Combat system feedback


#1

Why I cantattack when I blocking with shield Why I cant parry with weapon
Why I cant counter attack New combat system is bad, when I fight in group vs group, when I atack, I move to near to other enemies or just move, I want kick but not move. Room map is bad idea, its break the game hardcore, please make mounts with on mount fight.
Please make different buffs for armor, for light and medium armors, for different armor sets
Sorry for bad english


#2

Well when you attack while holding a block it will attack. Are you asking why can’t one block and attack at the same time? Really?
Please dont make parries like in dark souls so players who know combat animations know exactly when to press a “magic-insta-win” button. That is cheesy AF.

Some of my own feedback:

  1. Rolling.
    After someone commits to an attack the animation for it should finish to at least some degree. Currently we can interupt anything with a roll at almost any moment.
  2. Blocking with a shield.
    Holding a block button should attempt to apply block at next opportunity. At the moment we need to spam the block button after got hit in hope for it to work - and you are getting hit becouse you are just moving your shield up and down and never really block. If you are holding that big piece of protection it should become your primary form of defense. If you think it would make it too powerfull for any reason then maybe nerf rolls a bit for shield holders since it would actually be harder to roll with a giant shield rather than armor.
  3. Weapons.
    I am not including special high tier weapons that other classes dont have - tested with same tier level (no boss and acher weapons)
    From what I think best to worst:
  • spear - it does very good damage and is very easy to use. It is very predictable however and skilled opponents have a decent chance of overcoming it. A good defensive weapon.
  • 1h sword - opposite to spear, damage is a bit low but the moveset is very versatile giving alot of options to response. Easy to learn, hard to master.
  • 2h hammer - very strong weapon relying on timing and positioning. If you like spamming the attack button this is not a weapon for you.
  • daggers - surprisingly good range on light attacks and very powerfull DoT on the heavy. Very fun weapon to use, sometimes enemies decide to run when its already too late :smiley:
  • axes - those need some getting used to but are really fast and effective. Also why are axes the ones with the least armor penetration again?
  • maces - I never got fond of those. Heavy opener will take forever to complete (good luck with that one in pvp) as most of the heavy followups. Light attacks on the other hand have abysmal range, second attack misses due to it way too often.
  • 2h sword - the moveset resembles that of a flail or crude 2h axe really. They look awesome and I was really excited to see my favorite weapon type of all time in CE - got dissapointed here tho. Greatswords were awesome weapons due to versatility, they dont only slash but also stab very well (and were common to use on battlefield as a spearlike weapon). We don’t have any stabs but most importantly no good opener: heavy opener takes too long for what range it offers, light opener… well… is the most ridiculous move of all. Who on earth would do that with a two hander? Black keep boss uses 2h sword as it is supposed to be used, can we have that moveset instead?
  1. Weapon materials.
    Before the introduction of repair kits I would be all hands down for top tier to be so much ahead from the rest. I get that stone weapons are pretty much pitifull - those can be made on the fly and really are just training weapons - no quarrels here. But then come iron to acheronian difference: its way too much! If you get hit in the face with a sword it wouldn’t matter much if its made of dusty bronze or shiny spacecraft metal. If they clashed together it would make a huge difference tho. I would assume this also affects the difference between south and north enemies strength (ok I know I admitt it is now MUCH better (closer to each other) than what it used to be). So what I’m saying is lower the damage difference between them. Notice how people run with acheronian spears that are way more expensive than kingslayer just for those few extra points. Make the difference in durability and armor penetration more than pure damage.

  2. Upgrading weapons.
    All upgrades should be % based instead of hard value. Now every weapon has the best upgrade type to use on it. This kills variety.

  3. Bosses.
    We need one boss weapon in each category! All boss weapons should be the best option - even those from Dregs. Is it possible to make all bosses immune to arrows? Becouse all dungeons need to be hard but doable (like current black keep) with players needing to actually learn to fight them rather than knowing where to stand and shoot. Currently on testlive Dregs bugs out when you approach in melee and just burrows and resurfaces all the time letting you hit him all you want. Black keep boss is a very cool fight but I would remove the barriers on stairs to not let players get him stuck there while hitting him with melee weapons in between his combos.

    Huh… Now evening changed into late night… hope I did not make too many mistakes writing it all.


#3

Really, really.
Unfortunallity I can`t add images or link in my posts.


#4

I am having a wild guess here that you want to post images of warriors doing a swing or a stab while still holding their shield up. Yes, that is the correct way of using a shield in real life combat. It is a protection piece and is not supposed to be showed aside to make an offensive. I absolutely agree with that.
In PvP game world however first thing you want to look at is balance. Shield block is good unless you come up with a counter. Counter needs to be equivalent to advantages a shield provide. Lets have examples from different games:

  • dark souls - hold left trigger to gain 100% physical resistance unless enemy specifically uses a shield break, once he does you are just as screwed as recieving a backstab.
  • conan exiles - you can’t just hold block you have to reapply it, that is super difficult mid fight. Even if you are holding a shield up and facing the enemy alot of moves will ignore the shield and take your block down for the remainder of a combo. Kicking a shield will knock you back and take your block down but will not make you standing there woobling for a second awaiting a knife in your belly.
    Same logic applies to hitting with a shield up. It is either OP or underused. Considering such actions would require separate movesets and mechanics I would prefer time invested in more combo options instead.

#5

Agree 100% with your feedback on the 2h sword. A thrust should be the opener for heavy. I also think it should be able to block melee strikes (not thrusts).


#6

I agree that weapon materials should provide better durability as they improve in tier. Even improving armor penetration makes sense. I believe they are narrowing the damage range and if so this is good. Better damage is an rpg convention that feels out of place. Now that there is the new combat system, there is less of a need for the game to lean on damage stats to differentiate combatants.


#7

You are correct, a harden steel sword is not per definition more dangerous than an iron sword (taken that they are both sharpened and in good condition) but it will probably be sharp longer (have better durability).

And thats what I think higher tiers should be mostly about, better durability. If your an excellent weapon smith and produce fine high quality swords for yourself, you don’t have to risk that they break when your out on a raid/adventure.


#8

All games with weapon melee combat have mistakes.
As sample - flint axe it`s very very sharp and unarmored target will be heavy injured. But if target has armor, flint axe will be broken. Soft iron - if it sharp to a weapon what can heavy ijure a unarmored target, but if target is armored.
Another stats sample what more realistic
FLint axe Damage 10 durability 1
Iron axe Damage 10 durability 5
Steel axe Damage 10 durability 10
But if it all have same shape.
Sorry for bad english.


#9

Was thinking of that, if the final ultimatum on combat is in fact what we’ve seen in the streams (not this friday’s one, but the one before that) it will be very shallow, yet still better than the stiff mess it was before…

best melee combat model out-there’s Mordhau, but no one wants to commit into that level of depth, if that was applied to ANY game that has melee on it, said game would be the best combat-wise under any setting… Be it Skyrim, Conan Exiles, Witcher, take your pick… If all of them used it, I’d be the happiest person on the planet by having the largest plethora of games to chose from (I’d own all of them and play all of them, what I mean by choosing is on a playing time session lol). The only other game aiming high on combat quality is Mount & Blade Bannerlord, which I don’t see being ever released, maybe my grandchildren’s grandchildren will play it’s Early Access hahaha


#10

Crouching in the new combat system does not feel fluid in the current state.

Some things that quickly become apparent is

  • Crouching on ledges with new combat system no longer behaves properly. If you crouch and perform a combat maneuver on a ledge you will fall.

  • Performing combat maneuvers in a crouching stance does not work with new animations. It immediately puts you into the normal combat stance.

Are there any plans to enhance crouching in combat?


#11

I believe the intention is to not fight while crouching. The forced animations in combat are intended to enhance the melee feel of the game and prevent awkward mechanics such as full force strikes while back pedaling, kiting, sprinting past the enemy while striking (jousting), and attack spamming. It also allows for less reliance on tier disparity for equipment.

Out of curiosity, what scenario are you thinking of when you talk about crouching and fighting?


#12

…Rouges do it from behind? :wink:
(Sorry, just couldnt restrain myself… well, didnt want to anyway…)

I am worried about the changes which should come to archery.
It could eighter enhance that playstyle or make some auto aim â– â– â– â–  of it.
Really, really worried here…
I’ve heard things like crossbows being taken away (which wont bother me, could bother other people though) or two light shots being followed by one heavy shot… All of that.
Most of all I hope for the promise of first person being brought back. Aiming makes much more sense to me if done in first person… As I’ve written in one bug report, my aim is off when it comes to hitting small targets/areas (i.e. head of some thrall) at melee range to mid range. Gets rather accurate when shooting far (and down), but I wonder if shooting more far away…


#13

Parry can be an alternative Blocking feature vs lighter weapons. Or, versus heavier weapons at the start of a heavy animation, as, not able to parry the momentum developed mid-heavy-animation with heavy weapon. Were parry limited to a one second window, limited to follow up parries only when following a successful parry… a failed parry leaves defender open to counter.

Combat Mods will show development how it can be done in multi-play. Assuming this aspect of the game is mod-able. Latency is not an issue if done properly.


#14

In the current live build, the over-the-shoulder aimed shot for bows could be a good compromise between first-person and far out third-person shooting.


The most important issue I have is something the OP alluded to, which is being able to fight and not move. Stand your ground, as it were. Pretty much what we have now in terms of fighting. Perhaps we push a certain button to hold position, and then we can swing away without charging forward.


#15

Crouching on a ledge and attacking enemies below would be the main concern. If you perform your attack you will perform an attack animation and fall off a ledge. This removes and existing mechanic in the game where you could crouch and prevent yourself from falling off ledges while attacking.

Simply put the animation is forcing your to move forward and attack with a weapon causing you to lunge off a ledge.


#16

I dont want to install that… AGAIN.
I think I didnt test that - but I really want the aim to be better again, as I experienced the aim being completely off in melee range… I could live with third person, if at least the crosshair was working correctly. :confused:
(almost melee range (~3 foundations) the arrow hits 1 cm left of the crosshair. mid range its slighty off to the left of the centre of crosshair)
I cant take aim like that if I want to get that headshotbonus…


#17

Back with more suggestions:
If making bosses invulnerable to arrows is an issue then give them healing option whenever they are not within distance to trigger an attack. So if it ain’t attacking an health is not max - make them heal themselves to punish boss exploiters.

AI combat.
The thing about fighting AI is that sooner or later you learn how to start a fight with them. This means you always get the first hit and just need to follow up with a combo. Make them have a random attack engage distance. Yes sometimes they will swing too soon and miss, or simply start to attack too late. But every now and then they will swing as a player is about to charge in, other times they will not swing when we kite or roll and do that later which in this case is perfect timing. This is how players fight each other right?


#18

After much more testing done with an axe I would like to change my stand on it.
Moving it to the same category as mace and 2h sword. Light opener is too slow, follow up has terrible range. Heavy attack opener is kind of ok but I would add range to it anyway.
Nobody swings a weapon that close to oneself body. Warriors straighten their arms to leverage more velocity and range into attacks.


#19

The mace (and coincidentally the truncheon) has no more range than a dagger and is much slower. This makes knocking out archer thralls very difficult, due to them pulling out a sword and interrupting you between the first and 2nd strike of a combo. A heavy opener with more range (an action like swinging a baseball bat) would be more in line with how the weapon would actually be used. As Solgam mentions, maces and axes are not swung extremely close to the body and deserve some extra range to their attack (at least more than a dagger).


#20

Yeah dagger has really fast hits at close range - and most of them double hit too. They are a very good weapon for 1v1 encounters. The light openers of daggers have some decent range to them and are pretty fast too.