Turmoil is not generating multiples of 8


#1

I felt like my Chaos wasn’t generating as many Paradoxes as expected and did a couple of parses. I never saw anything close to the 30% claimed in the Chaos specialty.

Not sure how useful it is to just paste entire logs, but my numbers were
38/216 (17.6%) - with my normal build
17/99 (17.2%) - without passives to see if that mattered
22/177 (12.4%) - without any of my gear on, fresh green Chaos Focus from the AH

The only explanation I can come up with is that whatever fix was applied for Crits has broken it for Turmoil - the first parse had 58 crits, so 30% of 58 and 12.5% of 158 = 37.5

For comparison, Deconstruct appears to be working correctly. I parsed out 140/483 (29%).
Distortion was slow due to waiting for energy, but 25/98 (25.5%)


#2

What did you parse against? Training Sims in agartha?


#3

Yes, Anima-Sim: Dungeon.


#4

I’m not a strong theory crafter, but since Turmoil is an AoE, i would expect to see less paradox gen, compared to a single target ability. At least i would assume there is a multi target penalty to the paradox gen


#5

I never parsed it, but it always felt like Turmoil was bad at generating paradoxes. So it may not have been broken, but rather not fixed, or something else causes it.


#6

I would assume you see a greater generation rate if you take turmoil to a multi target fight, rather than a single target one.

If against 1 target you have 17% chance with Turmoil. Statistically wouldn’t you in a fight against 6 targets, generate a paradox per ability activation (no paradox from 5 of the targets, 1 paradox from the 6th target).


#7

Did confirm Schism’s got the same thing (17/111, 15%) So maybe it is related to being AoEs.

The problem with that is, Turmoil is the single target tanking basic. It gets used up to 3/4 of your casts… on single targets. So if you tank with chaos you’re missing out on a lot of paradoxes by using the intended ability.

I went and killed 157 zombies near Boone with Turmoil and got the same 17%.


#8

17% of the ability activations, or 17% of the hits?

Also i agree it is an issue for tanks, and it could maybe be worth it to look into an exception for at least Turmoil.


#9

I’ll run some tests tomorrow and see if I notice anything unusual.


#10

17% of hits, can’t parse out how many of ability activations got paradoxes cause they’re not logged.


#11

That should be the same then. 17% of hits would gen a paradox, but if you look per ability activation then it should be higher on multi targets, than on a single target. If my sleep deprived brain havent gone to bed ahead of me, i think in a multi target fight (assuming 6 enemies) you would generate paradoxes faster.

17% per activation ~ 1 paradox per activation (6 targets)

While a single target ability at 30% per activation, against a single target

30% per activation ~ 1 paradox per 3 activations

… But still, since main chaos tanks are forced to use Turmoil … possibly fair to suggest it being altered a little?


#12

Went and manually killed some zombies and reset my paradoxes every time I generated any so I could record them accurately.

52 total swings on 4 targets each - 21* 0, 9* 2, 14* 3, 8* 4 paradoxes generated

Whereas if it’s 17%, it should be 47% chance to get 0, actually saw 40%. (just small numbers)

It definitely never generated paradoxes from multiple targets at once, so e.v. is not that high. Assuming 17% was accurate, then it would be
1: 17%, 2: 31%, 3: 43%, 4: 53%, 5: 61%, 6: 67%


Since it seems fair to compare, shotgun gimmick has 0 penalty for using multi-target attacks (they still use 1 shell each and always apply their effect)

Hammer’s model is 5 rage for single target basic, 2 rage/target for aoe basic, 18 rage for 3 energy.

For a typical tank rotation, assume energy weapons, 30% crit and 4 energy/3 seconds used on cooldowns per 20 seconds. Then the rest of those 20 seconds = 16 energy from refill, 5 from crit, for 21 total. -> ~8 power moves, 9 basics.

Then the hammer, by using an aoe on single target, is losing 27 rage per 20 seconds. Chaos is losing 3.5 paradoxes. Out of a baseline of roughly 150 rage and 15 paradoxes.

I guess it mostly feels worse for Chaos because there’s the possibility of getting extra damage, whereas hammers are just refreshing every 8 seconds instead of 7.


#13

I ran a series of experiments to test the hypothesis that Turmoil procs Paradoxes at a rate below 30%. In all tests, I logged 500 hits using the Warped Visage with no Paradox-generating passives or effects. Here are the results:

Ability Target # Paradox # out of 500 %
Deconstruct 1 148 29.6%
Turmoil 1 80 16%
Turmoil 2 137 27.4%
Turmoil 4 232 46.4%

It’s clear that Turmoil’s reduced rate can be explained by the number of targets it has hit. The Paradox generation rate becomes close to normal once Turmoil hits two targets and exceeds the norm at three or more targets.


#14

Okay so im not completely insane xD thanks

Hammer is a better compare than Shotty i would say, where as you said there is a multi target penalty to generating “resources”. For shotty you spend resources i suppose, and the main penalty is in damage and proc penalties (assumign they are still in for shotty?) This in a way also affects the bonus from shells if they are based on your base damage with an ability.

Its hard to compare across weapons though, at least im not familiar enough with them all. All i know is Turmoil wins in a multi target fight, Deconstruct in a single, and tanks don’t have the option to choose. That lack fo choice goes for shotty and hammer too of cause.

Now if we get a fix to the bug where we get no chaos effect at 8 paradoxes if we have no target (happening with AoEs) that would help a little =P. Not to mentoin Ankh 6 and his ability to confuse clones and ignore certain abilities.