Consolization: The console vs PC Wars

[KorgFoehammer]

"Consolization" - The Console vs PC Wars

For a long time, I had some more mild take on this issue, but a whole lot of games, Cyberpunk, to name one of the worse offender, but also several other games that use 3rd/1st person, including Conan Exiles, they are starting to get really annoying for PC gaming.
I play in a PC, because a PC has a keyboard, it has a mouse, it can be used natively by Unreal Engine and other engines, to do what THEY DO, and a game developer would not need to do anything to it, and instead just make the adjustments to console controls, if any, as they can simply allow console players to set THEIR OWN “accessibilities”.

I dont see the reason to these changes, specially because it might take some work to remove them using mods, when they being added require also work that could have been put into making something to make the game better to everyone.

A PC gamer can hold “view point” with mouse, we dont need the game to correct our view point WHEN WE WANT TO KEEP IT AS IT IS, or we dont need the game to rail us in a direction the mouse is not pointing REGARDLESS OF REMOVING THE SETTING THAT SHOULD STOP IT.

Driving in Cyberpunk was for a long time a mess in PC (I dont know in consoles because I dont use my XBox to play that much, as my wife is hte one who plays on it), but you dont need to TEMPER with PC playing to accommodate console playing.

For a first glance, the change was “reversible” in early stages in Conan Exiles, but now it does not work anymore. The change is insidious, and keep its implications no matter what combination of directional and controller view you use. That makes the game for PC only worse, for no reason at all.

There is an option for you to set what goes in the console version and what doesnt. If you cant play both together because of that ? So be it.

And it is not even a question of “what if someone uses controllers on PC”, because if you do so, any sort of “controller frameworks” already implement the “accessibility” for you, like the Steam one, or the logitech one.

There is no reason to keep furthering this stupidity. If you choose to play on a PC, you are doing so because of what a PC can offer, more so if you are choosing to play on keyboard and mouse.

Had to say that, but I dont really care. Just finished to make my mod for returning the controls as they were, and for good measure, I am also improving on the keyboard control, so to allow things which arent really extended to keyboard control, to be so.

There was a time …

When if you would spend long times playing, or played a game for a long time, you own reflexes translated into actions on mouse and keyboard. You would fight and react sure that your mouse position and direction was muscle memory, not “situational” according to some “dumb scale” of what “you might want to do”. If I turned my mouse 1/4 of the already “felt” turn around, the view would turn 1/4 of the turn around view, and STAY THERE, no matter where I am going. I could know where I was going to go, and plan accordingly, slicing through enemies because I could DECIDE WHICH ENEMY TO HIT BY THE DIRECTION I AM AIMING, and make clever decisions like attack going sideways, or attack “en pasant” not really in the direction of the enemy, because I KNOW WHAT I WANT TO DO AND WANT TO CONTROL IT THAT WAY.
A time when if you want to shoot out of direction for some reason your present idea of strategy want, your mouse, your keyboard, the system did not tried to “guess” what you wanted to do, they let you decide what to do, and if it goes wrong, IT IS YOUR PROBLEM. You learn from that, you adapt, you create.

Now you actually cant really control the fine tune of movement, because you need to “predict what the control will decide”. I dont really know if console people like that, but I am sure it sucks on PC.

I want not to have to guess the circunstances the game will change my input, and instead have my input to be A SPECIFIC THING I CAN COUNT ON, and learn to use it.

Learning is good. People learning does not only contribute to learning the game, but the act of learning is also a good practice to “learn to learn”. The game does not need to take that away to be fun. Learning can be fun if the game is done right.

[Bathory]

I watched entire video, and that young man says that console war was between Sega and Sony, while the real war was between Nintendo and Sega, The Golden Age. Nintendo and Sega gave us the best titles that are alive even today.

It’s not about controller vs mouse and keyboard.
It’s about forcing you to buy both… they can hook up mice and keyboards to consoles, they just don’t want to.

[Taemien]

@Bathory

It’s about forcing you to buy both… they can hook up mice and keyboards to consoles, they just don’t want to.

When those controllers are $60-70+ a piece, that’s probably why.

The biggest issue with consoles outside of Nintendo (they’re… a completely different animal), is their exclusivity. Not only I can’t use a Mouse and Keyboard on a Xbox or Playstation, but I cannot use specific controller types of my choosing. For example, I prefer the SNES style controller with twin sticks (commonly known as the Dualshock) but I cannot use that style controller on Xbox. Nor can you use a Xbox controller on Playstation. But you can use anything on PC under the sun.

Why is that? Well because they want you to buy their stuff, and not use stuff you might already have.

The controller I currently use is the original Logitech Rumblepad 2, its over 20 years old. It runs fine on PC, even plays in Conan Exiles really well. Its my go to for games I want to play controller with as well as RetroArch games.

Why shouldn’t that work on Playstation or Xbox? It has all the buttons (minus the two you use your non-index fingers in the back). It has two analogue sticks.

But if we’re asking that question, why not keyboard and mouse? Better yet, why not use standard input drivers so that exotic input devices can be used especially for those using devices to cover for disabilities?

I don’t have the manual dexterity I had 20 years ago. I play in such a manner that has my movement (walk, run, jump) with my left hand and all actions and aiming with my right hand. My left hand sits on WASD and can use shift and space as needed to cover all movements. Then in my right hand I have a 17 button MMO Mouse that has a 12 button numbered array of 3x4 buttons used for all the actions I ever need. It provides efficiency to make up for lack of mobility. As well as on the fly variable DPI settings should I need it.

Can’t do that on xbox or playstation though. Got to use the controller with its limited options requiring numerous button combinations to access a complicated moveset. Assuming the game hasn’t been consolized as the above video calls it, and cut down to account for the controller limitation.

Well I say you can’t and when I say such, I mean officially. You can buy devices that trick the system into thinking you’re using a controller. While its actually a Keyboard and Mouse of your choosing. Technically violating EULA, but those agreements go out the window when ADA arguments can be made. But due to the hardware nature, good luck even catching when said devices are used. Just something to keep in mind for those who think they are safe from macros and auto clickers on their consoles.

But let’s talk about those controllers they want you to buy and use. They are of inferior quality yet charging premium prices. Buttons using silicon membranes instead of mechanical switches, analogue sticks that drift after a few months of use (did I mention my 21 year old Rumblepad has no analogue issues? Not bad for a device old enough to drink). You can get custom controllers made for a hundred or two USD, but they don’t have modern hardware such as optical swtiches or 1mm actuation.

To get the performance on a controller I get out of my Corsair K100 keyboard, you’d likely have to spend the cost of a console. Which makes zero sense. Consoles are primarily for games. Why are they lagging behind peripherals used on PCs which their primarily function actually isn’t gaming?

Except, such a performance controller doesn’t even exist. Can’t even buy one. There was one company that had a line of controllers with mechanical switches in its buttons, but they’ve gone under or stopped producing said controllers. Believe me, I want a better controller, I’ll use it on my PC. I’m not an Anti-Controller guy, in fact in the last 72 hours I’ve used a controller more for gaming than my Mouse and Keyboard. But I am anti-junk, and I’m not impressed with what has been produced by various manufacturers in the last 15 years when it comes to controllers. Heck even the NES004 is better than most modern hardware in that regard. It at least doesn’t suffer from input latency like many knock offs do.

[KorgFoehammer]

I guess you watched the whole video, starting somwhere after the first part in which he states literally:

" I have been steadfast however that the consolized it a virtual worlds will lead to ultimately smaller less in-depth worlds and is a negative in the big
picture of things at least when trying to make a massive world I wanted to make this video because I feel like players don’t really recognize the negatives that come with a game being primed or adapted to console especially if it was built with that in mind and not just because it can provide negatives but that in the bigger scheme of things it seems to shrink the overall scale and ability to execute said Virtual World".

Along the video, which is subtitled “CONSOLE VS PC WARS”, went on to show in concept, while describing many of what happened as an overshoot of a console wars, the problem with adapting a “World” to function in the context of a console “at all”, instead of “too”.

The problem is simple, and encapsulated in the video in its subtlety, which seem to be too subtle. When you have restricted movement, level design must not require more than that freedom of movement. When you cant combat in a certain way, the game cannot have a combat system that requires you to, and when you need to be “seeing” everything, the game can have only a visual dimension attached to auxiliary dimensions.

All that diminishes what you think of as the “game World” (in development, the Dreamworld, or the “Master Level”) requiring that it be flatlined and diminished to abide to the possible of “control” and “perception” afforded by the system you are using it in.

Along those lines for example, and demonstrated by three studies, was the effects of simplifying “World of Warcraft” from the initial need for a scope in control, to the incremental lessening of it reflected in the level design, which is a theme park MMO, not at all something that should relate to a sandbox not Massive game.

From that time, other studies in the area were made that substantiate the direct relation in which simplifying the game to be “perceived” by the peripherals of a Console, and to be played with its inputs, objectively contributes to the restriction and diminishing of the size and scope of their levels.

Later at the video he also states that it would be impossible to ask that a Dreamworld be as some people want, and ask that it all must be equally perceived and enjoyed in consoles is a tall order almost impossible to accomplish.

All in all, that is also a video that is a fruit of a channel that if you take time to analyse, has made similar videos and showed similar points in many other videos.

The channel does have a video on “console wars” though.

I do have to admit I am in some “scope” biased on the search, because I myself have used this theme to my economics paper on Game Economic Systems, and another about the Cost of a Metaverse, which are not published yet, but much of the research was done acquainting myself with the works that talk about this, including some mentioned by the host in this video, and another videos. Also others speaking of the practical implications and requirements of these developments, like Steed, A. (2010), “Virtual Worlds, Metaverse Platforms, and the Future of Immersive Online Social Spaces”, or even the very own papers from the very own Warcraft guy “Steve Danuser” talking about the support and in game support analysis to deal with learning demands on Dreamworlds.

While those are fascinating reads for people who are interested in the finer details of how the mere fact that “using the same button to multiple actions based in context” translates to “that castle must not have more than 3 floors”, the relation still there nonetheless to those players who doesnt even know what is the difference between a actor blueprint and a component blueprint is.

And they still influence all their experiences in the game.

[MarcosC]

I would absolutely love to read your papers when you get them published, @KorgFoehammer .
I hope you don’t forget about telling us when such fortunate event comes to pass.

[erjoh]

Ok one point here. It assumes massiveness is a positive feature and from what I understand with reviews of starfield, it’s not. In fact it’s really hampering the game to have such massiveness with little to no good content in it. That is time and resources to make something that your customers don’t enjoy outside of this concept of awe on the size of the world. There comes a point where it is limiting to the attention span of gamers and the resources used to create it has very limited return.

Now about the condole vs PC. Ok fine tell the company that by keeping it on PC, you are willing to make up of the revenue that they would miss out when exposing their game to over 200 million new customers. Tell them that their micro transactions will be embraced by the PC crowd as easily as the consoles do. Tell them they are fools for not trusting the PC consumer will make up the difference. If you can’t, then tell me why it’s a problem that an enjoyable game has a massive cross platform player/consumer base. Why should they limit their revenue and tie up further resources to make and mange this work of art?

[MarcosC]

@erjoh

Ok one point here. It assumes massiveness is a positive feature and from what I understand with reviews of starfield, it’s not.

It’s not massiveness per se. It’s intricacy and complexity.
Most console games are too arcady. I lost a lot when I decided to move for console for the sake of simplicity and comfort.
If you start making games always thinking about the console environment, you have no choice but to “dumb down” some excellent pc games so that consoles can run them.
I don’t know if there is much that can be done about it…

[erjoh]

@MarcosC

intricacy and complexity.

But once again…does it add to the mass enjoyment of the game or is it a bragging right? I mean CE has community that is large thanks to the “consolezation” where a significant amount of folks would have never crossed into this game if it was PC only. How is that factored into this analysis? Basically these type of commentaries and analyses focus on one aspect or another but I have yet to see one focused on enjoyment. Odd that. Games are supposed to be about having fun and enjoying. There is a side benefit where a community is formed around the game and the enjoyment is exponentially shared. This is good for the players and the bank accounts of the companies.

[MarcosC]

@erjoh

But once again…does it add to the mass enjoyment of the game or is it a bragging right?

For me definitely contributes. I don’t like simplistic games and much less button smashers unless they test other competences. I couldn’t care less about studios or players bragging rights.

[KorgFoehammer]

You dont need to consolize the PC experience to have a console experience of a game. There are many games which make use of the keyboard and mouse input succesfully without changing the console experience.

Oddly enough, in general, these games are the ones that make the reverse journey: A game that was made and consolidated in Consoles and THEN became a computer game. They are not that common in that journey, much less in being not a simple “port”.

The funny thing is: Console players are familiar with that problem, and complain about it also, when the problem is “mobilization” (pun intended).

Console players are stacking up in the net complaining when console games are mere ports of a mobile game and for that reason, dont use half of the buttons in the controller because they are simple mobile ports. Console player seem to understand the problem it brings, by “knowing” or by “feeling” it is a problem to them. They often do not see the same problem from a 100+ button and full polynomial function directional inputs to a binomial function double directional inputs vs a angular plus 11/15/21 button input.

More than that, the disposition also becomes a problem. Console players do know that touch screen based controllers restrict the kind of games you can have, even if those are copies of physical controllers to the detail, of appearance. Console players do know the fact that not all players playing mobile wanting to “invest” in a physical controller to their mobile games will restrict what those games can do if they are the exact same made to consoles. They often cant see the exact same relation to the fact that I can have the same problem with console to PC identical ports.

For example: While you might not use the full keyboard on average as a PC player, you often do bind keys you use less times to places in the keyboard you will not be that fast to find, so every time you press a specfic button, it does one specific task. I have an example in the very own Conan Exiles standard keybinding, in which I will make the Z, X and C buttons respond to different bindings because as the “console base bind” is mirrored, some of these buttons are used to different things in different situations but they still can be used for their different functions if they are unclogged from them.

Standard “gaming sets” will look like this, if people dont know them:

And my most used one:

Already they mostly feature directionals and more buttons than a controller that you will have at your fingertips literally, and on top of that, you might be using mice like these:

The most common (buyer data and use data from research) gaming mice are the ones with 2 central buttons, the small one on the back, and the wheel/button, plus the 2 standard, and 3 side buttons.
But a sizeable chunk of the players in 3rd/1st person games will be using something like this, which is still on the “cheap side” if you have it in regular brands like the “white lable chinese made” or small brands:

Of course, I am not advocating that games cater to the “avid folks” who use something like this:

BUt while we have brands in here like Razr on the “images”, all these gaming implements can be found in versions with a good durability and functionality that cost a fraction of the price by using a faction of the quality in the materials and assembly, and using generic software instead of LG hub or Razr Central.

But the main thing is: When we are playing games in PC we should be able to unfold controls, and be able to set up them, as we want. We should not have to abide to the situational choices implosed by console input peripherals, even if it creates a perceived “competitive advantage”, as the game is not really some “e-sports” game.

Based on steam data, server population and other metrics, sorry to burst your bubble, but most people play this game on PC, and in solo or Co-Op modes. While there is no question in this regard about being a server player or not, the question here is the assertion that “having it IDENTICAL” in PC and Console does serve a purpose. It does not.

You would still have the same console players playing it as it is to them, if you kept the PC players with their freedom of control. And would probably have some more players who would find refreshing to have a game that allow you the freedom of PC controls not plagued by consolization as all others games do.

Some might ask: Ok, I will indulge you, but what practical difference does it make ?

First, there is the even console players complaints that fill reddit and other platforms about the standards of control schemes over the “lesser common denominator” that led to stagnation of design. A common thread that the very own console gamers discuss. As if some controls have 2 sticks, others 1 dpad and one stick, the functions of either must be “interchangeable”, and therefore the 2 sticks and dpad controls offer a dull experience compared to what they could should they were fully integrated.

Well, that is the thing about the polynomial function of the mouse input vs the binomial sequential input of a “stick”. A stick will have something like direction(distanceX * distanceY) structure, which tells the machine how much you are holding it in a certain direction and how that direction distances itself from the origin of X and Y. At first glance, that is what a mouse also gives, but not quite. If we equate the stick to “positioning”, the mouse will give (positioning*positioning(t-1)/DPI) which allows us to control not only where we pointing out, but where we are keeping it pointing through time, allowing for a compounded effect that will allow us to make a intuitive motion that keeps for example your aim into a central point while circling around that point, without having to move the “dpad” to match that point, much like someone looking 45 degrees to the left while walking circling around a point would not have to move the head to match that point if the running direction keeps steady. That “might” but not perfectly only be achieved by a very skilled use of two DPADs, but in a keyboard, I can still have 3 fingers in one hand, and full use of at least 3 buttons while doing that. In a console, I dont.
You might say “oh, that is -advanced gamer things”, and you might be right from a casual just play candy crush standpoint. But someone who just go around playing games which allow for that freedom, the hand to eye coordination system of the brain will take over and you be doing that without even realizing you are doing that. That is why ASDW won over the directional keys the gaming standard. Directional keys are in a place in the keyboard long put there for the “typing use” of early computers, but they are not “intuitive” to be used for gaming, even by left handed people like me. Not everything (almost nothing) is simply “mirrored” for left handed people. So in time, your eye to hand coordination from the tasks of “real life” adapt your use of “inputs” and etc.
For someone who plays PC games which do not care for consolization, when you sit in a game that does, you instantly feel the difference. Your character seems to be railed, cluched. You can almost feel when you are used to “turn around” and doing the same thing the character simply “doesnt”.

Again, there is no reason for that, because there is no reason to sacrifice the Quality of Playing for a chunk of the playerbase just so it is “equal” to play on consoles and PC, or a lesser chunk yet who would “sometimes” want to play cross platform.

AND EVEN SO, you can have crossplatform play without needing to have the same control scheme.

[erjoh]

@KorgFoehammer

Based on steam data, server population and other metrics, sorry to burst your bubble, but most people play this game on PC, and in solo or Co-Op modes.

That statement requires evidence and remember you have to include the console numbers.

@KorgFoehammer

While there is no question in this regard about being a server player or not, the question here is the assertion that “having it IDENTICAL” in PC and Console does serve a purpose. It does not.

Really? You are asking the companies to make two games so that you can maximize PC gaming. You have yet to show the fiscal incentive of such effort. You make your case in terms of quality for the PC player and I don’t doubt that. Now prove that it will significantly adjust the bottom line so that they can maintain two segregated games.

From my experience, segregation never works well and is incredibly inefficient if you truly care for all the sides. FC has evolved past the dark days when they tried segregated development in which PC would get their revision a month before PlayStation who got their revision a month before Xbox. It’s bad business to treat your customers differently.

[Taemien]

@KorgFoehammer

AND EVEN SO, you can have crossplatform play without needing to have the same control scheme.

I actually can agree with this.

If consoles had less restrictions, then the issues of Controller vs Mouse & Keyboard would vanish. Not just because console users would have access to Mouse & Keyboard, but lighter restrictions would also allow more third party support to controllers, allowing them to effectively have their cake and eat it. They would have access to controllers that would be designed specifically to bridge that gap.

Right now those controllers don’t really exist. There’s no reason to. If you designed a controller for Xbox for example, that gave you an equal footing or edge on mouse and keyboard, but all of your opponents are using first party controllers… well microsoft isn’t going to allow that controller for the same reasons they don’t allow Mouse and Keyboard.

I mean if you look at third party Xbox controllers, they all act like Xbox controllers. They can adjust layouts, but they cannot add functionality or features (such as extra buttons or the like).Any form of macro’ing or the like is definitely verboten.

The downside to this much restriction is actually hurting players economically. Console controllers are incredibly expensive. While PC hardware can sometimes be double. Its at least understandable that with the standard keyboard having 104 keys, it can get pricey to make all those mechanical. But what excuse does a high end controller have? They’re still using silicone inserts that wear out (which are thankfully replaceable in some controllers).

But there isn’t really any tolerated competition. Understandably Sony doesn’t want competition within their own system and Microsoft doesn’t want it on their Xbox. That’s great for them. They get licensing fees and control. Not so great for their players who pay $60 for a standard controller.

A standard gaming mouse and keyboard for casual play can go for half that. For both. As in you can get started gaming with $30 total for the two devices. Which given the platform is amazing since most PC users don’t use their PC’s primarily for gaming.

I guess that’s my biggest pet peeve with consoles these days. My PC, despite its hardware and the devices centered around gaming, it is still not its primary role. I do way more and spend way more time with non-gaming activities on my PC than I do the gaming. Yet I have far superior devices for gaming.

It makes no sense that console input devices to not have similar or even better quality and features compared to what I have. Despite their primary role being gaming, and most users only using them for gaming (I think I was one of the weird ones who used to watch streaming on their Wii).

And in my opinion this hinders crossplay the most.

[MarcosC]

@Taemien

console users would have access to Mouse & Keyboard

And it’s not as if you can’t pair a wifi keyboard (or even through cable) and a mouse to your console. It’s possible, but I think you can only write. I had one for the ps4. Haven’t tried for the ps5.

[KorgFoehammer]

“Segregation”. This word would be useful in this discussion if like EVE Online, everyone played in the same server, the same game world, and the same economy.

You might not find a 500 player group from the hundreds of thousands playing this game everyday that share the same game. Statistics show that it is not even a common place that 20 people playing this game share the same game world.

The community is not bound by a same game, or a same game World even if in a divided capacity like SimCity.

That is the “second problem” after consolization. The mindset that creates these “communities” as if everyone is the same, wants the same and like the same.

A MMORPG needs to cater to all its players because all its players share if not the same World, the same rules and restrictions.

Conan Exiles ? One can just play alone as admin and build and test things without not even caring about combat or anything, while others band together to “see whos the best”.

There is no reason at all to “get everyone in the same boat”.

Same freedom anyone have to set up how many woods you get from a tree, one should have to decide use their controls as a PC player would in a PC game.

If this was an MMO, I would understand (but not agree) that PC players should have some kind of balance over console players, which is mostly not what happens.

In games one can actually play the same World, what happens is that console players have what they mostly forget they have: Hand holding.

Why most players showing off sniper feats and etc are console players ? Console games often feature correction to your aim, to your timing, to your cadence so you seem to be making it correctly.

Native and mainly PC games do not, because without it, people can make strategic decisions that while might go wrong, allow you to do stuff consoles cant, because it is not humanly possible to use its controls to do it.

There is no reason to say “separation” of an already apart group is anything else than its mere concept.

About updates, they are not different in certain games because they are not the same for console and PC, they are different because the devs so make it.

When you are using Unreal Engine, or Frostbyte, the two I know for experience, you dont really need to change the specific subsystem that manages controls to make the rest. You can have the same base components for the other stuff that is the same, and leave the controls alone for when their specific code must be changed.

This control and “accessibility” difference in itself does not require the updates to be made separately. OTHER THINGs do that are not related to it.

For the most part, the games are developed using computer tech, and there is a myth some Reddit posts keep propagating:
Console games are not developed in the “game code” to run in consoles. They are developed to RUN, and basal systems handle in which hardware they run. While some are “open”, so you can go there and make a game you have to run in certain consoles, mostly chinese and old western, others like Playstation, require a suite of COMPUTER SOFTWARE to make the game you are developing IN A COMPUTER to run in a Playstation.

The “hardware deppendency” some people talk about does not really talk to the place you are developing the game, but suppose you are using a “oh so wonderful workstation for development” that can handle what a Playstation 5, 6, 7, 100, can handle. That specific hardware will have a set of engine code that makes the game run in that platform. When you fireup the cooking for the console game, what it does is translate the basal code that handles hardware to the hardware of the game. Then you test it afterwards to see if the process was done correctly, and if not, you tweak certain parameters in the cooking, so it might do it correctly.

There is not a special “development” thing in which “the whole game” is developed for a console. What happens is that everyone who has a Playstation 5 will have that specific hardware, to which the translation from the computer architecture that it was developed in will translate “every part of the code” based on known drivers and known hardware. When you are compiling a PC game, it will rely on “trusting that you have the driver it also uses”, “trust you have the redistributed runtimes” they also use, and that your system, whatever it is, can run the “game code” on its “operational code”.

There is no reason to make them all the same other than “saving development time at the cost of subpar use of one hardware”.

This is so much so, that Sony will require certain things to be done “up to Sony Standards” to avoid that someone wanting their game in the Sony ecossystem does what developers do to PC gamers. So you cant just port a mobile game with the trashy mobile use of hardware to a PS game and stuff it into the PS store, because Sony wont allow that, because THEY KNOW THIS IS DETRIMENTAL TO THEIR PLATFORM.

What I want to see here is that we as PC gamers are held in the same standard facing PS or XBOX too.