Combat Overhaul - (Weapon Suggestion "Megathread" too?) - Up to you all

I disagree. A combat system should not be natural except for the basics. You must go into deep analysis to get better if you want to master it.
And I’ll add that what is natural for some people is not at all natural for as many other people. But analysis is the same for all.

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Hardly noticed how long it took xD Just came out on the fly since its some things I was pondering on for a while.

I agree to some extent about a combat system feeling natural. Im somewhere in the middle of that. Designing it or explaining it ofc however can be quite analytical.

If anything I’m thinking that the added stagger system would feel natural and wont be something one thinks of. However, getting into the details is what perhaps will give someone the edge in a situation. Kind of like real life too I guess. We all can pick up a sword and start swinging and stabbing with it (provided it is light enough). Extensive practice however is what will teach someone, on something which already feels natural, how to get the most out of it.

Same goes for simplifying attacks to slash being cripple stab being bleed I think. This way you don’t even have to remember what each weapon does, you see what hits you / coming to hit you and just know.

Idk, I still need to test the bandages idea to see how it feels with bleed. Im thinking that a combat effect that is naturally just a part of the combat (bleeding, crippling, sunder) should not be something that requires external factors so much to overcome. I mean poison for example, lets go realistically on it, is like one is dipping their blade/arrow/whatever into poison. Its a process. Healing/defending from it should also be a process. Said potion, etc.

Healing bleeding fast is a good thing. But it shouldn’t in my opinion be something that heavily requires a process to get rid of or else its a 10 second ordeal (much more actually, that is since last hit. lol).

Counter argument could be ofc, its bleeding, if you are bleeding realistically it should go on for a day and ONLY bandages should stop it :smile: So I guess there can be varying options to that I agree.

Interesting, I hadn’t thought of armours how they would effect stagger as well. Nice. Perhaps light armours could be easier to stun (if say said stagger-threshold is in this case adapted, they have a smaller threshold) but replenish faster (come back out of it sooner), and heavy the opposite. Harder to stagger, takes longer to get out of stun. Hmmm, should make for more interesting choices to armour preference too.

Well, with the delay, again, I dont know how much it will need. Ofc its not something that will take ages and ruin the flow completely. But as you said, the flow of the combat changes drastically, so you need a different weapon. At which point, you switch. Switching back however right away I think is just, well its just me but I think it is really broken. Only weapon that feels much more like it applies a delay is changing to daggers.

You seen some of those videos too? Has spear, tosses explosive jar out, pulls spear out again all in 1-2 seconds. Bad example but you get what I mean (I personally see this as a bad example because it goes into another suggestion I had. Making things like explosives and orbs used like skills. As in, they do not get equipped. Whilst on the weapons you have out you pull an orb out and toss it, and keep fighting.

But for all other changes. Idk, seems too much for me and so unrealistic too. And dont get me wrong, I do it a lot too. Im currently running around (PvE-C, mostly PvE though) with daggers, sword and shield, shield and spear, and usually a 4th option with greatsword too. I love dynamically changing around, but I think (especially in PvP) this creates even less commitment to a fighting style.

Idk, maybe its a silly idea that one. I mean if it works, dont fix it. Just that Ive seen some really annoying confrontations out there that just threw me out of the immersion completely. Even the thralls, for all their broken AI :stuck_out_tongue: feel more realistic on their weapon switch times.

Same here man, Thnx for the response and for taking the time to read through it :nerd_face:

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Yeah I agree with those points too. Im like I said somewhere in the middle of this. It should feel natural, easy to pick up, but have depth when you pull a magnifying glass to it.
Its what differentiates from a brute smacking you with a sword and a samurai that has spent years learning the perfect angle to just lob your head off with one swing :laughing:

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Agree that it needs an overhaul, but only agree with like 25% of your suggestions.

Bleed should remain the same, but increase stamina usage like you suggested for cripple (blood loss=lightheaded=less stamina/passout). The stamima usage increase would have to be much more humble however than what you suggested for cripple, just because bleed is much easier to proc.

Cripple doesn’t need an overhaul, but it does need SIGNIFICANT buffs to make running away a bit more difficult. It’s so easy to run and cripple is super hard to proc+ literally useless rn. Anything less than 3 stacks does nothing, especially with second encumbrance perk. I’d like to see cripples be 50% more effective, and also have every hit on somebody below 20% health give two stacks of cripple. Need a better counter to running away than explosive arrow/bomb tech and gas arrows, it’s wayyyy too easy right now.

Every weapon should have running attacks. These would be used by sprinting and hitting the light attack button. They would do heavy damage even though the input is light (there are uses for heavy attacks out of sprint but not lights) and they would have a longish stun if they miss. Stun should be enough for a runner to gain ground and for a fighter to get a quicker attack in, but not a heavy from something like a greatsword or 2h maul. Sprinting attacks are pretty much what this game’s combat system is missing, alongside stunlock protection and perhaps a parry system, though the parry system would not be as you suggested.

Stunlock protection and armor. This is why heavy armor sucks. Only form of escape in this game is rolling, and heavy armor doesn’t even have a roll so you just get stunlocked by spears and anything with decent range. Heavy armor should have passive super armor. For those unfamiliar with it, it’s immunity to stun until a certain amount of damage or hits are taken. This superarmor would protect against like one or two attacks and regen after maybe 10 seconds. You still take damage from attacks while you have super armor, but you don’t get hit stunned.

Also would like to see some 50/50 mixup combos or something, katana kind of has it but not really. Like if you’re hitting somebody you have one of two options in your combo: a slow, longer range higher damage attack, or a fast short range attacks. So the one in combo either rolls away or waits to see you wind up the stronger attack and then roll. As I said, katana kind of has this but it’s hard to aim the dash attack.

K im burnt out, i had more to say but im going to kms if i type on my phone any more loll

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thnx for the opinions man :wink:

On cripple not needing an overhaul, you then went into mentioning it needs significant buffs, isnt that an overhaul? :laughing: Or you meant, no change in mechanic, just a buff?

Yeah I agree, at times it feels a little useless. My suggestion in terms of realism isnt the best, im simply trying to go by the system already at hand adding only one extra/new variable to be measured, a stun-threshold. It just creates a faster forced out of breath moment which is more potent than crippling really imo.

I notice that you disagree with 25% though :stuck_out_tongue: Cause you mentioned 2 of the 6 things I spoke about :smiley: Or just too tired typing on the phone?

I think a sprinting attack would be nice. Man, javelins should have that end of their combo attack, the jump attack. That would be a great oppenner. This however could ask for new animations on some weapons. I am totally up for such a suggestion and hope they go for it though.

Yeah thats pretty much what I propose with the stun-threshold. It can literally be a measure of how much damage is inflicted/blocked. A smaller percentage can be used of the damage inflicted when blocking (say 50% or something). From there on depending on the armour the amount that is needed to throw you off balance can increase or decrease, indeed making a use to heavy armours.

And the stun-threshold refresh is a figure of speech so we understand the concept, the way it could be done is with just a cooldown number. In which case again I think light armour should be prone to stun sooner but can “refresh” out of it sooner (more agile) where as heavy can be tankier and take longer to get stunned, but being heavier once off balance it could take longer to “refresh” (by longer I dont mean something ridiculous, just a slight increase to balance it out).

Mix up could be nice. Reason I didnt much go into such a suggestion is that it kinda is redundant with this current system. For example, a fighting game has standing and crouching block, the input to how you defend is different each time. Here, blocking is just blocking, no matter what the attack is.

Unless you meant mix up in the sense of slow or fast attacks? So the enemy could be thrown off, thinking you are going to do a slower strong attack, open up for a counter, and yet get surprised with a quick attack instead? That could be interesting yeah. Again, increases how dynamic fights can be :smiley: Might be a bit much vs multiple opponents, but that depends how its used.

What are your thoughts on weapon switch cooldowns and status effects based on attack types? Not a fan of those two suggestions?

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Yes, the current system is really nice:

/s

Weapon switch cooldowns would be great, but maybe not necessarily a cooldown. I’d like to get rid of the unequip tech to avoid recovery for sure, but I also wouldn’t like having a cooldown AND unsheathe delay on top of that. Now that I think about it, perhaps a cooldown would be best afterall, but only if they remove unsheathe delay.

Dumbest example of unsheathe delay is the katana, it has the longest unsheathe delay but it’s a weapon literally made to be drawn quickly.

Status effects based on weapon type would be nice, but I’d still like many of them locked in combo. Daggers would lose pvp viability if sword bled on every hit. Not like anything is viable 100% of the time except for spear 2h mace, but if we overhauled the system, then hopefully every weapon or most weapons would become viable with one or two types being slightly weaker but nothing omnipotent like spears right now.

Cripple doesn’t need an overhaul, just significant buffs to the effect. Should last twice as long and be 50% more effective.

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It is. Clearly I am talking about the mechanics, 1, and 2, if it was perfect I wouldn’t be making suggestions xD

The idea they have going for and the combat system really is nice. It simply needs tweaking imo, even more so balancing, etc. One of the concerns to putting a timed delay to weapon switch (among other reasons) was also the spear/explosive combo/spam.

Weapon balancing from there with added status effects also helps bring the weapons down to a norm between each other and be as side grades or for specific characteristics as opposed to “meta” gameplay.

And I am sure there are other suggestions out there too to make it even better.

Tell me about it, generally some attacks with the Katana feel like he is practicing a kata instead of actually fighting. lol. Way too slow if you ask me.
Id be down for a quick unsheathe attack as well, like in other games. To some extent ive been expecting the same of this game but it doesn’t have it, pressing attack straight up goes to punches. Some other games have a nice quick attack when unsheathing. It can be weaker, but it does the job.

Well, the sword has a few slashing swings too, those will be cripple. And the daggers I mentioned could have both to not make them useless again?

Idk about the cripple man. I was trying to be very lenient with my descriptions to it, but if I am being brutally honest I think its one of the most useless things in the game :rofl: Idk, maybe its just me. But it feels just useless to me, or perhaps because I play more PvE and in PvE, well, it is more useless there. Where as in PvP I guess it can be more useful vs all those “keeping my distance” meta gameplays?

Im just afraid it will be one annoying mechanic to deal with after that (if they make it more potent that is). Going slower still will most get annoying, while dodging is still possible. Was thinking that a much faster stamina depletion would be the way to go, limiting the enemy say to 2 dodges or 1 if they were in fight and having a delay before they can do stuff again.

Also thinking making it more potent will be more annoying for PvE as well :confused: idk. Something to look into for sure though I think.

oh, while on the subject of stamina. forgot to mention. i think the time it needs to start refreshing should be smaller. sometimes with added server delay it feels like ages before the crap starts to refresh :smile:

Nah cripple is useless right now in pvp as well. Only really helps at 5 stacks, stacks are hard af to get, and enc second perk, which is included in most pvp builds, near negates it anyways.

Katana definitely should have a sprint attack that is a quick unsheathe, I could actually use it 100% of the time if I could just catch people who survive.

Yea the bomb spam is what had me rethink my opinion on the cooldown. Bomb placing is annoying af, but also necessary right now just because people can run away so easily lol. I’d for sure like this change if weapons were given sprinting attacks as suggested

Took me 20 minutes to read. I hope they take at least if few of your suggestions. Weapon swap delay is already a thing due to the animations, your keyword is dynamic which reflects realism. We don’t have a cool down timer on swapping irl. Food for thought

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True, I agree to this. However if we are talking about real life, it will take much longer to swap weapons and it would be much more tedious thus something hardly done. Even the Spartans or some other Ancient Greek armies which were among the armies that utilised “weapon switching” went to the short sword when the combat called for it (spear no longer efficient) or they were out of javelins (their initial offensive usually before they switched to sword). It was a one off thing.

Samurai Archers had the Katana they would also switch to when the enemy got too close. etc.

Point being, in most cases it was a one off thing when done.

So something has to give if we are going for realism (but also balance).
If not a cooldown timer, then give an animation (a realistic one at that) that puts one weapon in and doesn’t magically vanish up their behind :smile: and then a more realistic weapon unsheathe animation as opposed to, again, magically appearing in their hand as we get what is an albeit cool “I am swinging my sword around” animation but really not realistic either :stuck_out_tongue:

Dynamic combat that relies on changing weapons around is not dynamic combat imo. It is simply trying to make up for the lack of dynamic combat that each weapon has at that point. I mean again, I do this a lot myself, but mostly cause I can. lol.

It is? I dont play much PvP but I assume as much. Stacking it is indeed hard even in PvE.

Although the Katana was a nice addition (I mostly expected just a greater-sword animation) it does need an overhaul/rethink.

No bomb spam, a cripple that damages stamina so they cant run off, and sprinting attacks. I could really be up for that.

Another idea could also be (with some specific weapons) blocking and attacking at the same time. One of the deadliest strategies behind the shield and spear/javelin was that they used the thrust of the spear while being mostly under-cover. This could play into slower more defensive “keep enemy at bay” attacks, maybe use up more stamina too like heavy attacks, and will work with mostly stabbing weapons I assume (javelin and sword). Limiting the combo one has during this too.

One could really go about the whole strategy of weapon combat in many ways to be honest. I think there is a lot they could do to improve the system. However it feels like it should be done all as a whole. If they start to add bits and pieces here and there it can end up having unbalanced gameplay for a long time till everything is overhauled.

On the subject of shields, what they really need to do is make the shields actually block as intended. Maces, axes, and claws have shieldsmash. But in reality, everything has shieldsmash because blocking attacks doesn’t cancel the combo for some reason. All shields do right now is turn health damage into durability damage, with no given advantage.

I’m 90% sure this is how it was before, but if I’m wrong, correct me. No idea what shieldsmash is supposed to do now

Well, in PvE they do push back the enemy unless the enemy is doing an uninterruptible attack (like the mace heavy attack, or greatsword heavy swings). For players, heavy greatsword swings simply cant be intrupted unlike some other weapons that keep stunlocking you. I notice I can just go on and on with greatswords and keep attacking.

However, when they block me… I have to say im having a hard time recalling if they actually stop my combo or not. So I assume if they do not, in PvP we do not push them back on a block either? Which is kinda silly then yes.

Meanwhile, in PvE again, when they hit you and you block and push them back, they push you back too, making counter hits harder. Which is even sillier if you ask me. Whereas if attack them, again I’m having a hard time recalling but I dont think I notice their block stop my combo, yet at the same time I’m also not pushing them back. They can at any time just interrupt me at will.

More I think of it the more I realize how many touchups this system needs to work properly. Skeletons for example are still oblivious to actual physics, you cant stun them or knock them back period no matter how much you attack they just go their way doing their sht attacking at will :unamused:

Haha yea that’s why i famed up so many undead for my base defense. Very low damage, but the immunity to stunlock and gas makes them a huge annoyance for raiders.

In PvP, I have never seen a player recoil from attacking a shield with any weapon. In fact, when I told one of my clanmates that shields were supposed to cause attackers to recoil, he was like “wtf really?” because the mechanic never works in PvP. Also keep in mind that all of our old rivals and some of the newer clans use shields in pvp for some reason, so I’ve had a lot of experience fighting them. They never work as intended, and the 2h mace makes shield users in pvp look like thralls on noob river.

Said suggestions can be decent from the gameplay point of view, but most of them are not suited for CE from the technical point of view. Like those parry / block changes relying heavily on FPS and network performance. Anyone playing on a crowded server can still experience rubber banding up to this day.

True, that is why I mentioned a 1 second buffer.
The game really does have some issues with regards to its rubber banding etc. Its a shame. Servers I think are a big reason behind this. I get 40 and 70ms in other games. Steady. And in CE I get 55 like in a blue moon, and 70-90avg almost all the time with the ping playing around all the time. Makes it a little hard to have some of these ideas work, for sure, but I think the only one is the block. The rest will work just fine. Most are just things you notice during the combat, like your stun threshold. Once it exceeds, then you get stunned. That alone will add I think a lot more play-ability to the game. At this point stun locking is silly imo.

edit- i even get 100ping spikes regularly… on servers that I should not be over 60ms ever. Something about their servers or coding really needs to get fixed.