Balancing Act done right?

For years I have watched the forum and Dev Streams and one of the key points of the devs improvement of CE is balance. However update after update I get the feeling the devs have forgotten the fundamental definition of the word balance so here is a reminder followed by a few examples.

BALANCE: Two opposing forces in equal measure. A Yin and Yang working in harmony supporting each other while also restraining each other within a set limit.

Example 1.
Since the birth of CE thralls have been the primary base defense and raid deterrent its opposite was players with the right skills and gear.

This balance has been broken. With the nerfing of thralls they now pose little to no challenge against even poorly geared players with limited skills. By this you have tipped the scales in favor of the attackers.

Solution: I understand and agree with the purpose of the thrall nerf but to make the player more of the focus this adjustment should have been made in tandem with a new or improved base defense system that does NOT require player control. A few examples being ballista turrets that thralls can operate, persistant traps such as arrow walls flame floors or bladed pendulums, or statues that spawn spells when an enemy gets within proximity.

Example 2:
With the introduction of sorcery and the corruption system. I have seen only a few counter balances. For instance though sorcerers are reduced to 50% of HP and stam the perks from corrupted attributes make them extremely dangerous at any range. The perceived counter to this would be an archer but with spells like darkness, undead fog, and invisibility at makes hitting the target unlikely.

Solution:
There are both corruption and cleansing brew, weapons that cause corruption. I say why not implement cleansing orbs and arrows that act like their poison counter parts. This would not cause damage only create a cloud that would rapidly cleanse the corruption of players within the cloud. Or rather create an opposing Blessed Attribute system. Rather than using corruption and sacrificed souls the player uses religious zeal and prayer to “Bless” their attribute perks.

I know there are more instances of improper counter balance but will leave those for the rest of the community to submit preferably with a proposed solution.

For legal purposes:
I of sound mind and body release my ideas and concepts presented herein to Funcom, and negate myself from any form of legal action in the use of my proposed ideas and concepts by Funcom.

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I always thought an easy option would be a guard buff, thralls on guard are stronger, homeguard advantage, thralls on follow out of their element weaker.

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This would achieve next to nothing as you can not lose the corruption required to support your corrupted attributes.

Technically it wasn’t broken as such, they just forgot that there is no way for a player to give guarding thralls the same buffs they give to following thralls. Otherwise the authority change is a good one, in my opinion.

They should introduce some sort of statue or effigy (similar to the old feeding pot) that would give player characters authority buffs to the thralls within its radius perhaps…

3 Likes

No but it would remove the corruption needed to cast higher tier spells essencially leveling the playing field.

Interesting concept but would negate the purpose funcom had intended as this could very well make thrall more potent than they were before the nerf. That and no way to determine how it would work with multiple clan members running auth spec. Could end up with cumulative effect boosting thralls to world boss strength.

Would it be possible to prevent stacking in the code? Like a check to see if it’s already under the effects of an authority “aura” and only take the highest?

The things mentioned in the OP are in my opinion not exactly the prime examples of “lacking balance” in Conan… those aspects are actually quite okay considering the grand scheme of things, especially the thralls which are probably their best version than they ever were.

This is false btw :slight_smile: At the “birth” of CE… thralls have been nothing but crafting speed boosters and static, non-follower, un-levelable base decorations…

In any case… regarding the issue of base defense… and thralls being weak for it… I don’t think the solution is to buff thralls… I think the solution is to remove the need for offline defenses… by turning off offline raiding… and offline purges… settings for which already exist in the server configuration.
Would you still think thralls are too weak if they didn’t have to defend raiding players / purges when you’re not there?..

I’m just saying… we can’t expect too much from the clunky AI and we don’t really need thralls to be “more healthy” yet again… we would need them to be smarter instead, which I don’t see happening very soon at least, in the meantime the settings from above exist already.

which is why i specifically stated things the way I did. Im not saying thralls need to be buffed or unnerfed quite the opposite in fact. My proposed suggestion was additional means of passive defense in conjuction with the thralls as they are now. As a raider which would you find more deterring? Weak thralls with piss poor AI or traps you could’t see till they dished out 25% of your HP worth of damage?

perhaps but would really want to count on that seeing how unreliable the RNG and similar systems have been in the past?

I think they were saying that if you are corrupted, your corruption cannot go down and therefore are constantly eligible for escalation of the spells regardless of dancer or cleansing brew.

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Imo neither would be truly effective and would end up requiring a lot of hours of development, which currently it seems they’re just not allocating resources to even when it comes to fixing actually crucial things.

I don’t think they could come up with an AI that would be an effective raid defense against a human player offlining you… I honestly don’t see that happening in this lifetime. They “could” make certain improvements here and there definitely, but nothing even close to what that would take. (which would be the equivalent of an improvised PvE dungeon “defending” your base) Not on this engine, not after this many years and after being this involved in a certain direction.

Even the proposal to have a thrall shoot a ballista is way beyond what we’re going to get out of Conan at this point imo. The traps, sure… I mean you have traps already in the game… the gas and the explosive ones that you can place and they could add the spike traps we already have in Warmakers as a player placeable if they really wanted to… However that is not going to stop somebody offline raiding you… they’ll get some damage… casually heal up since there’s no pressure… and carry on…

Even if you get like super defenses and they’re not attentive and actually die to a trap… they can stroll back… get their gear and carry on since you’re not there to stop them and AI is predictable… (in Conan all it takes is standing on a rock and you’re all of a sudden “immune” to melee thralls).

With that being said, sure thing :slight_smile: I wouldn’t mind seeing those things either, I just don’t think we ever will (and that’s me being optimistic), hence why I suggested instead something that is way more realistic and that is flipping a simple switch in the server config and giving out actually working and already implemented offline protection :slight_smile:

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Yeah I noticed that. However that aspect could be modified to account for the effects of cleansing brews and the proposed cleansing orbs/arrows

Sadly they will never implement ORP on official servers as the vast majority of players on official prefer to raid bases offline and would prevent admin from deleting bases in breach of TOS. So its better to propose potential alternatives rather than yelling at the deaf. However considering your input about the raiders returning after being killed, I propose a trap specific respawn timer penalty. For instance each time a trap kills a player it adds a cumulative 2 minute respawn penalty.

No, it wouldn’t. Admins more than likely never join the server to remove a base… they just type commands through rcon to delete everything belonging to a player with a single command. However, regardless of the method they pick, building damage being disabled wouldn’t prevent admin action.

As for this… yes it’s a bit of a double-edged sword :slight_smile: If they prefer offline raiding then everything is fine as it is… we don’t need to come up with solutions to it… if they however don’t… The thing is, offline protection would protect them just as much and the lack of it makes them just as vulnerable… so pick your poison :smiley:

That’s even more development and touching even more systems, so now you’re proposing to rework the death / respawn system too

Again, I’m not trying to shoot down your idea and sure enough, Christmas is close and we can all wish… but even with the best of intentions I cannot see these ever happening sadly, hence why I was proposing a solution that is way more likely.

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I run a private server on xbox with ORP turned on with a designated raid time. Even during raid time and using keyboard console commands ORP prevents deletion of structures of a clan without members online. So either I’m using the wrong admin commands or ORP is specifically set that way.

I haven’t tried that on console, however if that is the case it’s a bug.
It does not prevent rcon commands though which is most likely what they use

Balance is when both sides of an issue are upset.

I remember a little over a decade ago in the MechWarrior Living Legends (mod for Crysis) there was a debate about Aerospace assets. Those who preferred ground combat thought they did too much damage. Those who preferred air thought they were too vulnerable to AA.

The developers settled the issue when they said, “we know we’ve got the balance right when both sides are complaining.” And they were right, those of us who played both air and ground thought they were pretty darn close. It felt right. Of course every side has its own bias. And of course its impossible to please everyone, so don’t try.

In the OP he gives two examples.

For thralls we know we’ve got a sweet spot as people who are anti-thrall still post about how they’re still OP. Let’s be honest… they want thralls for all intents and purposes just be deco. That’s ridiculous. But on the other side, people want thralls to carry the weight. Sorry but that’s just as ridiculous.

As someone who now uses thrall builds and uses non-thrall builds and enjoys them both. I think they’re good. There is some things that irk me about them still, but not their performance. So those issues are beyond the scope of this thread.

For sorcery, we have one side who thinks its absolutely worthless. They believe the corruption simply makes them sitting ducks and won’t touch it. Then you have others who think sorcery allows people to be God’s gift to PVP and become destruction incarnate. You also have people are a bit more moderate on either side. Its about equal on either case.

As someone who has characters engaged in sorcery and not, I think they are likewise fine. Like thralls there is some non-balance issues that irk me and some inconsistencies that prevent the system from being perfect, but for balance discussions those issues go beyond the scope of this thread as well.

At the end of the day the balance of thralls and sorcery is impossible in the eyes of the community. At best you can get bickering on both sides.

One thing I will address directly however:

The opposite to corruption is not being corrupted.

“Crom dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man’s soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?”

“I have travelled far and seen much. From the glittering ice of Asgard to the jungle expanses of the Black Kingdoms, I have been thief, pirate and mercenary. But nowhere have I seen gods as I see them in this land. These avatars that stalk and spread destruction in their wake. These are not gods. These are what men want the gods to be. Weapons.”

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I like this, you could have it as only thralls eating from a thrall pot gets the buff

That seems fair if I can give you corruption to remove your regular perks too…