Except that you can? I have hundreds of them saved up.
No, we have very different definitions of what constitutes a feeling, opinion, or fact, it seems. The way I read the OP is that it is an opinion based on very strong feelings. Feelings I happen to share, but in no way would I put forward as a fact. Instead Iâd argue and say, âyeah, it sucks, itâs a lousy monetization model, and I agree that it sucksâ.
I think a more productive conversation would be to ask the OP what would make them feel less scammed. Even if one doesnât agree with their response, at least one gathers context for what might work as common ground improvements.
Lol you are taking my words out of context and ignoring entire phrases. Please re-read and requote my entire sentence and correct me if what I said was wrong.
Ok, I re-read and said âwithâ instead of âwithoutâ. Correcting now.
Sorry. I still donât get. What I get from that sentence is that you think you canât save up your daily patron cache keys (âa daily cache key that I canât saveâ), so you have to immediately use them on caches (âand immediately turn into something tangible with gambingâ, assuming you meant to say âgamblingâ). Please clarify if thatâs not what you meant.
Thanks for answer. I read carefully what I bought before I bought, so I knew about the keys. But it is different to read something and learn what it means in practice. It shocked me when I learned that Occult defense is considered a scenario and I can repeat it 3 times only. I also know I can buy keys with mof, of course this is very similar in every âfree to playâ games.
This is where to torturing begins. Because you have to grind before you are allowed to do something you want to do. This is the âfree to playâ model: you have to torture free players until they pay. The problem is, I paid alredy and I am still tortured. This is when I say no thanks!
It is a shame, because otherwise I enjoyed the story and I willingly spent a lot of money.
Just by completing three scenarios youâll already be 3/5 of the way through basic challenges (3 main missions, 50 kills, 4 empowerments) and have earned enough MoF for two more OD chests plus some change (3600 as patron). Completing any three side missions will complete your basic dailies and net you another 3600. Thatâs seven âfreeâ scenarios every day and the only thing youâd have to go out of your way for are the three sides.
In an ESO sub, I would get gold coins (or something) with which I can purchase different items in the ESO store directly. Itâs similar to the coins we used to receive in TSW, or maybe aurum in SWL.
With the SWL sub, thereâs no option for a direct, consistent conversion of the subscription stipend. It is a random loot cache key. There is no way to have a fixed mindset of âif I save up X months, I can obtain Y itemâ. It is always variable. I can hope I get some loot to sell, but even then I have to play the variable exchange rate game in terms of loot value and the aurum market.
Thank you, that clarifies the âsavingâ part for me.
I personally feel anything less then infinite key is a scam (for subscribers). Or at least it is a model what I am not going to support.
I perfectly understand the âfree to playâ model. A couple of players have to pay all the expenses. So every players who can afford and wants to keep the game alive should spend some money in the item shop every months. Obviously Funcom have to offer something worth buying. Also they have to lead free players toward spending some money.
Grasp all lose all. If things are too expensive, player might feel like it doesnât worth paying at all. Not even a single coin. Paying 20 dollars for item upgrade? I donât know, maybe. Paying dollar for each and every dungeons? What? Are they out of their mind? Of couse NO!
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There are different ways of looking at it really.
I think the big difference that you have to take into consideration is about size and scale. TSWâs problem with the free points which you got as a subscriber was the lack of stuff to buy. You could quite easily grab everything available in the shop and have plenty left over for new releases. From the playerâs perspective, that was great, but it sure didnât help Funcom out. ESO gets loads of content developed for it, and are able to charge for access to it. Thereâs a continual stream of new cosmetics coming out to help people spend tokens. SWL just doesnât have that same rate of development, (though we all wish it did,) so itâd just end up with people building up a massive stash of tokens (which is what happens already with MoF). Using the keys to help drain that currency is an important part of the game (which arguably doesnât drain MoF enough for many people, leading to price inflation on the AH).
The way that dungeon rewards work in the two games is also not really parallel. You can grind dungeons all day in ESO, and will only obtain 2 dauntless tokens that you want to advance your gear. Paying increases that to 4, but thatâs the only real advance to your gear each day (and you need weeks worth of tokens to actually get an upgrade). SWLâs system means that you are able to obtain upgrades with a much shorter period of playtime. Itâs strung out by making the amount you upgrade into tiny increments, but both aim to achieve the same thing - you logging in repeatedly.
SWLâs free to play accounts are in a much better state than in ESO. In ESO being free to play actually makes life harder (because having no crafting mats bag is painful!). F2P in SWL makes you adjust for some things, like longer cds on which lairs you do, but thereâs nothing major that really sucks about it.
Is SWL Patron status a paywall like ESO? Nowhere even close. The amount of time you need to have subscribed to ESO to buy all the updates using tokens is pretty crazy. If you want to get the best gear for your characters there, you must run DLC content. SWL F2P characters can advance just as far as patrons.
Ultimately, Iâd say that if you donât think that patron status in SWL isnât worth the money, try unsubscribing and playing as F2P for a few months. If you still feel the same way, then fair enough.
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I played this game since nearly the start (SWL that is) and even on F2P I found I run out of time more than out of keys. Sure if I singled out one specific activity I would run out of keys for it fast (for example dungeon keys) but than I would have other keys go to waste. I thing it was never the intention to not spread yourself out between activities and even when you get enough MoF daily for a decent amount of extra runs.
Is patron a scam? No, itâs convinience mostly that ALSO provides progression through free cache keys. Patron I would call the best deal in the game by a longshot. As for Occult Defense: Be aware that rewards get better with the amount of waves and the wavenumber. So if you want to run it on a tight budget I would say run the three with someone higher than you and let yourself get pulled to wave tenâŠwave 1-10 is like 35 minutes or so times 3 keys you already have more then one and a half hour spend every day. Three dungeon runs on top of that, maybe a lair, Dark agartha and getting AP/SP back or general mission running to finish up actives and passives and you easily have a daily routine of 4-5 hours, if you aim for achievements&museum maybe more.
SryâŠI rambled a little but point Iâm trying to make is: You can easily play the game on a 0 budget and patron is the a great deal even if you feel like it. MoF sinks still exist but you get more mof and spend less with patron and will in general have an easier time for a pricetag that is like 2 workhours a month.
P.S.:Just thought that it might be good to add that I do own some aurum cosmetics and stuff. All bought with ingame currency. So while aurum is the main âpremium currencyâ thank to the exchange you can still get byâŠit is just waaaaay slower. But that is the f2p trade of for being a leech 
I wonder how many patron subscribers there are.
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Itâd be interesting to be able to find out, but I doubt FC would share that information. 
Bit like weâve no idea how many players there are, how much aurum gets bought and sold or all sorts of interesting metrics.
You could spend a day defensively targetting every character you come across in Agartha and checking the color of the window border. That might give you a very rough estimate of the percentage of patrons. Though you still wouldnât know how many of those are actually paying and how many are old Grandmasters.
Itâs not a paywall if you donât HAVE to use really money. You can get mof for free from dailies. Thatâs no wall.
Plus can sell anything you get from bags, chests, and other.
FWIW I missed the grandmaster boat in TSW and choose to subscribe frequently, though not all the time. Whenever I login and see Iâve dropped patron status I ask myself, âwhat do I need patron for?â and if I canât answer I skip it until something comes up.
For me, dungeon and scenario keys have never been a reason to re-up. If I need to run multiple dungeons or scenarios in a day I just take the hit to MoF. Lairs, regionals and MBs pointedly donât have any method for getting more keys other than shell out 1000 MoF at a time, yet theyâre the group content I end up doing the most. Itâs fine, I run the dailies every day to save up MoF for the stuff I like to do, and Iâve never not done an activity because I looked at my MoF and said, âI donât want to spend that/I canât afford it.â
SWLâs far from a perfect system but easily one of the least onerous F2P ones out there. None of the gameâs story or gameplay functions are locked behind $20 or $50 charge for an expansion. You can easily earn 20 dungeon keys worth of MoF per day, if all you want to do is run dungeons. SWOTR makes you pay for action bars and has purposely complicated bundles for paid stuff, BSO locks all their best clothing and money-grinding items behind real money. While you can run dungeons 24 hours a day if you want in FFXIV and WoW you also have to pay $15 every month, no matter what.
You donât have to pay anything to enjoy everything SWL has to offer. You donât even have to pay anything to get access to the best weapons and gear, aside from putting in the time to save up MoF. Again, the system is far from perfect. I wonât defend the limited key arrangement as being good for the player. But the company has to make its money somewhere, and the F2P model demands there be friction in the economy somewhere.
I think SWL would benefit from running event weekends again. Specifically, every time there was a free key weekend people mentioned how they finally felt free to enjoy running dungeons as much as they want without worrying about key limits. I think Valentines showed that people will definitely come back when there is something fun to do, so why not keep putting in low-effort fun things to do?
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I think you forgot to switch dollar with MoF.
I can add my 5 cents there. I ever got patron only during events because I see its main value in 8h cd for missions. Additional keys are bonus that I almost never used, not really a fan of scenarios and itâs been ages since I had someone to run multiple dungeons with. Also your math is off, you can do multiple waves of OD, can be hour long for single key - on higher ip levels. Also single S&P is still 12-15min. Not 12 min for three.
(and maybe we play different ESOs but you donât get unlimited inventory for subscription, itâs only unlimited for mats, so you get way more space for all kind of trash; also I played without one for 2+ years and saw no problem, I find more convenient for myself to just buy DLCs)
I kind of get wish to do unlimited single activity but also not really. Iâd say itâs devs way to say this game isnât about this activity when you need to pay to do it. Missions are always free. Though you also canât repeat single one.
As far as running OD, Iâd also say âkeys cost a lot if you run fewer wavesâ is just part of how they encourage not running the single hardest wave you have access to over and over all day, without preventing people from spending their keys fast. If you want to spend more than 10 minutes in OD, either you do more waves per run (and get more loot at the same key cost) or you pay more Marks.
TLDR; A new player started playing the game, loves the game, wants to spend money, but is turned off and quits because of monetization. This is problematic.
(and SWL sub value is incredibly sad compared to ESO)
Perhaps OP would have gotten a more constructive response without using the word âscamâ, as that is harsh - âripoffâ might be more accurate-, but it is quite obvious from OPs post that he is very disappointed and frustrated after falling in love with a game, spending money on a sub and other things, and finding that he is still gated from content.
In this, I can relate and understand OP. I LOVE the story and atmosphere of this game, wishing it a lot more success than it received. I want to spend money on it. However, the monotization in this game is atrocious. I play on and off, and usually sub when I do, but everytime I feel that the game does not value my subscription at all, and has an insatiable lust for more spending. Thatâs fine, I can still spend more, until i see the prices on in-game purchases, which are stupid expensive.
So my natural reaction: donât spend money. Even though I want to. It just feels like a ripoff.
I also think it is worthwhile to separate between veteran players and new/casual players.
As being of the latter category, I disagree with the notion that anything costing MOF is âfreeâ or âsuper easy to get doing daily challengesâ. Forcing a player to âgrindâ and do monotonous gameplay the donât want, to be able to do what they really want, is strange design if you want players to stick around. And since you can buy MOF for Aurum, the game again incentivises the players who do not want to grind to spend money.
For those who play a lot and have high level characters, this might not seem like an issue.
However, take myself for example. If I have 1 hour to play, I detest having to spend 15-20 minutes to grind the daily challenges tier1. I can manage 2-3 waves of OD. Even with patron, those 3 keys are spent quickly.
The important point is this; a new player started playing the game, loves the game, wants to spend money, but is turned off and quits because of monetization.
I have many times wondered how many players this game would have had with a reasonable monetization. This is clearly not the only problem the game faces, but personally I have never seen such a greedy model in any game (not saying it doesnât exist).
For a game that struggles with retaining new players, I find this puzzling.
P.S. Iâve seen someone mention ESO in this thread. Without going into what you get as F2P player in the games, the value you get for a SWL sub is pathetic compared to what ESO sub gives. ESO sub is WAY better, and is generally appreciated as one of the most generous subscription models in the industry. SWL exists in the other end of the spectrum. (Iâm not saying âdonât subâ, cause I do it myself)
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