Outage revealed we don't own the content we buy

jmk1999 · 2023-06-26T13:22:47.944Z

I didn’t run into the outage issues, as I play on PlayStation and I believe it was PC only, but I think we all already knew this. The live services hiccup on the regular and we’re constantly having to restart the game to reconnect it.

dinadan95350 · 2023-06-26T13:23:04.511Z

Thanks for the solid info regarding the EULA.

That said, there is a clear difference in behavior between …

the base game and DLCs
the BP/Bz

It matters far more what the actual behavior is than the boilerplate EULA. The fact is that these two categories of content are not nearly the same. The idea that some very high level legalese makes them the same, and justifies the behavior as just and equal ignores the facts on the ground. The latter is reprehensible.

dinadan95350 · 2023-06-26T13:28:13.698Z

I might also add that I wanted to address Funcom directly with my concern, but their online UX actually steered me here instead of any direct communication. So if this sounds like airing dirty laundry and griping – well, this is where Funcom steered me to communicate this.

erjoh · 2023-06-26T14:40:28.591Z

dinadan95350:

It matters far more what the actual behavior is than the boilerplate EULA. The fact is that these two categories of content are not nearly the same.

That’s because FC changed the business plan on CE. Last year it was a large controversy over it as they stopped the DLC model (because it wasn’t making mint) and introduced the BP/Bazaar method. So naturally it changed. I can sympathize with not being able to play with items that you purchased in offline environments, the heart of it is that when FC changed to “services as a product” model, CE stopped being a traditional game like Fallout or such and turned into a Fortnite/PUBG type of game. You have to be connected to play as the new model.

jmk1999 · 2023-06-26T14:45:25.446Z

erjoh:

CE stopped being a traditional game like Fallout or such and turned into a Fortnite/PUBG type of game.

Even Fallout turned into a services game.

Vimorain · 2023-06-26T15:00:46.171Z

DLCs, the original DLCs will work offline as theya re linked and checked via steam rather than funcom . the rest is indeed a daylight robbery .

Vimorain · 2023-06-26T15:02:46.680Z

help , i cannot get fallout 4 running on my new-ish pc. it crashes after like half a minute. no mods.

TyphoeZ · 2023-06-26T15:09:58.519Z

Xevyr:

No, you do not… you are merely granted a license to USE the software - a license which can be revoked unilaterally by Funcom at any point for any reason…

Yes, you do - in the EU at least. I didn’t find the exact article I read back then but here is one directive about that, also here is an article on that matter that mentions that you’re the owner of your specific copy - even if it’s a digital one.
Yes, it’s still not really possible to sell your game copy because no seller (Valve, EA, Ubisoft) is obliged to create the infrastructure for digital reselling, but at least it’s pretty clear that your game copy isn’t just a license.
And if you want to dive deeper into all of this, this post provides links for further research.
Sooo Funcom isn’t on solid ground for denying EU citizens our access to things we paid for, in my opinion (I’m not a lawyer though)

dinadan95350:

I might also add that I wanted to address Funcom directly with my concern, but their online UX actually steered me here instead of any direct communication.

contact@funcom.com, don’t expect an answer though, I tried to get a statement out of them when they revealed the bazaar. Funcom will probably just ignore you.

Xevyr · 2023-06-26T15:11:17.717Z

dinadan95350:

That said, there is a clear difference in behavior between …

Vimorain:

DLCs, the original DLCs will work offline as theya re linked and checked via steam rather than funcom .

I’m aware I made several posts about it back when they introduced it… Here’s one for example

Request: make BP and BLB items useable Offline Feedback

I also doubt it’s related, seeing as this is a completely deliberate “Feature” Funcom implemented Basically whenever you try to use anything from BP / Bazaar, an online query is made via Funcom Live Services to see if your account is “entitled” to use the item in question… if not, you get the message. Pretty much overly-protective DRM… nothing more… I did mention in a post in the past that I also think they should revise this decision. While the usefulness is understandable…

As for the EULA part… the EULA is also aware that these are separate as they mention the item shop separately where you especially don’t own anything lol

CodeMage · 2023-06-26T15:26:09.478Z

dinadan95350:

Point being …

The DLCs have Steam keys verified by Steam.

The Battle Pass and Bazaar content do not seem to be keyed via Steam licenses. They seem to be keyed remotely via the Funcom live services.

Happy to be corrected if wrong.

You’re not wrong at all. When Funcom introduced the new monetization – Battle Pass and Black Lotus Bazaar – this was one of the things a lot of us complained about.

Nemisis:

Wait, so content we pay for in the bazaar or unlock in the battle pass, we cannot access it if we play in offline mode at all??

If you play in offline mode, we can’t. But let’s see if we all understand what “offline mode” means:

Nemisis:

So, down the road when Funcom decides to not host official servers, all the money people have spent on the bazaar and battle passes will be lost and unusable

Yeah, okay, looks like we don’t understand what “offline mode” means.

Funcom Live Services is not about official servers at all. You need access to FLS for private servers and co-op too. In fact, I’m pretty sure Dune will also use FLS, so it’s not even Conan-specific. If you want to know how Conan Exiles, FLS, and Steam work together, I wrote a silly, slightly simplified explanation in another thread.

The game will go into offline mode when it can’t validate your Steam user and/or cannot find the associated Funcom ID. This means that to go into offline mode, you need to either switch your Steam into offline mode or have no connection to Funcom Live Services. (Or, as it has been happening over the weekend, the connection between FLS and Steam has to fail.)

TL;DR: No, you won’t lose the money you spent on BP and BLB if Funcom decides to stop hosting official servers. You will lose it if they decide to discontinue FLS.

dinadan95350:

Hasn’t there been enough uproar over “always online” solo gameplay? This is very basic customer/market 101 at this point. Are publishers like Funcom really not listening?

Of course they aren’t. The whole industry isn’t listening. Hell, we’re talking about more than just video games. Quick question: when was the last time you listened to music you downloaded onto your hard drive, without any connection to the Internet? Or watched a movie like that?

Sure, some services will still try to let you listen to your favorite music while you’re offline, because they know connectivity problems happen and they cache the songs on your hard drive, but they don’t let you actually download and back up the music. You don’t own anything digital.

Pardon my language, but it sucks donkey balls. And yet, here we are. Being fuсked by all digital content gatekeepers out there, and no change on the horizon.

dinadan95350 · 2023-06-26T15:38:55.598Z

Nice rant. Factually solid, etc.

That said, you missed the punchline. The punchline is that … when we see Bethesda scorn these principles, it really is all over. Is Bethesda scorning these principles? Yes, but … I would not agree that these things are examples of that …

Fallout 76. Wanna make an MMO and sell it as an MMO? Fine.
Elder Scrolls Online. Wanna make an MMO and sell it as an MMO? Fine.
Creation Club. Wanna sell DLC a la carte? Fine. (I’ve never seen any sign these licenses “phone home” for validation.)

But …

Mislead us re: 76 by promising moddability, when it actually looks like the end of the road for moddability? Bait and switch. Bad. (No, client-side UI mods don’t count.)
Rumor: Bethesda is angling for a Minecratft-like store for its solo games where creators can get paid. Fine, but are they really doing that so creators get paid? NO. They’re doing it for their percentage of each sale. Otherwise they’d leave us to the Patreon-driven economy. IF the new store rumors are true, they’re going to price me out of my 2000 mod Skyrim build and my 1000 mod Fallout 4 build. So no, they’re not aiming to be helpful.

SpherisCore · 2023-06-26T15:47:39.171Z

TLDR with a shortcut:

Humanity was a mistake

CodeMage · 2023-06-26T15:51:52.956Z

dinadan95350:

That said, you missed the punchline. The punchline is that … when we see Bethesda scorn these principles, it really is all over.

Not only did I miss the punchline, I still don’t get the punchline. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but it sounds like you had some idea that Bethesda is “the last good guy” or something like that, and that “even Bethesda” is doing bad stuff.

If that’s your angle, then I’m totally baffled. We’re talking about Bethesda here, the muffin fluffers who paved the way for all of this bullshіt in the first place, with their Horse Armor DLC. Are we really looking at these guys as our last bastion of hope?

dinadan95350 · 2023-06-26T19:12:05.458Z

Yes, actually. Maybe you haven’t looked at the Nexus lately.

Cynicism is all well and good, until it’s just for the sake of cynicism.

CodeMage · 2023-06-26T19:50:33.173Z

dinadan95350:

Maybe you haven’t looked at the Nexus lately.

I was under the impression that Nexus was a modding community, one that encompasses more than Bethesda’s games. Maybe I’m just dense, but I fail to see what it has to do with digital content ownership and monetization.

dinadan95350:

Cynicism is all well and good, until it’s just for the sake of cynicism.

I’ll stop being cynical when I’m not right to be cynical anymore

The game industry has been diligently reinforcing my cynicism, with very few exceptions.

Agnusthemagi · 2023-06-26T20:30:39.648Z

I think they misunderstood what I said about skyrim, when I said modded skyrim I meant not to exclude bethesda from the custerf***. I meant literally that, just modded skyrim. I have no hope for anything future coming from bethesda. Look up the new survival games on steam, hopefully they will stay away from the aways online cult.

Nemisis · 2023-06-26T20:48:52.816Z

CodeMage:

TL;DR: No, you won’t lose the money you spent on BP and BLB if Funcom decides to stop hosting official servers. You will lose it if they decide to discontinue FLS.

That’s a better way of saying what I meant. When I said about Funcom shutting officials down, I meant the time when they 100% shut down the game from their end which would be FLS as well, although if they use that for Dune like you suggest they may, they likely won’t shut that down for many many years. (Hopefully)

Taemien · 2023-06-26T21:07:38.971Z

This thread is nearly 25 years too late

If you guys are just now realizing this, you might want to get one of your children or sibling’s children to explain how this all works.

I’m not saying its right, but my complaints about it were voiced decades ago and it changed nothing, its now an integral part of how video games are and it won’t change now. If you want to own your games. Go to your local retro shop and buy a NES. That way you have a way to play stuff you physically own.

LostBrythunian · 2023-06-27T03:06:15.704Z

This one is amused that others are finally understanding how disgusted this one was when the new stuff was all locked behind connecting to Funcom Live Services and Funcom foot shuffled that it would be too complicated for the player of they created a Funcom account it could all be tied to.

Unfortunate.
But welcome to the situation that was promised with the EULA.

system · 2023-07-04T03:07:13.130Z

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