[Guide] Sustain-tanking for anyone


#103

If a tank is already built with DPS glyphs, the next source of aggro will essentially depend on your Attack Rating, which itself can depend on how much you allocate into it. Even for my Chaos/Hammer sustain tank build, my damage over time can vary from perhaps 3.5k to 6k depending on how much of my HP I convert into Attack Rating, and even though my build uses a hammer to maintain up-time on Pulverise, about 85% or more of my damage consists of Chaos damage and talisman procs. This changes little for a Hammer/Chaos build that forgoes Chaos damage for mitigation or utility. If anything, depending on your gear, the Elite tier of a dungeon, and whether a tank is taking on additional utility, a Hammer/Chaos build should have more room to allocate HP into Attack Rating if the need arises to exceed the damage of a less efficient build, since the requisite base HP to survive is lower.

When aggro ever becomes a problem is not usually in damage over time but in damage dealt in short bursts at the start of an encounter. For this reason, I allocate only as much into HP as I need to survive so that I have greater potential to deal more burst aggro than a DPS can deal in burst damage.


#104

I was fiddling with various tweaks to my hammer-primary build and I think the biggest sources of extra dps were

  1. fast & furious. duh, 9% more hammer damage for 3.5 seconds is good. (unbridled wrath and percussive maintenance are what you’d drop, since they add no dps and minimal defensiveness)
  2. dps basic. deceptively useful - of course it’s twice as much dps as the hate basic, but it also increases pulverize dps. as far as I could tell this is because it triggers f&f more often and crits more. on balance I think you end up with negligibly less aggro and nearly 17% more dps.

#105

Do you have any data points to justify this statement? Otherwise i’d say i didn’t ever experience anything like this, i’m pretty sure i have the same crit chance on average with Ground Pound compared to Smash.


#106

On the comparison parse I did, 35% smash 18% ground pound. I have 27.5% crit chance so 35% seems more right.


#107

Interesting. That would mean AoE abilities have a 50% penalty on crit chance. I wasn’t aware about crit chance penalties outside multihit abilities. Well in the same fashion you also have a paradox gen penalty on AoE abilities, right?


#108

AoE abilities do not have a critical hit chance penalty. From last week’s Elite 10 raids I participated in, I logged 625 Ground Pound hits and 1112 Pulverise hits. Ground Pound crit 260 times (41.6%) and Pulverise crit 451 times (40.56%).


#109

I don’t think it’s a specific crit penalty, just my game parsing badly. Kinda hard to tell though cause testing basics on their own they work fine, it’s just within the build that it does badly.


#110

When healer had BotDK, he / she could make any DPS a tank. There was general discussion about BotDK and Pharaoh for example, but did people complain some groups running without a tank? No. Were there a guide for it? No, bc the talisman was from Eidolon NM raid and not that many people did NM raids. People who did them and had access to those talismans did know what you can do with them. Even before BotDK, you could DPS tank elite NY with 2050 HP. By… What about people who soloed NM dungeons? Were there a guide, nope since it was not needed. BUT having a guide for leechtanking / healtanking was there, why? Bc it was way much more easier to execute compared to something that only minor amount of player base had gear for.

I don’t see the issue when people are complaining of someone running sustain tank. We literally could skip roles back in TSW already so…


#111

yes it is, I do use disortion and rocked pod
rotating them till energy shortage, then I use turmoil to get energy back and start my rotation again.
I do not use Journeyman, I do use both chaos signets for basic and power

I am not sure if double barrel shotgun procs for additional aggro but I toss extra dmg into the target with it and can reload more often to get the ammo I need


#112

I 100% agree with what you said and I know my observations were pure anecdotal. I stated it was only my impression.
I only wanted to highlight that the arguments about tanky tanks not holding aggro may not be the most important and that in fact they may not have that much problems in holding aggro. I ofc give that they only or mostly use x10 aggro abilities, it would be silly to do the opposite as a tank.

On the other side the most important argument in favour of sustain tanking is IMO the fact that at higher tiers healing even the best of the tanky tanks is very hard, up to almost impossible in E10 and totally impossible on some E10 bosses. And I say this from direct experience as sometimes when I heal in cabal runs we have a very good tanky tank who also sustains, so most of time for me is only dps with some cleanses duty and some group top ups, but when she asks me to go full heals I know I will have a hard job for sure.


#113

It is a standard for sustain tanking though? There’s variations included and a limited number of abilities available in game so yes, there will be ‘standards’ for the most part in ANY spec because you have a certain number of slots and a certain number of abilities to put in them from 2 weapons. Nobody is forcing anyone to play this way, but for the people who wish to learn to do something challenging and pushing end game content this is a good way to do that. It sounds like you’d have a problem with ANY guide then? Because it’s making things seem ‘standard’? Are you serious? If new players can’t understand that guides are for people interested in doing things advised from someone that tested them instead of being a ‘rule’ then maybe they aren’t mature enough to play an M title. Nobody is forcing anyone, new or otherwise to follow guides. Instead of turning a helpful guide into a pile of vitriol why not write some guides of your own if you take issue with this one?


#114

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#115

:smiley: I think this pretty much just kind of validated what I said. Good luck out there though :-D.


#116

Sustain Tanks are superior.
Yes in many cases. Especially in almost all dps-check boss fights. For example, e10 HR 6. There is currently no record that a group without sustain tank can clear it so far.

Regarding to natural.
If most people accept this willingly, then it is natural.
Just as people no longer thinks slavery is part of life like Greek people thought thousands years ago.
Just as people accepted to use machines and robots to replace craftman and workers in workshop and factory during last hundred years.
If one day, all human no longer gets ill thanks to science development, will you complain that you no longer need to see doctors, take medicines, get cut open on surgery table?

Regarding to extinction of heals
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I heal dungeons/raid whenever need, wynn is a healer, Molov also heals NYR e10 sometimes. :stuck_out_tongue:
The people you are arguing against all have an e10 level heal gear. That’s the very proof that heals are not extincted because we also play sustain tanks.
I personally have spent more than 4000 hours in this game(including 1900+ hours in TSW) . Unless some real terrible things happen in real life, I can hardly get into “extinction”. (By real terrible things, I mean…I even got my heart beat stopped for a few second during a surgery a month ago, I still come back here after a few days of recovery)


#117

This reminds me about fist healers going “extinct” due to leech healers … then HealTanks… then LeechTanks in TSW.

The fact is, if a team compo is making a boss going down faster, people will push this compo.


#118

I promised to not post any off topic stuff here anymore, but I am sure this will be excused

Glad you made it

I will not comment on other stuff you wrote here, please understand^^


#119

Can you share that specific build?


#120

Hi everyone!

Dropping some quick notes here. I’ve updated the guide and removed the references to the Enigmatic Apparatus here. After testing it enough, with maxed Ascendant + Efficiency mk3, alongside Incongruity and Resonance Cascade, the setup is just not reliable at all for Potency Enigma fishing, because too many factors contribute to making it bad.

  • Incongruity only procs after Immutable ends, resulting in the eventual Enigma procing after usual burst windows.
  • A certain amount of damage has to be taken to proc Incongruity reliably (even with Resonance Cascade, this alone cannot put you on 7 paradoxes between 2 Immutable usages), so any wrong timing with Immutable usage can simply not proc any Controlled Chaos effect because of the lack of paradoxes.
  • Because of the previous point, Immutable is in practice delayed to make sure enough damage is taken during its effect, so Immutable’s effective cooldown actually increases.
  • Potency Enigma is still quite rare (12.5% chance to proc the Potency Enigma on each Controlled Chaos effect under the Enigmatic Apparatus), so very unreliable (for reference, in one of my tests with this setup, i only managed to proc 1 Potency in a total of 3 full dungeon runs…).
  • Any downtime or boss becoming invulnerable or untargetable will be a waste of the Potency Enigma proc if Immutable ends at that time, more or less.
  • This setup costs 2 passive slots and 880 protection out of Sanity’s Aphelion, which creates an opportunity shift somewhere else to make up for the loss of survivability or of damage/aggro, especially for less than 4 CD setups.

On the positive side, the gameplay is kind of fun since i used to do suicide runs in ground AoEs and such under Immutable just to ensure to break the damage threshold and proc a Controlled Chaos effect reliably. :smiley:

Next, i’m planning to update the guide with the advised mods to use (EffectsUi setup, BooBuilds quickbuilds, etc…), and eventually release a video about BooBuilds Quickbuild setups and revisit some encounter tactics (of which i’ve notably updated the HE2 strat which is now a 100% reliable strat with the use of provoke abilities).

Finally, i’d also end up creating probably a full section about alternative utility tanking setups such as cleansetanking and bufftanking as discussed earlier, since these setups now became somewhat meta (in our group that is, at least).

Cheers !