SUGGESTION: Allow "Combat Mode" / Ambush Anywhere

At the moment certain abilities/actions can only be triggered/used in combat mode. So if you can find an enemy on the map, move someone within combat range of that enemy (often a long way from the other 2 team members) and go into combat mode, by pressing space to ambush, you can use them… otherwise not. Solution: allow combat mode any time, without enemies having to be present.

  • This will allow corpse eater after a fight.
  • Allows users to use special movement abilities: e.g. Frog Legs, Super Tendons and Moth Wings to access areas otherwise inaccessible.
  • Allow movement through walls and windows, which you can’t do outside combat.

The only condition when you are denying people access to these abilities otherwise is when all enemies have been eliminated from an area, i.e. hardly ever, and it seems petty not to allow it for this reason.

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There are several places where enemies or keys are a choke point. It’s already a bit of an exploit that you can use frog legs/moth wings to get past these. This change would make it even easier.

I get why it should work, logically, but in the framework of it being a game it’s rather problematic.

Good point but it can be remedied with appropriate level design and I am not sure how the current way of doing things makes it any harder. Whilst there are enemies on the map you can separate one member of the group, get them close to enemies, enter combat more.

The only real exploits come into play when there are no enemies left on the map and you can’t enter combat mode. You could use “corpse eater” on an empty map, for example, but, seriously, that’s a small exploit, indeed.

Yeah, but “appropriate level design” is likely not happening at this stage of the product cycle. Just the reality of it. :slight_smile:

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Can you give an example where this issue, which only makes a difference when there are no enemies on the map, might make a difference?

In the Cutlands, there is a stationary bot blocking you from a section with some special loot. And there are other patroling bots around it you need to pick off before picking it off.

Or you could exploit frog legs and jump over the fence. :smile: Granted, it’s actually logical that you’d just jump over the fence since you’re a mutant after all. But it doesn’t work for the game design.

But can’t you just walk up to anyone of these bots, just outside the range at which they’d detect you and press space to “ambush” and enter combat mode that way? Doesn’t alert any of the enemies, characters can be anywhere on the map … the character who triggers the combat mode can just walk off and never actually engage in combat.

How is this not the same as being able to enter combat mode at will? The only time you can’t enter combat using this method is when there are NO ENEMIES on the map.

What I am saying is that you MUST engage that robot and destroy him in order to reach the area behind him. Unless you enter combat, frog legs over the fence, then disengage. You can then reach the protected area without passing the combat test the developers intended.

And yes, this is currently a big exploit. But it’d be much more noticeable if you could just enter combat without even going over there and performing this one trick that robots hate. For example, I was pretty far in the game before I knew that was an exploit, and actually it was because I read a post here that I realized it. Most players probably won’t. But they are more likely to if you could “ambush” anywhere.

SO what you are saying is that you don’t like people using tactics other than direct combat and that what I am saying would allow you to do what you can do already … and for that reason you don’t like it?

Yes. It makes a game exploit easier.

Much like if you could use a shop bug to duplicate and item and get infinite gun parts. Someone might come on saying they like that because it makes upgrading guns easier without having to go to all the annoying trouble of collecting them everywhere. I don’t think that’s a legitimate reason to break the design of the game. The game is a piece of art, and I respect its integrity.

But you can do it anyway. There’s nothing to stop you doing this. The ONLY time it makes a real functional difference and allows you to do something you can’t do now is when there are no enemies on the map.

It’s not like a bug or exploit, it’s the way the game was designed. I very much doubt the game will be changed so that you can’t do this any more, even if you don’t personally like it. If you think Frogs Legs is an issue… have you ever thought that the ability to skip past some enemies is one of the bonuses for choosing Frog Legs, by design?

Let’s face it: the real casualty of skipping encounters is XP and character development. So an enemy skipped now makes life harder down the road, when you characters don’t have the skills/levels to tackle other, later enemies …

Right, but you’re asking them to make a change. I’m asking for a different change, one that stops you from doing it.

The change would be that if you use frog legs/moth wings, you’ve committed to battle and have to finish it before coming out of combat. The exploit would still be there, but would make it a lot more difficult. You’d have to start a combat you knew you could finish with two stalkers, have the other one go over and frog legs in then the stalkers finish the combat. Then you’d have to get the item that was inaccessible out of combat and the other two stalkers would need to start another fight so the other could frog legs back out again so they’re not stuck (I’ve found the teleporting doesn’t always work when they can’t find the path to you). Or you’d have to fast travel away.

All in all, it would be so much trouble that I think people wouldn’t do it.

Now, if they could find some way to make some invisible walls that went all the way up that didn’t otherwise affect gameplay, I’m fine with your suggestion in that case.

That’s great but that’s not what you originally said. You want this to be a battle game and not an RPG? To reduce options and constrain the way players play… I guess that would be OK … would be a massive change, however. Moreso than anything I was suggesting. Turn it into more of a “combat game”. Turn-based CoD! Let’s face it, if they want to stop people Frog Legging over any particular wall, all they need to do is put an invisible barrier in the game to prevent it, in or out of combat. Not difficult in the Unreal Engine.

IMO, however, there’s already a built-in penalty for not engaging in combat and that is that you miss out on the experience, and your characters go forward at a lower level and without any gear you might have gained from fights. I went back and hoovered up any combats I’d missed whenever I found the going tough at whatever point I’d reached.

The vast majority if combats can be avoided even without combat mode on most of the maps, so I had plenty to come back to lol!

Meanwhile, allowing combat mode at any time would allow people to jump through windows, climb to the top otherwise inaccessible areas for reconnaissance, exploration and so on…

I’m not sure what you think I originally said. At least, I know what I mean by what I said, but I’m not sure what meaning you’re taking from it.

I want it to be more of an RPG. RPG’s often have choke points like this.

I’m also not sure why you think it would be a massive change, as that’s the way the game is probably played by 99% of the players. You think they’re frog-legging over fences?

It’s more about progression, though. You might get to an area to get a better weapon/armor, then go back and do the fight you were supposed to do when it was more of a challenge.

No need to get Angry. Role playing games usually allow a series of different options, stealth to “run and gun”. Seems to me you want to force the latter on people, which would be a massive change in tone from what is, at the moment, quite a thoughtful game. If the devs do want choke points then they can make them, whether you have combat mode or not, just by making frog legs unable to get over some objects. Like I said “appropriate level design”.

Tell you what looks a bit more exploity to me, the stealth ranges within combat. e.g. in the final confrontation before going into the final area, I was able to stunlock and pick off both robots with silent weapons equiped with EMP mods without alerting any of the other characters standing just a few feet away. Again I can only assume that’s what the devs wanted but it looked a bit daft when a massive robot explodes and nobody reacts. I’d have different detection ranges for different deaths, so an explosion is much bigger thab killing a person silently. Similarly, in Mutant Year Zero 2, I’d add some mechanic for enemies becoming alerted and their detection range increasing if they discover a corpse/wreckage, maybe even radioing nearby enemies to alert them too; which would make corpse eater an extra useful skill to have (as it would hide corpses permanently) though I’d also give player characters the ability to move and hide corpses, where possible… !

I’d also have enemies continue on patrol paths inside combat, maybe at only a square (or two?) each turn but it’d add to the combat in steal situations … putting players under a time pressure as a patrolling enemy approaches.

I’m not angry. Not sure what to tell you since you keep misreading me. shrug