Arrows: Bugs, balance and suggestions

[Asteria]

After some more testing in the new and some old arrows I have a lot suggestions and bug reports to make. Some of those may be relevant because of the other topic I made, but I feel its important put everything together:

1. Light Arrows: Its a really fun arrow, I love the concept but this arrow has some huge problems:

• The arrow constantly passes through ground, walls and sometimes enemies. I would say its close to a 70% collision failure on terrain, making it extremely annoying stick it to a surface so the arrow can do its job, which is illuminate
• The arrow light lasts too little, its already a pain get an arrow stuck in the terrain, then it doesnt even last long enough
• Very high material cost for a cosmetic / limited purpose arrow
• Very high weight, as much as the most powerful arrows in the game… why?? Its a very situational arrow, not even used for combat, why it has to weight so much? 12.5 for a stack of 25 arrows!
• 25 cap stack size, this small stack size serves no purpose other than mess up inventory. All archers use their arrows in the hotkey bar and they always consume inventory arrow first.

2. Poison arrow: Very useful arrow, very good arrow indeed, but I see a exploit problem in this arrow should be fixed

• The weakness of this arrow should be the fact its extremely dangerous for the user if shoot at close range, the gas does a lot damage. But using a sandstorm mask nullifies all this danger, people can simply shoot this arrow and dance in circles making enemies die all around them… This arrow should be changed into something like Acid Arrow, so the acid smoke particles should damage everybody no matter is they are protected against gas
• There is a problem with the smoke and sometimes shooting a new arrow doesnt create a new cloud, it makes an existing cloud refresh (another existing cloud actually disappears and reappears in the same location)
• 25 cap stack size, this small stack size serves no purpose other than mess up inventory. All archers use their arrows in the hotkey bar and they always consume inventory arrow first.

3. Ivory arrow: No idea what was Funcoms intention with this arrow, it has low damage, low armor penetration and costs valuable material, Ivory. Its totally worthless as it stands

4. Tar arrow:

• The slippery effect is pointless in PvE and PvP, in PvE enemies are immune to it, making this arrow more dangerous for the player than the NPCs. The tar should have the opposite effect imo, it should slow enemies down. This way this arrow could be used to slow enemies and give the archer a longer shooting window, or simply be used to help the archer run away, slowing the target and building distance between.
• The material cost is also extremely high for the limited usage
• 25 cap stack size, this small stack size serves no purpose other than mess up inventory. All archers use their arrows in the hotkey bar and they always consume inventory arrow first.
• There is a problem with the surface and sometimes shooting a new arrow doesnt create a new tar surface, it makes an existing one refresh, just like poison arrow

5. Healing arrow: The idea is interesting but honestly I cant see this arrow uses in PvE or PvP. It has a high material cost, heals friends and foes… people would do better using their own healing items than standing in this EXPENSIVE cloud

6. Explosive arrows: Now thats another complicated arrow and I think its all because of the material cost. Just like Healing arrow it takes Dragonpowder, a LOT! (3 for 5 arrows with no thrall) and its just too hard find any reasonable application for this, unless its a very specific PvP usage, to break walls you cant naturally reach…

• The damage is high but not on pair with the ridiculous high materal cost.
• The explosion damage from poison arrow is also not on pair with the ridiculous high material cost.
• The flame from Tar arrow is again not on pair with the ridiculous high material cost.
• I cant tell this, but I suspect even the PvP siege usage is not on pair with the ridiculous high material cost…

As I mentioned, I think the material cost is the biggest problem with this arrow, because its fun, its versatile in both PvP and PvE but the material cost… is simply not worth it! This arrow should be split into two, Explosive Arrow for PvE and Siege Arrow for PvP

The PvE arrow should use Brimstone and Volatile Gland to craft, nerf the arrow damage slight a bit and it would work. Keep Dragonpowder for PvP but also reduce its cost… 3 for 5 arrows is just absurd

7. Blunted arrows: Dont do Stamina damage, it will kill the target and not knock it down as its should do. Altho the tooltip says 1 damage this arrow will do something like a Ironhead arrow will do.

8. High end tier arrows: Hardened steel, Starmetal and Serpent man arrows… these arrows suffer from compatibility problems and high material cost problem. Hardened steel and starmetal are rare and time consuming material to gather. Spending it by tons shooting these arrows is just really painful, specially because Hardened Steel and Starmetal arrows are not that powerful… but honestly, even if they were powerful, shooting Starmetal gives a lot second toughts, just like Hardened steel its a long process and nobody wants to toss it away missing arrows. Then you have Serpentman arrows, sure its a recipe you learn in the Volcano, but it beats both arrows in damage and only takes iron to craft!

We dont want to 1 shoot everything for no cost but we also dont want to spend a LOT materials shooting. When you look at the many material cost of all arrows its almost justified have the “basic” arrow (I carry poison arrow, light and explosive arrows for situations, but I mainly use serpent man) cost less, but they also need to be efficient.

Funcom you have many arrows and plenty unbalanced things to make them fair, for the better or for the worse. You really need to start looking at those things, melee is really overpower imo. Archery is the closest to combat balance in this game, you have a progression, in both attribute and access to materials so you can become a strong archer. You need to spend materials, you endanger yourself using light armor, you have to aim and save stamina, you have to dodge… it does take skill. But Melee in the other hand is too efficient even at low str, all it takes is a good armor, a good weapon then you can just trade blows and kill everything.

[Jens_Erik]

Wow, you’ve certainly done your due dilligence! Thank you for taking the time to test the new specialist arrows and for writing down your thoughts. I’m going to address some of the things you mention in your post:

@Asteria

1. Light Arrows: Its a really fun arrow, I love the concept but this arrow has some huge problems:

Light Arrows are meant to act as a way to illuminate environments at a distance. They are not really damage tools. Perhaps this function is too niche, but we thought it would be a cool touch to add them. Not every element of the game must have a competitive or purely functional purpose and having toys/roleplay elements is also an important aspect of a sandbox environment. We will reduce the crafting cost of Light Arrows to better reflect their impact on gameplay.

@Asteria

2. Poison arrow: Very useful arrow, very good arrow indeed, but I see a exploit problem in this arrow should be fixed

I will bring your feedback to the team Not “stacking” the gas clouds are intended, since it helps with server performance. We understand that it’s not particularly realistic, but sometimes we need to make some concessions to make the game perform better.

@Asteria

3. Ivory arrow: No idea what was Funcoms intention with this arrow, it has low damage, low armor penetration and costs valuable material, Ivory. Its totally worthless as it stands

Thank you for the feedback. The intention was to give players more arrows to play with.

@Asteria

4. Tar arrow:

Tar arrows can be used in conjunction with explosive arrows to create large fields of fire that keep burning for a long time. It does a lot of damage

@Asteria

• Healing arrow: The idea is interesting but honestly I cant see this arrow uses in PvE or PvP. It has a high material cost, heals friends and foes… people would do better using their own healing items than standing in this EXPENSIVE cloud

It’s pretty good to have in case you run out of healing items, though. I also want to repeat my point about the Light arrows: having toys/roleplay elements is also an important aspect of a sandbox environment. I think some players would find this to be a neat roleplaying tool.

@Asteria

5. Explosive arrows: Now thats another complicated arrow and I think its all because of the material cost. Just like Healing arrow it takes Dragonpowder, a LOT! (3 for 5 arrows with no thrall) and its just too hard find any reasonable application for this, unless its a very specific PvP usage, to break walls you cant naturally reach…

The cost of explosive arrows is very high because it has to match their very high level of power. While it’s true the main function of explosives is PvP, it is not the only function. They do not have to be cost effective in every situation as long as they are in some situations.

@Asteria

• Blunted arrows: Dont do Stamina damage, it will kill the target and not knock it down as its should do. Altho the tooltip says 1 damage this arrow will do something like a Ironhead arrow will do.

We are looking into the issues the community has reported regarding Blunted Arrows. There was a bit of a technical hurdle we needed to bridge in order to fix those. The intention is that they act as ranged truncheons, letting you knock enemies out from afar.

@Asteria

Funcom you have many arrows and plenty unbalanced things to make them fair, for the better or for the worse. You really need to start looking at those things, melee is really overpower imo. Archery is the closest to combat balance in this game, you have a progression, in both attribute and access to materials so you can become a strong archer. You need to spend materials, you endanger yourself using light armor, you have to aim and save stamina, you have to dodge… it does take skill. But Melee in the other hand is too efficient even at low str, all it takes is a good armor, a good weapon then you can just trade blows and kill everything.

We are going to be revamping the bows to bring them back to the way they used to be, but our main focus for combat in Conan Exiles has been the melee damage. We want to make bows viable to use for the players who want to use them, but don’t expect to be able to play a fully ranged character. Sooner or later you will need to grab a melee weapon.

Thanks again for the feedback. I’ve sent it off to the dev team

[Asteria]

Thanks Jens, but you missunderstand some of my intentions.

For example, I understand the idea of the Light arrows, its really nice and fun, you guys did it right adding this arrow! Its niche is not as restricted as you suggested, there is night time and caves those arrows are really fun and useful… The problem is not the restricted niche, is the other things I mentioned. The high cost, the bug it wont stick on surfaces most the time, it lasts too little and the extreme weight… these problems make the arrows punishing to use. We end spending too many arrows in a matter of minutes and they have all these problems, from weight to material cost, from bug it wont stick to how little it lasts.

The explosive arrow for example, it can be used with other arrows like Poison and Tar. The damage from fire or explosion are good, but just not worth the material cost, Dragonpoweder… I could use demonfire orbs and not an explosive arrow for that, this is the problem.

[Vvanskil]

@Asteria

I cant tell this, but I suspect even the PvP siege usage is not on pair with the ridiculous high material cost…

It’s not worth it for PvP sieging. For sustained damage to structures it just makes it far too expensive once you hit hardened brick. The regular siege options, bombs and trebuchets, are so much better. Even using them to poke the structure to force the defenders to use resources to repair but the resources to repair are easily gathered in comparison. Maybe a 30-50% increase to quantity produced would better even it out?

[Asteria]

@Jens_Erik

I will bring your feedback to the team Not “stacking” the gas clouds are intended, since it helps with server performance. We understand that it’s not particularly realistic, but sometimes we need to make some concessions to make the game perform better.

Yes I understand, stacking gas clouds would be dangerous for performance, but apparently there is a bug and sometimes a new arrow will refresh an old gas/tar you placed elsewhere. Nothing happens in the location the new arrow hit, instead another gas/tar surface elsewhere gets refreshed

It should clear out the old gas/tar and add a new one, dont you think?

[Nuria]

First off: I had been really sceptical because of those special arrows.
With stacking of aoes having been turned off, that sounds well enough to me. (Having thought of 10 times stacked healing arrows… Insta refill. )

However for now, I dont see myself ever using one of them except for the poison one. I guess I will use snake, poison and probably serpentmen for direct damage.

@Asteria

Ivory arrow: No idea what was Funcoms intention with this arrow, it has low damage, low armor penetration and costs valuable material, Ivory. Its totally worthless as it stands

Thank you!
I totally thought they were kidding with that one.
They arent even “strong” for their levelrequirement…

@Asteria

I cant tell this, but I suspect even the PvP siege usage is not on pair with the ridiculous high material cost…

I dont know for sure, but I would rather use bombs or treb.
As all aoe effects have been changed to not be stackable anymore (you probably saw one of those threads already?) orbs are only useful to break t1 - maybe t2.
Remember how many bombs are needed for a t3 foundation? I said 20, someone else said its more like 16/17. I didnt check dmg numbers though…

@Asteria

Blunted arrows: Dont do Stamina damage, it will kill the target and not knock it down as its should do. Altho the tooltip says 1 damage this arrow will do something like a Ironhead arrow will do.

Actually… They work perfectly well!
IF you put a blunted weapon mod on the bow you are firing the arrow with.
Iron one with 10 strenght = ~15 arrows per t3 thrall - still a lil low. They used to twoshot with best blunt mod and 10 strenght - then they got nerfed. Was a sidenote and I guess noone really cared about it…

Though I was really sad when the blunt spear was changed to only knock out on throwing… (Because the mod gets deleted when picking that thing up again. If I want to burn my resources, I use arrows. Spear had been a gread alternative to the club… )

And make sure to use a lowlevel bow. Higher bows will deal more damage which causes them to die first. If you can handle crude bows well, just use one of these.

@Jens_Erik

Most of the archery damage comes from the bow and attributes/perks, not from the arrows themselves. We are looking at what we’ll do with Snake Arrows, but it’s likely that they will become mostly poison delivery tools and lose most of their physical damage potential.

Then again I think there are waaaay too many arrows.
If an arrow costs a lot, it should deal the damage worth the material.
Currently arrows are more or less like:
Tier 0 = Eighter stone OR bone arrows. “Alternative”: Ymir arrows.
Tier 1 = Iron arrows. Alternatives: Snake arrows, dregs arrows, special I. (+3 dmg)
Tier 2 = Steel arrows. Alternative: Special II. (+4 dmg)
Tier 3 = Hardened steel arrows. Alternative: None (Special III too expensive to use without t4 carpenter.)
(+1 dmg) (!!!)
Tier 4 = Starmetal arrows. Alternatives: Obsidian, Serpentmen, Dragonbone, Special III… (+6 dmg?)

IMO that is way too many direct damage arrows.
It’s been told for archery to be mainly about supporting? Then let archers support!
Eighter inflicting more debuffs or having multiple tiers on them.
Anyway. 12 direct damage arrows with 4 of them being endgame sounds bad…
I did a list of ideas for special effects already, I dont really want to bring that up again.

[Asteria]

@Nuria

As all aoe effects have been changed to not be stackable anymore (you probably saw one of those threads already?) orbs are only useful to break t1 - maybe t2.

lol actually I havent! What do you mean? Like if I throw a gas orb throwing another one will make the previous disappear?

@Nuria

IMO that is way too many direct damage arrows.

Thats one way to resume in a easy and constructive feedback. Way too many direct damage arrows, with too little damage difference but some absurd material cost differences. That means some arrows are simply not used, because are not worth it.

[SaIInS]

1. A stack of arrows in 25 pieces makes sense. You yourself said that poisonous arrows are too imbalanced. I do not agree with this. Stack size should not be changed in my opinion.

2. The mask must protect. Said themselves, the arrows are dangerous. Let them be dangerous, but it is easy to nullify their benefits if prepared. This is normal.

3. Explosive arrows do no good except for mining meteorites. If tar arrows continued to add up, this would be very useful. Incredibly helpful. Especially when you consider that there are players who block the spawning salamanders.

4. Light arrows are useless because of the small radius of illumination. If there were more, then there would be a benefit.

5. Healing arrows are useless if only against the NPC.

6. Stunning arrows are absolutely useless. They do not slow down the NPC, do not replace the slave cudgel. In pvp useless.

IMHO.

On the topic, a very interesting sentence:

Since Archers now need Arrows, how about an arrow box?

I recognized that Archers now need Arrows if they should use other Ammo than Flinthead Arrows. So how about an Arrow Box for Thralls like an Thrall Pot for Food? Because it can be very time-consuming to check hundreds of thralls in lots of different Buildings across the map.

[Nuria]

@Nuria

Actually… They work perfectly well!
IF you put a blunted weapon mod on the bow you are firing the arrow with.

Okay, I have been terribly wrong with that one.
The blunted mod works perfectly well with bows, but the arrows themselves seem to apply no stunning dmg at all.

[Asteria]

@SaIInS

• A stack of arrows in 25 pieces makes sense. You yourself said that poisonous arrows are too imbalanced. I do not agree with this. Stack size should not be changed in my opinion.
• The mask must protect. Said themselves, the arrows are dangerous. Let them be dangerous, but it is easy to nullify their benefits if prepared. This is normal.

A stack of 25 serves no purpose, every archer uses multiple arrows in their hotkey bar so they can change ammunition in one click. The system is smart enough to use all stacks on inventory before depleting the one you use in the hotkey… So this limitation server no other purpose but add inventory slots, you wont bother with the stored arrows in your pack, it doesnt matter if its 2 stacks of 100 or 8 stacks of 25, all that matters is the single stack you keep in the hotkey.

I didnt say poison arrow are imbalanced, they are strong (probably one of the strongest arrows in game because it is AoE) but this strength comes with the cost it should not be used at close range, or the gas will kill you. That is what makes this arrow balanced, its strong but it cant be abused. Wearing a sandstorm mask is barely being “prepared”, its one simple, basic item that can turn a strong arrow into an exploitable arrow. Shoot a single arrow on your feet and watch all enemies die around you while you keep walking in circles avoiding their attacks but keeping them inside the cloud.

@SaIInS

Explosive arrows do no good except for mining meteorites. If tar arrows continued to add up, this would be very useful. Incredibly helpful. Especially when you consider that there are players who block the spawning salamanders.

Yes, shooting another tar arrow on existing fire doesnt ignate the tar, its not logical. Forces us to use a explosive arrow for every tar arrow and it should not be like this. Also tar set on fire doesnt create any light source, its just flame but no bright. Also should be fixed.

[SaIInS]

About poisonous arrows. Your arguments are not arguments. If something is too strong for you, take it and use it, but do not ask to remove it. Special thanks to whiners about the armor of the Legion, as well as the Acheron spear.

No need to ask for something to remove because it is too difficult for you. No need to ask for something to change, if it is too easy for you. This appeal is not specifically to you, but in general to all. To all who can not make a balance for themselves. Playing in a single game or on a personal server. Try to survive on the official servers. Especially pvp. It is easy for them.

To the topic. Poisonous arrows are a good resource. A sand mask is the same as a shield against a spear. Let’s remove the shield, eh?
I think the idea is clear.

About fiery, yes. Checked Mining meteorites by them is complete idiocy.

Fire arrows are useless. Too expensive for this use. Essentially no damage. Indulge only. But alright.

[Asteria]

@SaIInS

About poisonous arrows. Your arguments are not arguments. If something is too strong for you, take it and use it, but do not ask to remove it. Special thanks to whiners about the armor of the Legion, as well as the Acheron spear.

No need to ask for something to remove because it is too difficult for you. No need to ask for something to change, if it is too easy for you. This appeal is not specifically to you, but in general to all. To all who can not make a balance for themselves. Playing in a single game or on a personal server. Try to survive on the official servers. Especially pvp. It is easy for them.

Nobody is asking this arrow to be removed, but it needs to be balanced. Its a strong arrow and needs mechanics to avoid being exploitable.

1. You dont need any points in accuracy to take full advantage of this arrow, the poison damage is the same if you have 0 or 50 acc.
2. It only takes ichor to craft (and feathers). Every player has infinite access to ichor using shellfish traps.
3. The poison cloud damage is really high if somehow you manage to keep targets inside for the full length, 2 arrows can kill an elephant!
4. Shooting at close range is dangerous, the poison arrow WILL damage the player and the damage is high.

That seems balanced at first, it is a strong arrow but it cant be used at close range. An DoT (as long target stay inside the cloud) AoE arrow, but it should be hard keep enemies inside the cloud for the full length. But all this can be nullified and players can easily take full advantage of this arrow. Sandstorm mask prevents all damage.

An example: Wear a mask, pull multiple enemies, shoot 1 arrow, stay inside the cloud, rise your shield, wait and profit. For minimum cost (1 cloud does enough damage to kill every humanoid in the game) and no damage. Due to this exploitable mechanics I suggested this arrow to change to do acid damage, not gas damage, then sandstorm masks would no longer make you immune and able to nullify the only real downside of this arrow.

[SaIInS]

According to your stories, I can say with confidence that you have not played on normal pvp servers.

The shield makes its way perfectly from the back. No one bothers to put your opponent on a mask and strike you around the balls.
I still do not see any arguments against these arrows.

Also, you will not be stopped if you shoot a fiery arrow into a poisonous cloud so that you yourself explode inside. You may also be trapped. Just learn the strategy.

[Asteria]

@SaIInS

Also, you will not be stopped if you shoot a fiery arrow into a poisonous cloud so that you yourself explode inside. You may also be trapped. Just learn the strategy.

A player with only 40% damage reduction will take ridiculous 75 HP damage from gas explosion, thats is faaaaar from being a real danger. The poison tick in the other hand does 30 damage per second (with no armor reduction, armor class mitigates this damage)

That is high enough to kill an elephant using just 2 arrows, imagine how much damage it can do to archer thralls stuck on limited spaces or packed fighter thralls in PvP servers? Even if someone decides to waste dragonpoweder shooting an explosive arrow when you are exploiting this arrow, staying inside the cloud and letting it wipe all enemies around you, it wont be enough to even endanger yourself.

[Vvanskil]

@Asteria

Wear a mask, pull multiple enemies, shoot 1 arrow, stay inside the cloud, rise your shield, wait and profit.

There was a player somewhere that posted a mad bomber/mad alchemist build long before this arrows concept came to fruitation. He would drop gas, wear a mask, and block with a shield. He himself said it’s time consuming and expensive to keep up a build like this as a regular means of damage. I don’t see this as being exploitive because it is a strategy. The poison arrows using ichor over the puffball mushrooms might be a hindsight on their part and Asteria is right it’s simply way too cheap. Maybe adding the puffball back or finding a mix between the two could bring it to a more consumption vs profit balance?

[Asteria]

@Vvanskil

There was a player somewhere that posted a mad bomber/mad alchemist build long before this arrows concept came to fruitation. He would drop gas, wear a mask, and block with a shield. He himself said it’s time consuming and expensive to keep up a build like this as a regular means of damage. I don’t see this as being exploitive because it is a strategy.

Well, if people have tested and came with this feedback then its an important one. I was afraid it would be much easy and efficient and become an exploit. Dont get me wrong, I think the arrow is balanced, the damage, the materials, the weight… it takes a full minute kill an elephant using this arrow and any high level melee can kill it much faster for no material cost.

But this arrow has one downside, that is the damage it can do to the user. Overcoming this seemed like the perfect ground for exploits, but I have to agree, playing like this, holding a shield and letting the poison gas kill everything seems just extremely boring and limited, its viable? Sure. Will people really do that? Now I dont think so… its definitely not fun and will limit the player gaming experience.

[Vvanskil]

I have thought about it with gaseous orbs before this and even now it’s only a thought. But as you said it’s just out right boring.

[Diemex]

Explosion arrows are handy.

When trying to mine starmetal exposives often roll away or something silly after being activated and are wasted. With the boom arrows you dont have that issue.