried… lol
Didn’t know about the orb change…

But yes, needing to carry extra ammo and swapping them out would hurt my ideas… think I’m going to have to try a bow build next playthrough…

Your insights are godly.

I certainly agree that bows are most useful in specific circumstances, but I believe I said something to that effect already. However, you cannot balance a weapon and make it more powerful in general without making it massively more overpowered in those situations. And therein lies the issue. It, like other weapons has a use in specific situations. I’ve seen quite a few videos where archers take excellent advantage of both man made and natural terrain to utterly obliterate their opponents.

Also saying that a shield is effective at blocking shots from bows is a moot point. It blocks just about everything, including melee. ‘but you can maneuver around it!’ yes and they can turn faster than you can move, unless you sprint, which costs stamina. They also don’t regen stamina as long as their shield is up, which can be taken advantage of.

And yes, I’d agree that, lest you have a good advantage point, going up against multiple foes with a bow is… somewhat suicidal, but then, I would expect it to be. Rather than trying to make a specific weapon work in a situation where it’s at a disadvantage, you should instead put that effort into choosing the circumstances in which to engage or choosing a weapon better fit for the situation.

Thirdly, in terms of arrow weight… Never been an issue for me. Yes, arrows have weight, but it is not so astronomically much unless you’re referring to the ones that are presently broken. That’s a bug, not an intended feature. The rest weigh bout 10 a stack which is… about what I’d expect 100 arrows to weigh, and realistically unless you have ZERO encumbrance and are wearing heavy armor which… I mean I suppose you could get away with, but would be a bit silly of a choice… It’s pretty easy to carry 200-400 arrows and not be encumbered.

Yes, I’ll agree that aiming and hitting is DEFINITELY harder than hitting in melee, that’s a given. As with anything ranged, aiming is a part of the deal. But that comes with the territory with a weapon that is superbly fitted for ambush situations. And lets be honest, that’s what ‘sniping’ is about. If you’re just spamming off rounds to the point that 2-400 arrows isn’t holding you over, you’re no longer sniping and should probably reconsider your tactics.

As much as I love sniping and as difficult as I do agree it can be at times, I just cannot support the idea that bows themselves should be made more powerful. They’ve already got the potential to be extremely powerful in the right hands, in the right situation. In this case, it is one of those high skill cap weapons that while not easy to do WELL in, can potentially do VERY well with the right circumstances.

As for my opinion on adding daggers to it… mixed feelings. While I agree it would help out archers without necessarily buffing the bow itself directly, I’m a bit wary of the thought of having the skill benefit both the bow and the dagger, which themselves are different forms of combat (Melee vs ranged) in a way that you don’t necessarily see reflected in Strength. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be opposed to perhaps working it into agility, which is something I think should be of more use to the lighter armored style that bow and dagger users should be more apt to use. But then again, I do feel that agility needs a bit of tweaking in general, including granting armor bonuses based off of armor used rather than just… a flat bonus.

But that’s just my opinion.

Basically all you have to do to balance the game is to double the projectile speed for bows.

This is a direct buff to archery and an indirect buff to shield/1h weapons and a nerf to 2hand weapons.

As it stands, i’m sure spears still dominate in PvP. That’s because mobility+reach are too strong and there’s nothing to punish them if they’re out in the open.

Buff shields and make it more like dark souls, give them a wider angle to block attacks, too often spears just poke past them, but also make it so that blocking causes you to lose stamina. Make it so that you can slowly regain stamina with your shield up, but to get the normal rate of increase you have to drop the guard.

2hand weapons should give the user reach and power but make the vulnerable to being parried or shot from a distance

The developers for this game are terrible; all they have to do is look at how other (better) games set up their combat systems and copy that.

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A bit off topic, but you say these two things in one post. But the first statement makes me question your expertise on the second. I’m sorry but my own experiences in PVP don’t make spears to be dominating in PVP. The one time I was beaten by spears (plural) was in a 3v1, and that was a very close fight. I was also heavily invested in ENC at the time and did not have my typical 40/40 STR/VIT build.

I used spears as an example in my first posts simply because it was a two-handed weapon that was simple to use. I’m hoping you all aren’t latching on to that thinking its because they are actually great in PVP. This isn’t to say they are bad weapons, as every weapon has its niche. But I don’t subscribe to the idea that they are on a dominating level.

Archery received love on test live, go check it out.

Do you have anything specific? I didn’t see anything last I tried it about 2 weeks ago.

There is a community newsletter, lol.

Via Testlive patch notes, just a minor tweak sounds like.

That was the December 10th patch, those changes have been on live for almost 2 months now.