The fate of the Witch-Queen... and Razma

In the interest of brevity and keeping the thread on-track with the Witch Queen, I’ll give a short answer rather than the long one :joy:

I think TEL is likely in The Dreamlands. Accessible through the real world via a series of strange routes and unknown gates, but likely not on the exact same plane of existence as the rest of the world. I made a video about it a little while ago

I will gladly watch it :blush:, thanks a million for the reply brother, it’s really appreciated.

Ah yes, I forgot about the ‘lay with beasts’ part of her dialogue. As you say, only one data point, but still relevant. I would note that ‘lying with beasts’ is very much in keeping with the cult of Derketo, and doesn’t necessarily mean that they successfully bred with them. But it also doesn’t preclude that possibility either. To my mind the Grey Apes remain the ‘true’ descendents of the Lemurians within the Exiled Lands - with the faction being unrelated later peoples who have chosen to take on the name. But how exactly they got that way :man_shrugging: maybe it was through breeding after all, rather than merely collapse back to barbarism and beyond - though I still think the latter is well in keeping with REH.

I recall one of Razma’s journals, says that she visited the Archivist’s lair in the Unnamed City and she had a vision of Xel-Ha.

She indeed must reference the map room in journal No. 8:

“I told them of the vision I had in the ruined city. Of the room, nestling beneath the secret heart of the ruins. Of the map, which shows the land that traps us. Of the gems, which can free us all.”

The fact that she has visions from pretty early on may be significant. Maybe she found the mask much earlier, or maybe she’s a seer of some sort. That may have contributed to the Mask possessing her. Maybe the possession was not a power of the mask, but of Razma, and when she touched the mask, she had a possession-like vision of its previous owner?
That would hint and the Witch Queen being one person, not a series of persons only connected by the mask.
It would also explain why the Mask doesn’t seem to have much use or effect in the time since the Witch Queen’s death. If the Giant Kings had had access to it and it was a memory storage device, they would most certainly have one of their slaves wear it to extract the Witch Queen’s knowledge. If that had happened, Klael would probably know what exactly happened at Shattered Springs, as that must have been at the top of his mind.
Also, I don’t remember any artifacts of that power in any Conan story, but indeed, there are characters that lived thousands of years. So maybe that’s the more REH-like conclusion, and we have one Witch Queen surviving for thousands of years.

Regarding Xultan: I admit, the technology and magic of Lemurians may be more advanced than I assumed. Razma seems to have restored parts of the palace in a short amount of time, and if one imagines several of the living statues in her palace helping to build a city, that would speed up the process a lot. Still, it’s quite an undertaking during a war, as DanQuixote explained.

If the Lemurians in the jungle are actual Lemurians, if the Grey Apes are former Lemurians and so on… hard to say.
I assume that the Lemurians are descendants of the original ones, as I don’t understand why and how anyone would (re)create their clothing/armor style. If there wasn’t somebody to create new sets, it would all have degraded in the jungle climate by now.
Doesn’t mean that some of the Grey Apes aren’t former Lemurians. Would fit REH’s assumtions of evolution and evolution, and they are more intelligent than mere beasts. So I think it’s most probably that some Lemurians possibly fornicated with the abundant gorillas in the jungle, but most certainly devolved to Grey Apes. Others kept their human form and some of the Lemurian culture.
I think it’s weird that they’re hostile to any Exiles coming to their land, as they should welcome humans to fill their dwindling ranks. During the war with the Giant Kings, they must have learned that there’s strength in numbers, and the jungle seems abundant enough to harbor more people than the handful of Lemurians.
But maybe they had violent encounters with the Black Hand pirates and now mistrust all other humans.

I can’t find that one on the wiki - though I do recall something similar - maybe it is not one of Razma’s Journals but another one of the bits of lore that we are getting mixed up with it? She definitely has some visions - first outside the Arena, where she dreams of being among the Giant-Kings, and then again the first time she visits the Unnamed City and Jakkad is taken by ‘a winged demon’. At the start of her seventh journal she continues to talk about the many visions she experienced there, although she has now been taken out of the city by Dogs of the Desert. But again these visions seem to be of Giant-Kings and their slaves rather than the other side of the war. And then she wants to go back to the Unnamed CIty, which is what leads into her eighth journal and the expedition she leads from Sepermeru - which presumably ends with her finding the mask.

But I really do think I remember something very similar to what you are recalling, I just can’t place it. I’ll have to do some more research, probably tomorrow at this point, and see if I can find it somewhere on the wiki in one of the other texts.

Yes, certainly a vision of the map-room, but not quite the vision of Xel-Ha restored that RedLynx and I seem to be remembering somewhere. It’s an odd one :man_shrugging:

I think that certainly would have happened, if the Giant-Kings and their slaves were still there if/when the mask arrived. But maybe the Witch-Queen (whehter one or many) outlasted the war. Then perhaps by the time the mask came to the city, Klael would have no-one to put it on - if it even came to him (though who else would be left by that point?).

It’s hard to come up with a logic for why Razma would abandon her expedition to the City if that wasn’t where she found the mask. But also hard to see how the mask could have been there and not been used by the Giant-Kings if it arrived before they fell. Needs some thought. :slight_smile:

Fantastic video, thanks a million.

Now, just to close the dreaming conversation without more derails because @Khaletohep will kill me and she’ll be right :laughing:.

A crazy scenario!

The dreamers said-claimed that they dreamed, but our character have seen none… Because it’s our dream none others.
It’s not them that they are in prisoned, they are puppets of the creator, we are alone in this prison dealing with ghosts that the creator placed so we won’t understand that we are dreaming (after all the game was created for single player).
Yet it could be considered as living hell, a mind torture from the one who place us in this situation.
The worst plot of this plan, is that the creator is giving us hope of escape, but there’s none, because after you pass the green wall you find your self in an endless, empty desert.

Wicked.

Some more thoughts and a question:

  • At some time before or during the war, the Priest King fathered (or created) Tyros, the Kinscourge.
  • Tyros married Telith (Telith - Official Conan Exiles Wiki), the daughter of the Witch Queen.
  • Telith bore two children.
  • So Telith must have been of child-bearing age, let’s say 15 to 35.
  • As she is the daughter of the Witch Queen, we can deduce a mininum and maxium age of the Witch Queen during the events: If a late bloomer - unusual for royalty in our world, but possible - she could have been 70 years of age at maximum during the betrayal of Tyros. The migration from Lemuria, the settling of the jungle, starting a war - I say not possible withint that timeframe.
  • The fact that the Witch Queen had a daughter of child-bearing age also makes it impossible that she was undead, as the dead in common fantasy tropes - including Funcom’s Conan world, I assume - cannot bear children.
  • So, her unnatural long live span must have other reasons.
  • She may have used some sort of magic. The Witch Queen was, accordring to her, an “apprentice to the cult of Dagon”. She may have learnt some magic, but I doubt that an apprentice would have access to such powerful magic. If they had, there would be little need for apprentices; immortality is poison for the job market.
  • She may have done something desperate during the cataclysm or the following events, and who would blame her? But maybe, there is a simpler reason.
  • Because.. What kind of immortality do we associate with Dagon?

Was the Witch Queen a Deep One?

  • The Deep Ones (or fish folk or Innsmouth people) are, at least in Lovecraftian lore, immortal. In fact, Father Dagon and Mother Hydra are said to be just really, really old Deep Ones.
  • They are born looking like humans, and later evolve more and more into fish folk form. The “hybrids” we see in the Dagon dungeon probably are Deep Ones during their transformative phase.
  • The Witch Queen must have had somewhat human proportions, not the bloated anglerfish form of the Deep Ones we encounter in the dungeon. Why? Their fat ■■■■■ would’t fit on her throne, that’s why.
  • However, nothing stops her from having looked a bit fishy. The Lemurians were worshippers of Dagon and would have seen that as a good thing, a sign of royalty or Dagon’s blessing.
  • She may also have used illusion magic to disguise her form. Illusion wouldn’t hide the size of her ass from her throne, but maybe scales and weird eyes from her people.
  • She may also have used magic to slow down the transformation
  • The Witch Queen seems, from little we can hear from her, a bit weird. She talks of “being mother of your race”, similar to “Mother Hydra”, and somehow, she seems a bit delusional, grandiose, obsessed or fanatical to me. That would fit very well with her not being truely human. Being an immortal queen in a war with living false gods would make you a bit weird in the head without being of fish ancestry, I assume, but if she had a streak of inborn “otherness”, it would make her strange decisions a bit more plausible. Even starting the war against the Giant Kings seems like madness. The Lemurians gave them a good fight, but they must have realized that they were fighting against all odds. Without the betrayal of the serpentpeople, the Giant Kings would have won fair and square.
  • The animosity with the Serpentpeople would still be possible, and maybe even more plausible. Dagon and the Deep Ones are followers of Cthulhu, a Great Old One, whereas the Serpentpeople probably follow Set, an Elder God, or possibly Nyarlahotep, an Outer God. The mythos gods and their followers are all evil(ish), but generally not allied with each other. If she is not only follower, but a descendant of Dagon and his people, it might explain why she gambled away the lives of her human subjects to destroy an ancient species rivalling her true kin, the Deep Ones.

We might know more if we could see Telith’s ghost. Maybe she has Innsmouth people eyes. Or maybe she’s a bloated Deep One, and Tyros had a very weird taste in women.

So, was this whole thread a ploy to complain about Telith’s Ghost still missing? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. We will never know.

But what do you think: Could the Witch Queen have been not only an apprentice of Dagon, but a member of his people?

In reference to the Witch Queen’s lifespan, I know I’ve read before something about the Witch Queens living far longer than average Lemurian humans. Unfortunately I can’t find a source for it at the moment, but I’m certain I’ve read it before.

The concept of The Witch Queen being a Deep One is, in my mind, as possible as it is otherwise. There’s very little evidence of it, though being worshippers of Dagon it’s of course not impossible.

You truly do bring up the most important part, where is Telith’s Ghost???. As you well know, it’s my proverbial white whale to eventually see her in-game. She could potentially answer some of these questions, or just sing about The Kinscourge. At this point, I’ll take either :joy:

Arr, young lad, I’ve been hunting that devil for many years now, and I tell you: You may never lay eyes on her, but you do loose your soul on that hunt.

I’m keeping my hopes up, despite it all :joy: It likely won’t be too long until I mention her in a video again

Doesn’t her ghost appear high in the air above Telith’s Island? In the past I heard the humming/droning sound ghosts make, but saw nothing.

Unfortunately not. There is a ghost just off the coast of Telith’s Island that will drift through the water, sink, and reveal a ghost chest. Telith’s Ghost has long been missing though, likely since some point in the Early Access to Full Release transition

There are some people who claim to remember seeing the ghost, probably during alpha, but nobody seems to have any screenshots or video. Funcom - in my recollection, but I cannot find it - said they actually looked for her, but couldn’t find any files for her.

I’ve been looking for and posting about here for some years now, to no avail. Eradication later made a video about it. Some information is posted here:

My current impression is that there was a ghost, but with no voice files. That would explain why they cannot find any files - if it was a generic ghost with no text, there’d be no identifiable information about her. And it would also explain why the ghost was removed: It was only half-done, so they removed it before release.

One player has recolletion about a song, though:

It’s a mystery.

Sadly, that seems to be the case for many lore elements. How, for example, did a part of the Sandstone get to be eaten by a large crocodile? There are so many loose ends in the story…

If I knew how to mod, I’d like to finish all the wholes in the lore. Xevyr, Hosav and others have fixed many of the mechanical elements of this game. But the lore… oh dear.

Wow!
This is really a long read so far, but absolutely worthwhile!
Thank you all so far!
And no, you are not paranoid. You all are followed by now! :smiley:

This is Tephra’s gross mistake, and I don’t even know why he insists on it.
Razma in the Sepermeru directly says that she will go to Shem, to the homeland, which is located north of the EL. That is, this is a direct indication that EL have geographical localization in the Hiborean world - presumably, within the limits of Stygia.

having now the compass, I realized, that the sun actually rises in the south of the map (compass)…since magnetic poles can shift (not in that way though), but direction of sun rises would not, I came to the conclusion that the jungle lies in the actual north and Sepermeru in the south. It also needs to be somewhat near Stygia and the size of the Exiled Lands themselves is TINY on a world map somewhere around 50 sqkm.
I found a map that shows a large lake (Lake Zuad) next to snow covered mountains just south of Stygia.
EL “sea” is sweet water, since you can drink it and connected to the ocean even, which explains the stranded pirates.
It is also next to Darfari territory, which seem to be native to most of the EL.

Well it is an attempt to an explanation triggered by the realisation that the sun rises in the south.
The evs stated though that the Exiled Lands are in fact not in Hyboria. My head canon doesn’t like that statement, but it is what it is.

I’d certainly love to finally find Telith’s ghost and hear her song - never been an option in the time I’ve been playing.

On a related note - I’d also love Imi’s Cradle to get its whispers back. They were the most effectively creepy thing in the Exiled Lands, and it seems a real shame that they were deleted for some reason. (The devs never actually stated that they were removed deliberately - I wonder if their absence might just be another unreported bug because we all just assumed they were removed for a reason…)

I’m not sure, but I could bet, that in the beginning it were so, that if you came near the runestone on Telith’s Island, a ghost stepped out of the stone and then simply stood there…