Unknown build limit?

Thank you for making these points.
We can utilize symantic wordplay all day long but even placing TWO fences back to back WOULD constitute " stacking" as outlined in the ToS. If FC didnt want it in the game they never would have tried to get rid of the practice in the past, which if im not mistaken, they have, and failed because they tried slapping a bandaid on the issue. Instead players just found alterior ways to get the job done.
I personally dont care if it stays in the game or is removed one way or the other, from a pvp perspective if i want in someones 50 stacked base im getting in. From a server percormance issue i agree that it makes for a less enjoyable experience for everyone but whats the easiest solution outside of coding? PvPers are punished for trying to protrct their base, riches, and thralls which are above all else a time investment. Why do pvpers landclaim spam? Because we xont want a tebuchet stairing us in the face on our doorstep when we logun next. Why do pvperz fence stack? Because amassing thousands of bombs takes little time investment and we need to waste as many of the opposing teams arsenal as possible or else they will easily penetrate our security.
I know CodeMage is no fan of a build cap limiy, and i admit im not either, but on officials we need something to help us fight agaimst toxic players abusing a questionable (authoritarian) reporting system. If you dont like build limits then might i suggest private servers or offline play? No one will mess with youre PvE experience there, build away.
If we are going to be punished for building a certain way, a way which is allowable through game mechanics, then whats the point in officials? I cant build good enough to defend my base so i grt raided easily, i build a better defensed base i get dev wiped…WTF? We are in a limbo state and it should NOT leave the players in a place of paranoia as to whether some troll is going to report them and get the dev wiped…and banned to boot. I would rather build any way i want within a certain limit and be certain funcom wouldnt delete my investment than to have some arbitrary vague guess work as to how much i can build and how i can build it.

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Perhaps officials would be more populated if they were run better . Not dev wiping for some guess work on base builds, higher farm rates so players who lose all their investment could jump back in quicker. Plus this game lost a lot of pvpers back when the game was really buggy. Thrall porking was rampant for a long time and killed the game for many people, thats just one example. Private servers just offer more freedom, you can choose what suits you, i would consider them myself but they have their own issues with abusive admins and the like. Officials just need some tweeks so that players arent punished for playing the game.

The population numbers I quoted, were before devwipes.

If the population has dwindled substantially further, then we’re in the territory of discussion on whether or not officials are even feasible at this point. In which case a few devwipes are the least of your concern, but an entire shutdown.

So… did they dwindle because of devwipes? If yes, then officials are a failed cause. If not, they are sitll on life support.

Well not too sure. On xbox there are some healthy populated servera but there seems to be so many that have such a low population (under 5) that im not sure why there are so many at this point either.

No, it wouldn’t, because there’s nothing in ToS that talks about stacking. I mean, I can back all my claims with quotes of and links to Funcom’s words, and I’ve done it so far. How about you do the same?

Well I do care, very much so, and so do many other builders. So if you don’t care if it stays, either provide good reasons for your suggestion or suggest something else that would solve your problems. :man_shrugging:

If you don’t like being banned for breaking official server rules, might I suggest private servers or co-op?

Placing hundreds of torches in a small area is also allowed through game mechanics. Making buildings that spell out the n-word is also allowed through game mechanics. Encircling someone else’s base with no-climb walls on a PVE(-C) server is also allowed through game mechanics. I could go on, but I hope the point is clear.

If you actually got banned for fence foundation stacking, then there’s nothing arbitrary or vague about that.

But regardless, if the problem is “arbitrary vague guesswork”, then focus on suggestions that solve that problem. Building cap doesn’t solve that. Removing the ability to place fence foundations close together doesn’t solve that.

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All youre points are fine and good, i have no problem NOT foundation stacking because i can defend a base not having to rely on that kind of build. Im worried about how much my clan and i can build to the point of whats extreme and what isnt when it comes to salty children reporting and we may or may not get dev wiped which is the point ive been trying to get across this whole time. I could have a base thats 1000 build pieces or 10000 build pieces and both could be considered acceptable by most but thats purely subjective, i have to hope that if someone who is using the report feafure soley for spiteful purposes that funcom doesnt just delete everything based on what seems to me to be acceptable peramiters.
As far as spelling out the n- word in game using the in game build mechanics thats not exactly the same as abusing trickery to place fences closer together. Fence stacking requires a specific sequence of build piece manipulation that allows for a piece to be placed in cllser proximity than intended. If it WAS intended then the building sequence trick wojld not be required to do it. Spelling vulgar things with standard building techniques requires really no trickery, it can be done with straight forward solutions. As far as torch spam, yea thats abuse i agree, same as fireplace spam to overheat an area, but thats not the players fault that those things are possible. Why is there no " object to close to another of this type" effect? I space out my lightsources in my bases because they are intensive and make the base lag, so i think we can find common ground there but again, funcoms fault for allowing it.

Offiicals are the base game and the main place new players start the game. Officials are also the game servers that Funcom maintains that access to, also access privileges comes with purchase of the game.

Point is the Officials are the benchmark base game servers and the only one officially controlled by the developer.

SImply put modded are not the standard nor are they the benchmark of this game, officials are.

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Well said.

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But reality with the new spam / over build enforcements that is already happening. Now if one wants to fence stacking, fine, but also no one knows how much stacking is too much, which we all agree is the issue. And I believe the idea is to remove the possibility all together and then fence stacking would mean abuse of system period. Right now there is sooooo much gray area, that 2 people could use the fence trick and only 1 may get banned and one never not even know it was an exploit of the building mechanics. Again, I don’t like stealing from Paul to pay Mary, but one way to fix the rng (your favorite :wink: ) of ToS enforcement is removing the possibility to do fence stack.

There is at least one simple rule of thumb that could apply. Are you pulling all kinds of tricks with the building system, placing blocks and removing them, flipping stuff around so it clips through other pieces when it normally wouldn’t, that kind of stuff, in order to squeeze fence foundations together as tightly as possible?

If yes, then it’s too much and you are abusing the building system.

I mean, it seems kinda obvious to me. You place a foundation block and snap fence foundations to it, there you go, that’s your upper limit. No placing pieces and deleting blocks for the express purpose of getting them to snap to a slightly different position to build a wall one foundation block thick but half a dozen fences dense.

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Sure, the technique was not intentionally designed. That makes it either emergent gameplay or an exploit. The difference between emergent gameplay and exploit is literally Funcom’s word. If Funcom calls it an exploit, it’s an exploit.

So far, what I’ve seen is a confirmation that stacking fences in depth is an exploit, not that placing them close together is.

No, it’s not the players’ fault that those things are possible, it’s their fault for choosing to abuse them. It’s as simple as that.

It’s possible to wound or kill someone with a kitchen knife, but it’s your choice to do it and nobody will buy the argument that it’s not your fault, not for one second.

Again, I’m not about to agree that we should give up the ability to use advanced building techniques just because other people abuse them. Nobody’s forcing anyone to abuse the game mechanics, it’s choice. If you choose to abuse the mechanics, you get banned for it.

No, it’s not. I mean, I get it, it’s clever to say that, because I didn’t explicitly write “one group of players” every time I wrote that phrase, but it’s the Tyler Durden kind of “clever” :wink:

Do we? Because from where I stand, it looks like Funcom’s stance is that if you stack fence foundations as a defensive technique on a PVP server, it doesn’t matter how much you do it, you’re breaking the rules.

The argument that I’ve been making is that eliminating the building technique that allows you to stack fence foundations will also eliminate the possibility of placing certain things in proximity to each other for decorative purposes in a PVE build. In other words, it would eliminate the use of that technique that doesn’t break the rules, in order to prevent people from choosing to abuse that technique.

Now, should Funcom communicate better about these things? Yep. Should they include more information and transparency in their bans? Yep.

Should they get rid of advanced building techniques that some people abuse by choice? Hell no.

I sincerely doubt that. Given the way PVP players specifically keep coming to complain about bans – and given how often it turns out that they were stacking foundations – I’m more inclined to believe that if 2 people use the fence trick, both will get banned.

Sure, and one way to stop having problems with varicose veins in your legs is to amputate them. Doesn’t mean that’s the solution we should be asking for. :man_shrugging:

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There is - to some extent. As I understand it, in the early days of the game placeables could be placed much closer together than they can now. But players found that they could use this to deliberately gain advantage by lagging out the server in carefully planned ways. As a result, we now cannot place (eg) a cluster of candles together (and the DLC ‘chess set’ is almost impossible to set up properly without mods, because the ‘exclusion zone’ around the pieces is slightly larger than the squares on the board). Arguably, such decorative points are relatively minor - but they illustrate why they can’t just add further placement restrictions to prevent people deliberately piling torches together to create lag - if they do, then it means we wind up forced to space things ever further. Instead they make it clear through the ToS that doing these things is a problem - that way they don’t have to wreck elements of the game for everyone, just because a small number of players choose to abuse corner uses of the build systems.

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Not when the changes are dealing with official rules on official servers.

If they dont wish to change/fix the game because it might affect non official players, then simply remove that from the rules. Easy solution that hurts no one.

Yes

If we are to stay within the rules of Funcom, an exploit is an exploit. I think we agree. To say that it benefits one group (PVE) while harming another (PVP), I think its wrong. Rules are rules (as much as we can debate and disagree with them) and need to be followed or you face penalty. This is also why its so extremely hard to balance PVP and PVE in the same game.

Couldnt agree more that it needs to be fixed properly. But then dont ban PVP players for using the system and let PVE player away with it because they build nicer things.

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Except that the PvP players in question aren’t using the system. They are abusing the system.

A PvE player, (at least the ones were generally referring to here) will use these tricks to build a nice looking staircase or something, but still end up using far less pieces than the PvP player does. The PvP player uses these tricks to build an incredibly dense wall with the vast majority of pieces providing zero aesthetic value because they are completely hidden and use five times as many pieces doing it.

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An exploit is what Funcom says exploit is, no more, no less. And here’s what Funcom says an exploit is, with added emphasis by yours truly:

Now, unless Funcom explicitly says that the building technique itself – as opposed to stacking the foundations using that technique – is an exploit, you might have to explain how using this technique for decorative purposes creates a detrimental play experience and conveys an unfair advantage over other players.

Of course, using it in excess, even for decorative purposes, might cause a significant performance degradation, in which case it already falls under the following rule:

In short, we have the same situation here as always: people who break the rules are refusing to take responsibility for their choice and ignoring repeated explanations of how they broke the rules.

@HEREX was right about beating the dead horse, it seems to never get old with you guys.

Exactly. But good luck convincing people to take responsibility for their own choices.

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Why? Its their servers. They can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. That last one you simply need to accept.

I would like to see a list which items makes problems.
I reconized this by myself on torches and statues.
Once I had a server and someone placed a army of hundreds Conan statues. The small one. So it was on maybe 4x4 foundations. Accessing this area makes horrible lag and sometimes bluescreen on my ps4 or the whole server is gone and I had to ask g portal for restart because I don’t have the control via Webinterface to do a restart anymore at this time.

Also I think there is a big difference to empty benches and benches full of items.
I don’t mean that lag when you are so near by so the preview is popping up.
Once I moved some chests to a different place in my base. So for a short time I placed most of the stuff in all benches I had. While it was in benches my whole base was lagging. After putting it back to chests the lag was gone.
I never test this again so I can’t really say that nobody else makes something memory intensive on the server at the same time. But it seems to me that benches has a much bigger preloading distance then chests. Maybe because they check what’s in crafting process?

If we know what actions or items are memory intensive we could do it another not memory intensive way or be careful with this stuff.

As an admin on a private i was able to see the current memory usage of my server. But as a not admin on ps4 i don’t have a chance to see what’s going on. I only have a lag that tolds me something could be memoryintensive.

I reconized for myself that 20k or 30k structure pieces are not really a problem. But if I start decorate and light up this structure with 500-1000 placables it starts to lag.

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Me too. And I would also like to know which items are more likely to impact server performance vs. which ones are more likely to impact client performance. Right now I can only make an educated guess, but that’s nowhere near the same as knowing what the devs say.

That would be a good start, at least. It would be much better to have some sort of in-game indicator of the complexity of my base, kinda like Little Big Planet had that “thermometer” that limited how much complexity you could build into your level.

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That would be helpful. Very helpful in fact.

It would be useful also when someone(s) tries to say: “I didn’t know that”, “No one told me that” , specifics really help to lift the veil (feigned ignorance) that some like to use to protect their bad behavior.

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