In Game Moderation after 3.0

[Rollotomozi]

I have played a fair amount of Conan Exiles, more than some, not as much as others.
I only play on Official Servers.
Over the years, my default position to extremely large builds has been let Time be the arbiter, and generally speaking this approach has worked, and the large builds fall to dust over time, as attention wanes.

For builds that have blocked, or made access to certain areas difficult, I have taken those as a personal challenges, and tried to find creative ways to circumvent the build, usually successfully.

There are instances however, either by willful malfeasance, or novice ignorance, when some builds result in Server performace issues, or otherwise make a certain part of the game inacessible.

It is these cases where I feel that an interaction between the Player and the Company is important.
This interaction would serve to inform both parties; the Player about what the actual offending action is, and the Company about what the motivations/understanding of the Player are.

As far as reporting folks currently, I have made the decision to abstain.
My reasoning for this is that I think it is appropriate to give the Player a chance to address an issue themselves. This would involve reaching out and contacting the Player.
I am reluctant to do this currently, due to the fear that if I do reach out to a Player and ask them to reconsider a portion of their build, they will just send in a report to Zendesk about me, and I will get banned.
24/7 Game Moderation is not what I was advocating in the Original Post. Rather I think that submitted reports should be judiciously reviewed by Staff, and when it has been determined that someone has exceeded the guidelines currently in place, a dialogue between the Company and the Player should take place. This would allow the Player to have a concrete understanding why an action is being taken, as well as giving the Company an opportunity to determine if it was a good faith mistake, or someone intentionally being a bad player, and administer penalties accordingly.

Private servers while an alternative, do not guarantee a better overall experience with the game, so I am always confused when a discussion about improving things on Official Servers gets “Go to Private” responses.

Have a great day all.

[darthphysicist]

I think privates have an opportunity to “step up” tho. Personally, I have been tempted to start a pvp server and am keenly aware (from reading posts here) the concerns of pvp on private and would make every effort to address and minimize those concerns so people feel fairly treated. I think it can be done, even if challenging. A “professional” approach is what’s needed. You sir would be a brain I would try to pick if I ever pulled the trigger on this because you and a few other people around here are straight shooters and provide meaningful discussions on the topic.

[TeleTesselator]

I agree in general with your reply but this:

@CodeMage

@Taemien

At some point you all need to understand and accept that Funcom simply doesn’t have the ability to explain it any further down to meet your needs.

At some point, yes. Not at this point. Like I’ve stated before, I have personally seen questions that still need answering.

just isn’t cutting it. Basically he (seems to be) saying they’re incapable. That’s complete and utter nonsense! I realize you go on to express and show that it is but my gawd man, such a light touch!?!

Anyone with such an absurd idea like game devs, designers, or “community leaders” can’t form clear and precise sentences needs a good thrashing IMO. Holy moly!

That they don’t in this particular case has only to do with a mindset they have assumed. And yes, they require rebuff until such time as that mindset is appropriately altered.

[Taemien]

If you think otherwise, then why has nearly a year passed without the clarification you are looking for? That leaves two options. Either they’ve done it to the best of their ability, or they simply don’t want to. One is plausible, the other is a conspiracy theory.

[CodeMage]

@TeleTesselator

Basically he (seems to be) saying they’re incapable.

I took it to mean that they’ve reached the point where the rules can’t be explained any further in general and can only be talked about in terms of individual cases. That’s why I said that I agree that we will eventually come to that point.

@Taemien

Either they’ve done it to the best of their ability, or they simply don’t want to. One is plausible, the other is a conspiracy theory.

There’s a third option: they’ve done it well enough that it feel below their top priorities and they’ll continue working on it once those are dealt with.

I mean, let’s be realistic here, they have more data than we do and they can see if shіt’s actually on fire the way the forums would have everyone believe. Note that I’m not denying there are problems with the status quo and that there are people experiencing those problems every day. I’m simply saying that it might not really be as bad as to trump other, higher priorities.

If they actually have statistics about how many players play on official servers and how many got banned and some numbers breaking down those bans, they might have all the data they need to look at the situation and say “eh, good enough for now, we’ll fix the rest once this other, bigger storm blows over”.

[Taemien]

No offense, but that’s the second option, said in a way that doesn’t hurt as many feelings. Let’s be honest here, it doesn’t take much time or effort to send someone to make a post. We see this on a near everday basis on many different server communities already.

But I will say this, you’re not wrong. If the servers were dying from bans or people leaving, then adjustments would likely come down rather quickly. The analytics and stats aren’t hard to see (and don’t require exotic tools to interpret).

The anecdotal evidence on the forums is there is far less problems now than there was a bit more than two years ago. It was way spicier back then.

[CodeMage]

@Taemien

Let’s be honest here, it doesn’t take much time or effort to send someone to make a post.

We’re all soooooo quick to declare that this or that doesn’t take much time or effort. Hell, I often do that, too.

True, it doesn’t take much time or effort to just bash out a post. I mean, just look at how much I write on these forums

But let me try explaining this differently: it doesn’t take much time or effort to bash out a quick Python script to do something simple, but it takes a lot more to turn it into a tool that others can use.

I see the same sentiment pop up when it comes to game features: “If modders can do X, why can’t Funcom? They’re just lazy.” No, they’re not, they simply have more to account for.

Sure, maybe it’s not too hard to write an answer to a question. But you not only have to be careful with how you phrase it if you’re supposed to represent a whole freaking company, you also have to pay extra attention to the replies, just in case some knucklehead managed to misinterpret something – often deliberately – in ways that can damage the company.

Also, we’re talking about a handful of people who have a shіtload of stuff to do apart from hanging out on the forums.

Oh, and all of the above was under the assumption that it doesn’t take that much time or effort to send someone to make the kind of post people are asking for. I don’t think that the last clarification post we’ve seen was trivial to make.

[TeleTesselator]

@Taemien

If you think otherwise, then why has nearly a year passed without the clarification you are looking for?

I already answered that. Right or wrong, they have assumed or adopted a mindset that is preventing them from seeing things the way players (or some players anyway) do. They think they’re doing it right. You can see this in every one of their communications (and non-communications). It’s not that their lazy or don’t want to do more, it’s CERTAINLY not the case that they are too incompetent or unable to form nice sentences. My gawd man, I’m sure you have an idea what to takes to master Unreal Engine, manage a group of developers, create semi-canonical content and develop story lines, or lead a team of server administrators, no? You’re gonna try and say they are unable or incapable in any way?

@CodeMage

I don’t think that the last clarification post we’ve seen was trivial to make.

I do! I bet for sure it took only around one hour. If it were me I would have either used my own images from my own “actions” or I would have told the team i need some examples of X, Y, and Z. There’s the most difficult part right there - remembering to grab a screeny before hitting Demolish. Then pick 3 or 4 of the most expressive for each category and write some text around it. Let the guy sitting next to you proof it once, change a sentence or two and off it goes. Yeah, about an hour maybe. One of the guys or Umborls himself, did some very light image editing too so maybe 1.5 hours…

I guess the most difficult part of it all was coming to the understanding that it was needed at all. And you can see that aspect of it in some of his follow-up replies too.

@Taemien

The anecdotal evidence on the forums is there is far less problems now than there was a bit more than two years ago. It was way spicier back then.

Did make any difference? Did anything change? If so maybe we need a little more spice! Cuz not telling people why they were banned is unforgivable! Not telling people directly in an in-game linked ruleset with clearly worded sentences and bullet points, the kinds of things that will lead to a ban or wipe can almost be construed as evil. Somewhere between 10% and 30% of the people coming here to complain have very good reason to! All evidence points to that anyway…

EDIT:
^{The example list I used was from December of last year which goes to show how long this has been an issue, but more recent clarifications have shown one or two of those points to be only partially correct.}

[Kikigirl]

@TeleTesselator

Somewhere between 10% and 30% of the people coming here to complain have very good reason to! All evidence points to that anyway…

I wouldn’t have made my initial post nor been active in discussions regarding the report meta if I knew the actual reasons or I was guilty.

I’ve been banned before for a ToC building mistake because someone I added to clan didn’t want to accept the ToC and the rest of us paid for it. It was actually explained to us why at that time, early on into the heavier enforcement. I learned a few things that day; as a player how to respect others in the game (even though I already did but it was too late) and as a leader how to be choosier in who I let into my fold.

I understood why, I accepted it and I learned from it.

Now? No. Not what happened 3 weeks ago. Nor what has happened to many especially in the last 2 months.

[Taemien]

The scum that got themselves banned knew what they were doing and are salty they can’t hurt others with their sh-tty play. Good riddance. Their opinions are less than dirt. Move on and ignore them. I don’t see the point in giving the time of day to exploiters, cheaters, griefers, and racists.

[CodeMage]

@TeleTesselator

Did make any difference? Did anything change?

Yes. A lot has changed, on PVE-C servers at least. For the better.

[CodeMage]

@Marcospt

You should be careful about calling other people scum so easily. Some just don’t know the rules. Even if they know the rules, they might get carried away decorating their bases and get the hammer. This doesn’t qualify them as scum, you know?

I agree that we shouldn’t tar everyone with the same brush. On the other hand, I would have absolutely no qualms applying the word “scum” to the people @Taemien explicitly called out: exploiters, cheaters, griefers, and racists, to name a few.

But yeah, he seems to imply that only those got banned, and that’s definitely false.

[erjoh]

Yeah we got to understand that there are false positives as far as banned people go.

[CodeMage]

@Marcospt

I can understand you feel tempted to excuse him

Oh no, not at all. No excuse meant, and I’m sorry if it came across like that. That’s why I said what he implied was definitely false.

I’ve been on the receiving side of that kind of talk from him, so trust me when I say I don’t feel inclined to make excuses.

I just wanted to point out that while he’s definitely wrong about what he said, there has also been a non-trivial number of people like those he described complaining on the forums about it.

It’s a sign of progress and of things getting better that those aren’t showing up anymore. In the beginning, though, when they started banning them, it was quite spectacular.

[TeleTesselator]

@Taemien

I don’t see the point in giving the time of day to exploiters, cheaters, griefers, and racists.

I agree with that. But the fact is, NOT everyone falls into those categories. There’s a pretty big chunk of folks who are none of those things. It seems to me as if that chunk-size is somewhere between 10% and 30% of the people who come here and post after a ban or a wipe.

[Boobie]

Cheaters don’t come here to post because they get away with it.

[Taemien]

@TeleTesselator

I agree with that. But the fact is, NOT everyone falls into those categories. There’s a pretty big chunk of folks who are none of those things. It seems to me as if that chunk-size is somewhere between 10% and 30% of the people who come here and post after a ban or a wipe.

The amount of people being banned is quite small compared to the community as a whole. Some of you think that hundreds are being banned per day. If this was true, there wouldn’t have been any growth on FC’s servers in the last few months. Some of the servers even have enough active players to warrant queues. This wasn’t the case a year ago. There isn’t even dozens per day banned and I’m willing to bet that there could even be days that go by where no one is banned. This is not an endemic.

As far as false positives. That’s a small percentage of a small percentage that I am not even going to worry about. Do I feel bad for someone who is wrongfully banned? Sure. I do. But they’re so few that they can easily get their issues rectified through the proper channels. A forum post talking about their ban is not helping and only breaking more rules. Thus making people (and those who can fix their issues) less sympathetic.

Some of you love to bring up the fact that FC has all the stats, analytics, and evidence for their servers. Well… this includes how many people are banned, why they are banned, and how far those actions crossed the line. I’m going to retract a statement I made about FC possibily being incapable of dealing with people in regards to the rules and agree with you TeleTesselator and state that they have the best capability to handle this and have so. They have absolutely no reason to falsely ban people unless they wish to simply be mean and nasty, which I don’t believe is the case.

They have on a few occasions state that they do review people’s reports and do check out the offenses, rather than banning on number of reports. I have no reason to believe they are lying. Umbrols hasn’t lied. Ignasi hasn’t lied. AndyB hasn’t lied.

So tell me, if you disagree with this, which one of these FC folks you think is lying to us, and exactly where? Because its super easy to refer to FC as a nebulous, obscure entity, and then make all kinds of claims against it. But most don’t have the gall to call out a singular individual who is actually responsible. Usually because you have to have your own stuff in order to do it.

[erjoh]

@Taemien

But most don’t have the gall to call out a singular individual who is actually responsible.

Oh that’s easy. It’s always @AndyB .

[CodeMage]

@Taemien

As far as false positives. That’s a small percentage of a small percentage that I am not even going to worry about. Do I feel bad for someone who is wrongfully banned? Sure. I do. But they’re so few that they can easily get their issues rectified through the proper channels.

Okay, so I agree with you that “false positives” means “people who were banned without breaking any rules” (i.e. people whose bans should be overturned). However, I don’t think that’s what @erjoh meant when he used it.

I think you’re overlooking another group of people: those who broke the rules, got banned, and don’t know why. That group is larger than the group of false positives.

I also agree with your assessment that even this group is small enough to allow Funcom to deprioritize dealing with this situation for the moment, while they have more pressing things to do. If the situation was bad enough to seriously jeopardize the growth of the game, they would have prioritized it. There’s evidence for that when you look at how they prioritize bugfixes.

However, the group of people we’re talking about here – those who broke the rules and genuinely don’t understand why – is a non-trivial number and it’s not going away. They’re not going away, not because they’re stubborn dicks who want everyone to suffer, but because they want to keep playing the game without breaking the rules, and also because their numbers keep being replenished by new people who make the same mistakes.

Rectifying this might not be the most urgent thing ever, but it does need to happen eventually.

[Ethel]

@Taemien

They have on a few occasions state that they do review people’s reports and do check out the offenses, rather than banning on number of reports. I have no reason to believe they are lying. Umbrols hasn’t lied. Ignasi hasn’t lied. AndyB hasn’t lied.

my dude, as i have explained a millon times, i saw people getting banned for unjust reasons with my own eyes.
They don’t review the reports, they simply act as bots .
in a week 8 clans got the hammer from a server and almost all the bases of the server were dev wiped.
but from the people who got dev wiped only 1 or 2 clan deserved it because they did had a foundation spam.
but then it makes you wonder what the hell is considered land claim abuse and what isn’t because clearly the ban reason to generic to know wthat the hell you did wrong.

People who builded in crevice or the dam, people with 1000 pieces or less
clans from 3 to 5 people
and all under the same “ban reason”
“abuse of the building system to block building spots or locations”

But it was not a foundation spam, it was just a base.

@Taemien

Umbrols hasn’t lied. Ignasi hasn’t lied. AndyB hasn’t lied.

about this fact? No, because they ignore the issue completely or i have not seen funcom talk about this for at least 3 months.
and if they did, i would really like to know where.

Do you think i am lying? what do you think i gain from lies? xD
all i want is play officials with just application of the rules, nothing more.