All right, so. I’m having a bit of an argument with my guild on our private server and I need another perspective on the matter.
So, we’ve got about a dozen people playing and most are in a single, large guild spread all over the map. Myself and one other went into our own guild to facilitate the PVP element; on the weekends raid time goes up and we cause trouble.
Now, the one official rule is: “Don’t be a douche.”
So, our first idea was to block off the Volcano portal stone, as this gives quick access to powerful thralls we’d have to deal with and we wanted to limit access (all traditional ingress would remain untouched). We were immediately told this was douchey and the structure was disassembled by admins and virtually no resources returned.
Next, there is complaint about attacking bases of those who are not online, building vaults outside of bases we’re assaulting, swimming away from attackers in order to escape, general complaints about having things taken and me personally avoiding actual combat with other players, and a rule against putting vaults underwater at all.
My contention is both that the ‘don’t be a douche’ is far too nebulous and it sounds more like the rule is ‘don’t do anything that annoys us too much’ - and that no 3rd party would put up with this. Their argument is that SOME douchery is acceptable but that I am pushing things too far.
Respectful PvP is like roughing up a younger brother, without wounding him.
It’s like a fist fight, but with boxing gloves.
It is war with mutual respect. Sportsmanship if you will.
Being a douche is gaining an advantage at the cost of others.
There are many ways of gaining an advantage, without being a douche. An example would be building public map rooms, so you effectively control all the Obilisks, without being a douche. If someone attacks your map room, you can screw them right back, no bars held.
A lot of pvp players that claim to be good are absolutely dismal at thinking out of the box. Along comes someone with originality, and bamm, you get labelled for being too difficult, you use the system as it is designed (ie, not cheating) or simply use your brains. You can’t be blamed for using the game the way it is designed.
Now blocking an easy route isn’t douchy as long as the alternate isn’t through a dungeon. I’d call that out of line by a lot.
Offline raiding is simply poor form, in fact it doesn’t even qualify as PvP under the strict definition of the term - you are engaged in PvE vs the game. The fact the structure belongs to a player isn’t even relevant. If there is no challenge, why even bother? Are you afraid? Conan would laugh at you. Players not logging in during PvP times to avoid PvP is also bad form. You can’t avoid the game and be called playing it.
Swimming away or aggressive retreat has been a valid form of war forever, players that can’t accept that should tell their mommies, because I don’t care, and no one that considers themselves a PvP player should be complaining - clearly you don’t know how to plan a battle well if you can’t control the result - read Sun Tzu’s Art of War for some tips.
I feel I should clarify the ‘attacking those who are not online’ is a bit misleading. Currently our raid hours are set up on prime time, weekends only. At that time, at least 6 players in the biggest in-game clan are online, BUT each member built an individual base. So when I say attacking when not online, there ARE people of that guild online - just not always the specific owner of the base in question.
Had a long reply, realized it got a bit soap boxy.
Short story, if you want to call it pvp it has to actually be pvp. Anything else is pve. Even if the location is part of a larger guild, if that location has no guildies present and the game isn’t giving them realtime updates about what is happening where, then you are sidestepping the whole point of pvp.
I thought player vs player was developed because players thought fighting pc mobs was too predictable and easy and wanted a more challenging experience. So game developers agreed and created the pvp experience. And then we find that some players (I believe it’s actually a lot of them judging from forum posts about how this game should be developed - along the lines of Dark Souls ffs?!) don’t really want a challenge, they want a way to piss each other off. Like monkees in the zoo flinging crap at each other.
Sure, you can block off the obelisks to prevent thrall capture … but that is 100% a jerk move. And offline raiding is just glorified PvE. You’re not even PvPing anyone at that point.
The point of unofficial servers like this to promote PvP. As in, fighting each other… to have fun, I assume. You can do all of the above to gain an advantage over them, but you’ve definitely veered well into douche territory and IMO suck the fun out of the game.
Definitions of Deuchery are purely based on opinions. What I may think is a poor move others may s+ay is fine. Sounds like your views and the admins differ greatly. The admin is the only one worth talking to about this matter as they are the one you have to worry about.
@Probitas: can you give me the rundown on Dark Souls? I’ve never had any interest in it at all, can’t even watch YT vids of it, and don’t understand the comparison, or warnings about “let’s not go there, Conan.”
PVP began earlier for me, but I won’t date myself before DOOM 2. When we (as network enginerds at the time) worked out such standards as TCP/IP and IPX, and fought over NETBEUI and other things, we also gained the ability to play against each other. So when we got done collaborating, we could hit each other with the BFG. Or teleport through some poor sap who didn’t move from the spawn point.
It was visceral, and it was simple. The closest we come these days is GTA V, to the visceral, ephemeral, anonymous feeling of blasting somebody. Of course GTA is hilarious because it’s a parody of our daily lives: new players say “how do I turn off my map marker so players can’t see me?” and we laugh because Rockstar is mocking our own personal tracking devices. So even our visceral thrills are too real.
Conan Exiles strips it off and lets you just be you. And as in DOOM playstyles, and like in all things, water finds its own level. And douches are filled with water.
I can agree you were a douche but again it can be explained, right? You and your mate are in a smaller number and such moves are needed. Well the issue is that the rules are not clear and is up to the opinion of those who enforces it. You can gather our opinions but what really matters is the admins opinion in the end. You need to talk to him ask for clarifications or move on.
Probably they left rules vague as that to let moderation to work freely as they fit and detailing may never come . =)
The “don’t be a douche” standard is certainly a rather nebulous and subjective standard. What is douchery for one, may just be innocuous shenanigans to another.
However, I will say that blocking off an obelisk is likely universally accepted as douchery, particularly on a server that is soft on the actual pvp part.
running/swimming away to avoid combat in pvp is, IMO, just survival. Harrying the enemy, and avoiding loss/damage/defeat, is an integral part of pvp – which is not douchery.
The vault thing…??? IMO, building a vault underwater is just smart, as it makes your valuables harder to get – which is the point of a vault. However, it appears they made a hard rule in relation to the vaults, so you should respect it if you want to play on that server.
Not attacking offline players. Makes sense on a server soft on pvp. Fun for you to run in and destroy a base unimpeded, but not so fun for the guy whose base was destroyed with no chance to defend it. IMO, this is douchery on a server that is not hardcore 24/7 pvp. It also appears they made this a hard rule, so you should respect it if you want to play on that server.
TL:DR – the basic “no douchery” rule is definitely nebulous and subjective. However, it appears hard and fast rules are developing from it. If you keep pushing the boundaries, you will see more hard and fast rules, or you will get booted from the server. Proceed with caution.
This component is a bit trickier, as the game only identifies bases at the clan level. If your in a clan, the building shows as clan property not the individual player. So unless you know which player built which base, the rule about not attacking bases for offline players (when each clan member has a separate base from the main clan building area) is fairly difficult to enforce. Clan members should work together to defend each others bases.
Seek clarification from admin, and push for a standard allowing you to attack any clan base as long as 2-3 clan members are online. Perhaps a “declaration of war” 10-15 min prior to attack is needed on your server??
At the end of the day, the server admins make the rules and if you don’t like them, you have limited options - find another server with a rule set you can live with or rent your own server and try to attract some people to it who feel the way you do.
Complaining to them about the ‘unfair’ rules isn’t likely to get you too far. You could try talking to them about the rules and see if you come to some sort of understanding about the direction they’re trying to take their server, but it’s their server and their rules. If they don’t want to change them, they won’t.
You can be blamed for using the system as it is designed if you are on a private server where people are specifically trying to avoid that because the games design is an anti fun PoS if we are being honest.
Very good discussion by all and lots of great views and Opnions. As usual you are responding to a very one sided account of the situation, but that is MadMage in a nutshell. It has been an entertaining read by most in the guild and pretty predictable post to be honest.
He has only been asked to follow 2 rules, One of which is enforced on most servers and most agree that blocking the Ob is not a good plan. The other is don’t build vaults underwater. Everything else he has been able to do however it dosen’t stop a lot of the members from calling him a douche for doing it.
Quite a few of us have been playing together 20+ years (yes we are old) and most of the time there is a lot of respect amoung guild members. Madmage had done a lot to errode his standing, at least in my eyes, with his actions.
In the grand scheme of things, everyone has to play together on the server. I would say blocking an obelisk, whilst a tactical move, it serves little purpose other than to annoying everyone else. Your not stopping people from accessing areas, so its not very tactical, your just remove a convenience. Hence most people will frown on this. Now if you were wanted to completely block off an area, this would be more tactical as you are clearly gaining an upper hand. But again that will annoy and invite trouble. At the end of the day its more about building your base and defending it. Most people join private servers in order to have some decorum and honour amongst thieves.
As for putting your vault under water…good move as it helps to protect it more. It can still be destroyed but will take more effort to do so. I see nothing wrong there.
Now the matter of off-line raiding. This is often controversial because to lose all your stuff without having some chance to defend will always upset you. But in most cases the servers will have dedicated times when raids can take place. Everyone should know these times and be prepared for it. If I want to raid someone, I am not going to wait until they are online specifically. I will go when I am ready whether they are online or not. Arguably, off-line raiding is tactical as well especially on massive bases which are going to take time to even crack them open a little. Why would you make it that much harder for yourselves.
Early on off-line raiding is a bit crap as you might not have finished all your defences etc which leaves you a bit more open. In which case, just be online until your happy that your base is safer or will last long enough so if you late coming online you can still fight the raiders off.
The other people go on about is being out numbered say 1v4. True your going to have a hard time if out numbered but that’s the harsh nature of the game. Try and make it on your own or make a clan and help each other out. If solo, then offline raiding is going to be your advantage when taking on bigger clans etc.
When raiding there is no right or wrong way, just whatever works for you best for your situation.
-Raid hours are set on weekends for a window of time.
-They seal up the entire Obelisk (started to do another one) so anyone who ports in is trapped. Basically if you port in outside or close to the end of raid hours you a trapped in the corruption of the Obelisks. All the need to do is to wait for you to die and free loot for an entire week until raid hours resume. They conducted their attacks on our volcano base at the end of the last hour of raid time. So when we ported in…we had very limited time to blow a hole and get us out…
-They were return with their resources…personally I was for nothing to be given.
-The decay rate is not working right and also raid hours prevent us from blowing up the vaults when found.
-Swimming is a god mode, once your in the water safe (unless you can be caught and pickaxe or skinned…good luck on that)…however he fails to mention that he was changing his stats on the fly using the lotus potions. Climbing built, then a fighting build, healing build and then a carrying build. And of course log out if all else fails. Thanks funcom for fixing the lotus potions!
-back on vaults…he then brings up, well we should limit 3 per guild…admitting that is 10 hidden around the world might be excessive.
-Attacking player offline…he fail to mention that the player was in Alaska for a week on a business trip.
-Entering base because of the ceiling glitch (when the ceiling tile disappears) during both off hours and raid to raid a base. More so during off hours were the npc’s do not react.
-Last patch, took advantage of the NPC glitch by raiding only the workbenches and chest by walking around the bugged NPC guards.
Mad,
Those action destroy a server attractiveness to new and old players. IT kills game play because your taking advantage of raid hours to protect a structure that can’t be destroy for another week. You are fighting a gorilla warfare, but it isn’t against us, it’s against the server and game play in general. The tactic you are employing are destructive to the server in general.
Just because the game allows it doesn’t mean it is right. Plus the game is still very much new and there are a lot of holes that still need to be plugged. Stop finding all the holes!
We do have both admins and admin/DM online which are PM-able it not. If you asked them to be discrete with a question they will, it’s ran by adults who are committed to the success of the server. We hold DM events as well.
The blocked Obelisk was dealt with immediately and resolved by a member of his team… then later with help with the admins online.
