Unknown build limit?

Sure, the technique was not intentionally designed. That makes it either emergent gameplay or an exploit. The difference between emergent gameplay and exploit is literally Funcom’s word. If Funcom calls it an exploit, it’s an exploit.

So far, what I’ve seen is a confirmation that stacking fences in depth is an exploit, not that placing them close together is.

No, it’s not the players’ fault that those things are possible, it’s their fault for choosing to abuse them. It’s as simple as that.

It’s possible to wound or kill someone with a kitchen knife, but it’s your choice to do it and nobody will buy the argument that it’s not your fault, not for one second.

Again, I’m not about to agree that we should give up the ability to use advanced building techniques just because other people abuse them. Nobody’s forcing anyone to abuse the game mechanics, it’s choice. If you choose to abuse the mechanics, you get banned for it.

No, it’s not. I mean, I get it, it’s clever to say that, because I didn’t explicitly write “one group of players” every time I wrote that phrase, but it’s the Tyler Durden kind of “clever” :wink:

Do we? Because from where I stand, it looks like Funcom’s stance is that if you stack fence foundations as a defensive technique on a PVP server, it doesn’t matter how much you do it, you’re breaking the rules.

The argument that I’ve been making is that eliminating the building technique that allows you to stack fence foundations will also eliminate the possibility of placing certain things in proximity to each other for decorative purposes in a PVE build. In other words, it would eliminate the use of that technique that doesn’t break the rules, in order to prevent people from choosing to abuse that technique.

Now, should Funcom communicate better about these things? Yep. Should they include more information and transparency in their bans? Yep.

Should they get rid of advanced building techniques that some people abuse by choice? Hell no.

I sincerely doubt that. Given the way PVP players specifically keep coming to complain about bans – and given how often it turns out that they were stacking foundations – I’m more inclined to believe that if 2 people use the fence trick, both will get banned.

Sure, and one way to stop having problems with varicose veins in your legs is to amputate them. Doesn’t mean that’s the solution we should be asking for. :man_shrugging:

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There is - to some extent. As I understand it, in the early days of the game placeables could be placed much closer together than they can now. But players found that they could use this to deliberately gain advantage by lagging out the server in carefully planned ways. As a result, we now cannot place (eg) a cluster of candles together (and the DLC ‘chess set’ is almost impossible to set up properly without mods, because the ‘exclusion zone’ around the pieces is slightly larger than the squares on the board). Arguably, such decorative points are relatively minor - but they illustrate why they can’t just add further placement restrictions to prevent people deliberately piling torches together to create lag - if they do, then it means we wind up forced to space things ever further. Instead they make it clear through the ToS that doing these things is a problem - that way they don’t have to wreck elements of the game for everyone, just because a small number of players choose to abuse corner uses of the build systems.

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Not when the changes are dealing with official rules on official servers.

If they dont wish to change/fix the game because it might affect non official players, then simply remove that from the rules. Easy solution that hurts no one.

Yes

If we are to stay within the rules of Funcom, an exploit is an exploit. I think we agree. To say that it benefits one group (PVE) while harming another (PVP), I think its wrong. Rules are rules (as much as we can debate and disagree with them) and need to be followed or you face penalty. This is also why its so extremely hard to balance PVP and PVE in the same game.

Couldnt agree more that it needs to be fixed properly. But then dont ban PVP players for using the system and let PVE player away with it because they build nicer things.

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Except that the PvP players in question aren’t using the system. They are abusing the system.

A PvE player, (at least the ones were generally referring to here) will use these tricks to build a nice looking staircase or something, but still end up using far less pieces than the PvP player does. The PvP player uses these tricks to build an incredibly dense wall with the vast majority of pieces providing zero aesthetic value because they are completely hidden and use five times as many pieces doing it.

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An exploit is what Funcom says exploit is, no more, no less. And here’s what Funcom says an exploit is, with added emphasis by yours truly:

Now, unless Funcom explicitly says that the building technique itself – as opposed to stacking the foundations using that technique – is an exploit, you might have to explain how using this technique for decorative purposes creates a detrimental play experience and conveys an unfair advantage over other players.

Of course, using it in excess, even for decorative purposes, might cause a significant performance degradation, in which case it already falls under the following rule:

In short, we have the same situation here as always: people who break the rules are refusing to take responsibility for their choice and ignoring repeated explanations of how they broke the rules.

@HEREX was right about beating the dead horse, it seems to never get old with you guys.

Exactly. But good luck convincing people to take responsibility for their own choices.

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Why? Its their servers. They can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. That last one you simply need to accept.

I would like to see a list which items makes problems.
I reconized this by myself on torches and statues.
Once I had a server and someone placed a army of hundreds Conan statues. The small one. So it was on maybe 4x4 foundations. Accessing this area makes horrible lag and sometimes bluescreen on my ps4 or the whole server is gone and I had to ask g portal for restart because I don’t have the control via Webinterface to do a restart anymore at this time.

Also I think there is a big difference to empty benches and benches full of items.
I don’t mean that lag when you are so near by so the preview is popping up.
Once I moved some chests to a different place in my base. So for a short time I placed most of the stuff in all benches I had. While it was in benches my whole base was lagging. After putting it back to chests the lag was gone.
I never test this again so I can’t really say that nobody else makes something memory intensive on the server at the same time. But it seems to me that benches has a much bigger preloading distance then chests. Maybe because they check what’s in crafting process?

If we know what actions or items are memory intensive we could do it another not memory intensive way or be careful with this stuff.

As an admin on a private i was able to see the current memory usage of my server. But as a not admin on ps4 i don’t have a chance to see what’s going on. I only have a lag that tolds me something could be memoryintensive.

I reconized for myself that 20k or 30k structure pieces are not really a problem. But if I start decorate and light up this structure with 500-1000 placables it starts to lag.

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Me too. And I would also like to know which items are more likely to impact server performance vs. which ones are more likely to impact client performance. Right now I can only make an educated guess, but that’s nowhere near the same as knowing what the devs say.

That would be a good start, at least. It would be much better to have some sort of in-game indicator of the complexity of my base, kinda like Little Big Planet had that “thermometer” that limited how much complexity you could build into your level.

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That would be helpful. Very helpful in fact.

It would be useful also when someone(s) tries to say: “I didn’t know that”, “No one told me that” , specifics really help to lift the veil (feigned ignorance) that some like to use to protect their bad behavior.

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So as a pvp player 8 can’t use the fence stack at all, even if I build a stair case. I am literally forced to only build borg honeycomb boxes. Thus removing a gameplay style? That is what I am hearing. I personally use honey wedge builds. But occasionally I like to build a cool look to it. But based on me playing pvp, I can’t.

There is a different to the amount of stacking required to build a staircase and the amount used to artificially add HP to walls .

The HP (health points or hit points) of the defensive structures of this game need increased to be competitive with the time ratio of the attacking items used to destroy them. Simply put again it takes far longer to build in this game than to destroy, still (ongoing) .

So what if someone has an “acceptable” base build according to the paramiters set in the ToS as it apears from the outside but on the inside they are doing something ( excess placeables) which impact server performance? How can they be reported for abuse if its contained in an acceptable build without actual proof of being inside their base to see and document the offense? Just because their build looks acceptable on the outside doesnt mean theres not a ToS infractions on the inside, you just cant get inside to prove it. A video showing a lowered performance while near the structure is about all you can do but thats still not exactly 100% difinitive proof that player(s) are doing something that would be a ToS infraction.

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The problem with this is good pvp builders and base defenders can defend a base forever by sitting behind the wall and hitting it with a repair hammer, thats easy enough to do. Especially if using gateframes with a drawbridge which increases the hp of the gate and foumdies to somewhere lime 200k hp. Easy turtle right there. At least with fence stacking it was more difficult to repair that damage as you could not reach the outer most fence stacks to repair, they were there for a buffer, which is why i personally stopped using them. Its much easier to repair a drawbridge setup.

I don’t know. What does it look like? Does it clearly give you an unfair advantage over other players? Does it significantly degrade performance?

No offense, but it sounds like you’re hearing what you prefer. This straw-manning of other people’s arguments happens way too often in these discussions and it’s extremely frustrating.

I mean, what people like me have been saying here is that you shouldn’t abuse the building technique that allows you that “cool look”. And we’re saying that because we don’t want the whole technique – which you like, too – removed because those who abuse it don’t want to take responsibility for that abuse, and instead ask for the removal of it.

Kinda sounds like we should be on the same “side” here. You and I don’t want the technique removed, but Funcom doesn’t want it abused.

To me, these two wishes sound perfectly compatible. You want to build something that looks cool but doesn’t screw up the performance? Awesome, go ahead. You want to abuse the technique to build a more dense base? Don’t.

As simple as that, but no, let’s just ask for the whole thing to be removed, because why should people be allowed to build nice things if other people aren’t allowed to abuse the building system? :roll_eyes:

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Not forever that is not true at all.

You had to fall back from a good defensive position is all.

Now that you have fallen back having forced them to expend resources repairing, you wait for them later to farm for more and prevent that as much as you can by killing them while they are outside the base. If they are dead they drop their stuff and you take it away. This is also part of seiging which is what you are doing if you are attacking someone’s base. You are starving them out of resources and forcing them out of their base to gather more.

Who ever said that you should always be able to break a well built base in one or two raids ??

Unfortunately we don’t know how simple it really would be on Funcom’s side to fix.

Prevention often times is better than cure , so if you can’t do it it can’t be done. I wonder what it would take to make it so that you can retain the ability to make the beatiful things while removing the protential for abuse ? What are the numbers so to speak needed for this fix ?

Also, back to the issue of stacking , how many stacks are abuse exactly , the actual number specifically ?

You know that’s a nonsensical question, right? I mean, if it wasn’t someone like you, someone who hasn’t spent as long on these forums as you have, someone who hasn’t been in so many of these discussions, I would cut them some slack, but you should know better by now.

If we’re talking about performance concerns, it’s not a flat number and it never will be. And I have no intention or desire to repeat the whole explanation why yet again, for someone’s amusement.

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This rightt here. What stops a player from putting “normal” looking wall and then layering the inside with fence stacks? If the admins are only going on reports, then one could coat thier exploit in a way to not show it.

If it takes all of Raid to get into your outer wall, and by the time I’m up to your fenceline your domicile looks like a 99-layer lasagna, that’s a paddlin’. Signed, sealed and video-ed.

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What would stop me, if I played on PVP, was the possibility of getting banned because someone went to attack my base, breached the normal wall, saw the stacks, took screenshots, and then reported me.

The admins are “only going on reports” in the sense that if you don’t get reported, they might not investigate, not that they won’t investigate if you get reported. Granted, if you get reported without evidence that indicates rule-breaking, they might choose to ignore that report, but do you really want to bet your access to official servers on that particular “maybe”?

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