Comparing armor + weapon values + maths


#1

Before I start I’d like to adress an issue that I noticed on stream this friday. One of the questions regarded to bronzed physique as overpowered when wearing heavy armor. This is untrue. I am going to assume that someone took the numbers and came up with 70ish% reduction from good heavy armor + 20% reduction from bronze physique = 90% reduction. This is wrong. I have tested that and it doesn’t calculate like that. It is 70% reduction and 20% of remaining 30% damage making it a total of 76% reduction. In other words when wearing flawless star metal armor wolf hits you for 15 when on 49 Vitality and for 12 when on 50 vitality. How is that “so overpowered” ? Even Iron hard muscles (30 grit) doesn’t give you flat 6% reduction - it reduces 6% of remaining damage. I really wish people who post that kind of stuff do some testing first.

Now back to topic…
Current armor values:
Light armor - 23 armor - 23% reduction - 77% remaining damage
Medium armor - 48 ar - 39% red - 61% dmg (20.8% better that light)
Heavy armor - 87 ar - 53% red - 47% dmg (23% better than medium)
Hardened steel armor - 127 ar - 62% red - 38% dmg (19.1% better than heavy)
Star metal armor - 141 ar - 65% red - 35% dmg (7.8% better than hardened)

It looks good until one factors in armor type. It was good when it was no difference between them but nowadays there are proper dodge rolls and armor type makes a big difference.

Here is my proposition. To keep it simple im going to refer to iron as T1, steel as T2, hardened as T3 and star metal/boss as T4. T0 being fiber armor that is not really a factor for comparison. The improvement between T1, T2 and T3 is almost exactly 20% (it goes into fractions but its less than 0.5% differences) while T3 and T4 are only 10% (so it’s an improvement but not a definitive “must have” on these hard to acquire items).

Lets start with medium armors:
T1 - 43ar - 36% red - 64% dmg
T2 - 73ar - 49% red - 51% dmg (-20%)
T3 - 108ar - 59% red - 41% dmg (-20%)
T4 - 128ar - 63% red - 37% dmg (-10%)

Light armors. I went for 30% reduction in efficiency which in my opinion is decent for extra iframes on roll (dont know the exact number on those else would evaluate with more accuracy).
T1 - 8ar - 9% red - 91% dmg
T2 - 28ar - 27% red - 73% dmg (-20%)
T3 - 55ar - 42% red - 58% dmg (-20%)
T4 - 67ar - 47% red - 53% dmg (-10%)

Heavy armors. Again went for straight 30% improvement in efficiency over medium armors due to weakened rolls.
T1 - 92ar - 55% red - 45% dmg
T2 - 134ar - 64% red - 35% dmg (-20%)
T3 - 184ar - 71% red - 29% dmg (-20%)
T4 - 214ar - 74% red - 26% dmg (-10%)

Don’t know what armors are being added so went for all options. Total difference in efficiency between T1 and T4 is 42% (+/-0.5%)

Now lets add a weapon on top of that. A 1h sword which I think is most fun to play at the moment (not too many hits to kill someone in pvp and not too few).
Currently it goes like this:
Stone sword (T0) - 14 dmg 13% penetration
Iron sword (T1) - 18 dmg 13% penetration (22.2% increased dmg from previous tier)
Steel sword (T2) - 29dmg 13% penetration (37.9% increase)
Hardened steel (T3) - 44dmg 14% penetration (34.1% increase)
Star metal (T4) - 57dmg 13% penetration (22.8% increase)
Telith’s Lament (TierWTF*) - 70 dmg 22% penetration (18.6% dmg increase 40.9% increase in penetration)

My proposition (some reasoning of which I expressed in another topic):
T0 - 25dmg - 5% pen
T1 - 36dmg - 11% pen (30% increase in dmg)
T2 - 43dmg - 13% pen (15% increase in dmg)
T3 - 50dmg - 15% pen (14% increase in dmg (would be 16% if 42dmg on T2))
T4 - 55dmg - 17% pen (10% increase in dmg)
Also along with tiers the durability should significantly increase.

So total difference in damage between T1 and T4 sword is 34.5%. Along with penetration it goes up to just below 40%. On top of same tier increase in armor mentioned before (42%) total difference is around 98.8% more efficiency. In theory you should have similar chances of victory 1 vs 2 if you are wearing T4 set versus their T1.

What do you guys think?


#2

Well-structured post! I really appreciate the total comparisons you made between T1 and T4. It’s really cool to see the reality of these tiers and how they relate.

I had some trouble understanding the way you calculated the effect of rolls to armor.

The issue they noted on-stream is (I think) related to how Armor and Health are mutually-reinforcing. What they said might not relate to our understanding of the game as TestLive branch players, as they’ve been doing some extensive overhauls to armor internally.
Their armor values might differ a great deal from what we’re seeing, so that might be why they changed that perk. They took Bronzed Physique and moved it into being the Survival 50 perk, and decreased it to being 10% reduction. The new Vitality 50 perk is Gluttonous Gains.

I feel like the biggest balance issue is Vitality directly, rather than Armor, although they both co-relate a huge amount. A high-leveled player can increase their total HP to be 4-7x as much as a player who has just entered the game. Currently we get 12hp per Vitality point — I’d suggest lowering that to about 7hp per point. That would make the exact numbers for Armor less significant.

I agree with your end-goal of making T4 weapons and armors roughly twice as strong as T1 — two Tier-1 players should be able to be equivalent to a single top-tier player. Numbers should always rule, rather than time spent grinding, though armor and weapons should still play a large part, especially when the forces are closely matched.

Thanks for calculating it all out. What sort of other insights did your calculations give you?


#3

The point is that there is no way for me to calculate any variables for efficiency difference between armors without the knowledge of ammount of iframes so I have chosen an arbitrary number of 30% efficiency increase for heavy and 30% efficiency decrase for light. It is more to show the pattern really. So far I don’t see much difference between light and medium rolls and heavy dodges seem very similar to those anyway. But they said on friday stream it has been changed so there is no point trying to figure a proper pattern out of thin air. Once its out for me to test I could establish a much more accurate solution.

My point about bronzed physicue is that it is a separate from armor 20% damage reduction. It is a direct and equivalent counter to 25% damage increase (just in case this doesnt sound mathematically correct to someone somehow: 100 x 1.25 = 125, 125 * 0.8 = 100). Essentially it is 20% increase to your healthpool - it kind of feels like it belongs in Vitality group. Furthermore reducing it to 10% is making it even worse. I wandered alot in good heavy armor with 50 vitality around northern areas - yes you have a larger healthpool, it doesn’t feel as significant of an increase if silent legion skeleton kills you in 2 or 3 combos. You have to take away alot from offensive capabilities to go 50 Vitality. Good offense increases your protection. Damage taken from a dead enemy equals zero. The sooner you take them down the sooner you stop taking damage. 50 Vitality star metal armoured player dies to 3 stabs from kingslayer (this might be the spear issue tho).

I have heard people say high strength is OP - I think so too in the hands of a skilled player. Previous stream mentioned Grit being so. Now people claim it is Vitality. Those dillemas sounds like a healthy balance between those. Encumberance and survival fit the crafter role - I respec into those very often. What really needs looking at is agility. Half falling damage? That one should go out the window. No jumping stamina cost? Who uses jump in stamina extensive situations anyway? Double jump: it sounds fun, it looks fun, it plays fun but is ultimately useless really as 50 stat level perk. My proposition would be change half falling damage into half trap and explosives damage. Change no stamina jump cost into longer roll or additional iframes and move it to 50 switching places with double jump.

It is hard to get insights from ones own calculations. I guess one cool thing I realised was when I was wondering what the % increase between tiers in armors should be and afterwards checking what they currently are and discovering it being almost identical made me feel like im on the right track and maybe the saturday with a calculator, checking and testing was not wasted after all.
If You are asking as to why I made those propositions there are 2 answers:

  • Armor currently is really unbalanced in favor of light/medium, but the main culprit here seem to actually be weapons (around 80ish % penetration on some makes any armor obsolete). Still some medium armors have better reduction than heavy.
  • With top tier equipment you can take waves of 1h iron weapons wielding PvP enemies (not if they bring spears tho - again too much % penetration, you can take 2-3 at once with iron spears but not more normally). This feels unfair. This feels like grind-to-win situation. Grind should give you an edge not a clear victory. I will bring Eve Online as an example here: if say through the fight the random value is around 5-9% (remember that with enough rolls randomness becomes a statistic) and one player has a 10% advantage he will win 100% of the time (there is a reason it is called “spreadsheets in space”). Player skill should always be one of dominating variables for determining the victory.

#4

It seems like there’s always an element of personal experience to what anybody perceives as balance. I feel the developers will continue to ‘balance’ things in line with their personal experiences, and what they imagine peoples’ experiences in the game should be. Some argue for making the tiers more equivalent, and others argue for making more of a progression curve.

Most people I’ve heard from agree with you: Progression plays too much of an importance, and the tiers need to be equalized more.

I’ve been building this Stat Calculator here, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yrXuTvtfi9d_rGcxvbytALnjgFzfUwDfZh777mKxPuw/copy so I’ve been doing a lot of experimentation with attribute points and builds.

Personally I feel like the rank 50 perks should be pretty insanely powerful. If I’m eschewing that many points to get up to 50 in a single attribute, I’m going to be a one-trick pony. If I stat into Vitality and Strength, I’m going to be vulnerable against ranged attacks, and have less stamina. If I go for full Strength and Grit, then I’ll have less health and be more vulnerable.

Reminds me of this art:


#5

I’ve used your calculator before. Great job on that one.
But personally I remove the IF from ranged % since there isnt one for strength equivalent (and inclusion of the perk description makes it unnecessary) and change strength to increase 3% damage per point and accuracy 2% per point as it currently is in the game.


#6

I would make all weapons to have 0 ArP and then have stat which would increase ArP. That way, both armor and health would have their counter and armor/build differences would be noticeable


#7

Low but not gone completely. Some weapon types are made primarily to defeat armor this would kill them basicaly.


#8

If you set ArP for those weapons on low %, that would kill them. I also don’t think that it is wise to have jack of all trades builds. If you separate ArP and damage done, it will stretch your points so you can’t have it all. Idea is to give players choice if they want to be glass canon, tanky or something in between specialized in either destroying light or heavy armor but never both.

As for weapons, I don’t like idea of getting locked to weapon based on its ArP values


#9

When I mean low % I mean “not 80%”.


#10

but in fact such 2 handed hammer would do something like that, ignoring your armor almost totally. It is extremely hard to use it, but when it hits you, it is DONE. Especially if you cant move/dodge so well in heavy armor


#11

Why would medieval knights wore armor at all if such was the case?

Plate armor is not just chunks of metal wore on bare sking. There are layers of cloth and chain to cushion some of the concussion damage. A lot of games and movies makes us believe that plates were just a decorative shiny piece that one can slash thru with ease. In reality that wasn’t the case. Decent full plate armor would cost a highborn a village or two and for good reason. They wern’t indestructible obviously but actual armor penetration was a rare occurence (and usually ended up with the attacker loosing his now stuck weapon). Plates do limit movement to some degree but it is not as much as one might think. Mobility is a major factor in combat hence full plate armour took hundreds of years of perfecting before got popular enough in late medieval period and onwards.

Two handed hammers in CE are really much bigger than the real life historical counterparts. Swinging that would break both your and opponents back in no time. It looks like 10kg+(some even much more). Try taking one of those demolition hammers and do a few combat swings with it - actually don’t as you will hurt yourself! But obviously this is fantasy universe so theres no point picking on it. Yet I have a strong feeling the combat balance should not differ too much from what it was in real life (it needs to steer away a bit else all we should see are full plate 2h sword wielders (arguably)).

Ultimately main point is that weapons that ignore armor make them obsolete becouse you can always have a 2h hammer/spear in your backpack.


#12

Wow what a long post. I like the overall idea.
Nice work with that structure!

I agree for fiber and cloth not to matter.
But are you really saying that t4 light armor should let only 53% through?
I dont like that. People wearing light armor should get almost every dmg point drained from their HP…
I can understand for a tanky guy (wearing heavy) to only get 26% dmg.

Last tiers should rather be like:
light: -25% -> 75% dmg incoming; +10% stamina cost; -5/10% movement speed
medium -50% -> 50% dmg incoming; +25% stamina cost; -10/25% movement speed
heavy -75/90% -> 25/10% dmg incoming; +50% stamina cost*; -15/50% movement speed
*does blocking consume stamina? If yes, that should be lowered. Maybe agility could reduce the tolls on stamina costs and movement speed? (Because I think some of the stats are simply too weak compared to HP or strenght.)
That being said - I dont have any knowledge about current numbers and % values!

Maybe that is too simply->airhead like/stupid of an idea?
My reason is: every choice should be about costs. Very agile people should wear light armor to begin with. Or people who want to stay fighting for longer. Have every strenght come at a cost; have every vulnerability come with a strenght.
Also another question: what are your ideas about when to get which tier?

We got armor penetration - and that 50% perk at accu. Plus 15% penetration from that kit.
A one handed sword would come with 82% penetration, if maxed for that and if the sword wielding guy took 40 points perk in accuracy… (He would loose like 30% dmg, becoming a tank killer instead of some squishy killer. On the other hand people could go all out for 40 accu and rest strenght, being very squishy but would be some kind of berserk/barbarian, tearing everything apart.)
All of this would require lots of reworks on kits and stuff. (Dmg+ gives +3 or 4 dmg, but penetration give 15% on black ice broadsword on live… dmg should be like +15% as well. -> t1: all +5%; t2 +10; t3 +15)
Like those flexibility kits. Let medium armor being treated with those act like light armor, but also loose defense. Or if some plating was used, have them act as heavy armor, while gaining defense.
But this should not lead to some medium armor made more flexible being the same as light armor. Rather something in between. More flexible medium armor being the same as plated light armor.

Double jump would be nice for thieves!
Having a certain stat be less powerful because you dont like it isnt the way to go. @KingOfPredators
That way I would ask for 1% on str and 2% on accu. But no way!
If archery is op, then only due to that penetration perk! 50%… FIFTY! PERCENT!
Also only very skilled people will be able to play archers in pvp. There is lag to count, the players behaviour… and so on. And one hit on an archer means way more that one arrow to the knee… (Sorry, played too much Skyrim…:joy:) Though I didnt test too much on testlive. (Didnt test melee dmg. As for live - melee is way stronger! Just compare it at some dude in new asagarth…)


#13

great post. I would prefer to have weapon slot just as we have armor slots. main hand, off hand + alternative. In game it would look like this:

  1. 2h sword main + alternative 1h mace and shield
  2. Bow + alternative dual dagger
  3. Spear + alternative Bow
  4. etc…

you will pick your favorit weapon/s and played with it. You could ofc change it, but not wearing 5 weapon types like crazy or something…

For heavy armor: i agree as well, ingame penalty should be faster stamina drain for movement and running slower comparing to medium or light


#14

I prefer OP’s numbers for Light armor. But it’s hard to debate armor values, when we know a massive revamp of armor is coming up soon :stuck_out_tongue:

What we do know about the upcoming revamp is that there will be regular and ‘Epic’ armors. The Epic armors are all roughly equivalent to each other, and represent stylistic choices, that also give bonuses to different attributes. For instance, the Darfari armor is an Epic light armor, and gives bonuses to Survival.

There will be less ‘tiering’ of armors, as it is reduced to essentially two tiers: Regular and Epic. You also have flawless, and those different ‘quality’ types from before.

It seems like all Epic Lights will be balanced similarly, all Epic Mediums will be similar, and all Epic Heavies similarly balanced to each other. So it will be less a difference of tier, and more a difference of type.


#15

You get 40% reduction with 50 agility and no armor. It is also supposedly rare/expensive so it needs to be decent.
53% damage coming thru is a bit more than twice of 26% of heavy. So for example you die in 8 hits not 4. That is a huge difference.
25/10% reduction would mean dying in either 10 or 4 hits, even bigger difference.

My entire point is that tier should give an edge instead of a clear advantage. Otherwise there is no economy nor variety choices - after a week everyone uses only the top equipment. I relly like the looks of some lower tier equipment: wooded shield, steel sword, steel armor and iron hammer. Nobody uses them (except during leveling) for how useless they are. Its pretty tiresome for eyes to see everyone in aquilonian/hyborian armor combo wielding acheronian weapons.


#16

On live server (if I remember correctly), in village near mounds, I need 4 arrows to kill an archer (iron–> HSteel arrows, did not used SM arrows) and I need 1 heavy attack and 1 light attack with Acheronian spear with 38 str to do the same thing so I would say that they are pretty much balanced. Keep in mind that you can craft Hyrkanian bow as soon as you capture T2 or T3 carpenter while Acheronian can’t be crafted before 50.

There are 2 ways to rebalance weapons. You can nerf damage or ArP or both and people will start using the next best thing again or you can rebalance weapons and give more flexibility with stats to make more or less all weapons viable.

I think that I understood exactly what OP wanted and I want the same thing. More diversity in gear used because I want to use different gear too. And if I can play with different weapon, that means I will play game more beore I get bored of combat


#17

Since when wont one need the hyrkanian bow feat for crafting the better versions?
Is this new with testlive? (No I havent done too much, only checked out a few things like stats on armor and how cam is for fighting now - I personally dislike that as an archer - as I was and am playing on live…)
If it is like that, I’m happy to hear that! (Also means one would be able to craft melee weapons without having to have learned any feat for those… Though I would only use them in emergencies…)

Also, I needed 3 heavy shots with 40? accuracy, snake arrows and ancient bow.
But 3 heavy hits with some melee weapon without any strenght…
Though just stunning them with powered truncheon worked best on live… 3 hits for I & II -> sleeping in dirt without needing much time for “loading” heavy… and thus taking less damage…


#18

These numbers are from live version (and with 0 accuracy) since bow is terrible to use on test and crafting weapons with thrall without feat are not just a testlive thing.

The only difference between bows and melee is the fact that bow damage (including arrows) is not spread that much


#19

Accuracy is not only for bow, did you read WELL the 4th perk in accuracy? 50% armor penetration to ALL weapons, summing it with a flawless acheronian spear that deals another 64% armor penetration and armor is completely ignored…OP AF pardon my french :smiley:


#20

Except that penetration perk doesn’t work.
There are weapons that can reach 101% armor penetration however.