Impossible to execute combo on camp thralls due to Stagger update 2.5

It’s no longer possible to execute full combo with any weapon on thralls in camps, this is just riddiculous as it didn’t pumped difficulty, it just make game of mashing button.
In a nutshell you are forced to take hit if you want to do full combo, or do roll and waste stamina which will prelong fight for very long - this is chore instead of fun. Don’t even get me started on when you fight more than 1 opponent, it’s impossible to not get hit unless you roll all the time. Hunting god tokens by killing thralls now olny makes sense with fighter thrall that will kill everything but that’s just not fun.

Another problem comes to healing, there’s almost no way to heal in combat… Food does not heal in combat, wraps are out of combat healing but POTIONS from last update dont heal when taking damage even after animation is over, which becomes heal OUT OF COMBAT like wraps. What heals we have now in combat? Please revert that change…

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I’ve always thought healing in combat is non-sense and should never have been possible. Even if I must admit it is very useful. Playing on XBox (and PS4 when it’ll be updated) I haven’t any opinion on the changes, yet. But from what you wrote I’ll find them interesting. We’ll need to change our way to fight, using full combo only against a single adversary and be a lot more careful when there’s many.

On PvE: Combine that with almost no stagger on camp thralls and have fun.

On PvP: Maybe that would make sense if we were not so fragile… 2-3 shot by rider on horse for example, where’s fun in that?

100% agree, a tier 1 craftsman thrall can only be staggered with your first hit. If it was a fighter thrall? I’d understand that, but literally every thrall can retalliate after your first hit connects. The irony is that they can still stunlock you (unless you roll out, assuming you have the stamina for it).

I’ve been debating on whether or not this should be reported as a bug, because I can’t imagine balance like this being intentional.

Because now you’re guaranteed to take hits from camp NPCs unless you’re poking them once and dodging away, in-combat healing has become more important… Unfortunately, the combat system isn’t designed so we can just back away from an opponent to heal up. This should be obvious, but the thing is we go like 75% slower if we back up or strafe. We have to turn our back to the enemy to build enough distance to safely drink a potion, and while our back is turned and we can’t see what they’re doing, there’s a chance they’ll suddenly lunge in from behind and interrupt the now interruptable heal.

I bought this game literally 7 days ago, I found the PvE combat was very well balanced and fun with three notable exceptions:

1 - Dual daggers were clearly overpowered due to their bleed effect. Literally every beginner’s guide on Youtube for the game recommended this, arguing that daggers in general were “overpowered”, so yeah it wasn’t just me thinking this.
2 - Some of the weapon types just plain sucked. For example, the pikes (two-handed spears). The 2.5 update pretty much fixed every problem I found with all the weapons, though.
3 - Katanas are a special mention, most of the weapons were bad (as mentioned in #2) but katanas were truly trash when I tried them after buying the game. Thank god they got overhauled.

So less than a week after I bought the game, update 2.5 addressed the only 3 issues I had with the PvE combat. Unfortunately it also implemented 3 brand new issues for me to list!

1 - Can’t stagger camp NPCs beyond the first hit. As stated above, it’s impossible to execute an attack combo on NPCs without being attacked in retalliation. This has changed the player-vs-NPC combat entirely from the way it was before, which I liked. Now it really sucks, in fact I’d say the combat now sucks as much as katanas did before update 2.5
2 - Potions are almost impossible to use in combat now. Again, the main problem is that the combat system isn’t really made for us to be able to disengage from fights. If this is truly intentional then I’d just suggest going all the way and nyxing bandages entirely, so our healing is just out-of-combat potions. I’d be for not having to carry around two out-of-combat heals on me.
3 - Katana bleed is kind of moot now. This is the smallest issue I felt worth mentioning, it’s ironically this list’s counterpart to point #1 in the list above (since I thought the OP daggers was a minor issue in the previous version). The bleed comes from the 4th attack in the katana’s combo and making it through to the 4th hit against any enemy that can survive more than 8 katana attacks, is very tough. You have 8 seconds to reliably pull that attack off to keep your bleed up now, it isn’t long enough. Your next attack combo needs to be started immediately, and if it’s interrupted then there’s no hope of maintaining your bleed stacks. It seems to me like the 8-second bleed nerf was made without notifying the people working on the katana changes, and they had no idea their awesome new overhaul was going to be gimped right out the gate.

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That’s perfectly sums it up. It have to be fixed, not it’s forcing us to use followers and stay back which is boring and prolonges everything.

At this point just they need to just rename the game.
Conan afk exiles sounds fitting.
Now you can’t even fight basic human npcs without relaying on thralls.
Thanks funcom.
Just point a thrall at camp. Find the highest rock in the area and tab out to watch YouTube or something else.

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As I said, I literally bought the game a week ago. I loved the PvE combat when I bought it, but only a few days later the combat has been turned trash.

I’m pretty into solo PvE (largely so I can have fun with the weapons the game has) but in 2.5 right now even geared up at level 53 it’s still a struggle to fight a small NPC camp near noob river, and going north towards the mountains? It’s like every NPC is a little boss fight.

In the previous version of the game, during my 2nd day of playing (on normal difficulty) I fought my way through the main Dafari camp trying to figure out what the heck the place was and if there was anything worth killing all those NPCs for. I tried doing the same in 2.5 and had to turn back at the front door, pretty much.

The only reason the combat has become so awful after the 2.5 update is this line in the changelog:
“Humanoid NPCs (including thralls) will now gain temporary immunity to weapon hit stagger effects after being affected by them for an extended period of time.”

Again, a part of me is sure this has to be a bug, unless someone considers a single attack to be “an extended period of time”. The thing is, I cannot fathom how such a bug would get past any form of QA so I feel like I have to assume this was intentional.

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Regarding the issue with backing out of fight.
Try to turn on controller style movement in your settings. It’s somewhere in gameplay tab but I’m not sure.
It will give you more control and better movement overall.

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well i don’t want to imagine what it is now to do a t4 surge on siptah where you have group of 6+ t5 figthers that go on you. or when you have a ppurge of cimmerian berseker on conan with ten of them on you.

I think the original intent (well i hope) was to make thralls of players harder to kill. i mean thralls are the only defense of a base when offline raid, and they have been nerfed to death in previous update. stagging effect was allowing to kill them so easily. so i would say they should may be keep stagger update but for thrall owned by a player only, not for npc in the wild.

EDIT ; welll just tested to farm some zeal in a npc camp and i had no problem, stagger effects was working enough long to allow me to kill group of them easily, but was low level npc, will do further test to see

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Probably just poor execution of the code. As you pointed out, there is NO extended period, they go anti-stagger immediately. I noticed this when I was testing out the new attacks with the whirlwind blades.
The only thing that saved me from getting stagger beaten to death was MY thrall, who just kept swinging his greatsword.
I did notice that he WAS staggering them still so Funcom needs to revert this change until they can figure out whatever it was they really wanted to happen.
Have fun with those purges, and New Azgoroth. . .lol

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Just go to some camp like Black Galleon and try to fight them without thrall, even one by one, it’s almost impossible to do combo, they always hit you back even if you do heavy hammer combo.

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well I tried new asgard, lol, yes there is a problem

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I think I’ve figured it out. You can only stagger humanoid enemies that are in an idle animation of some kind. This means standing idle or combat idle.

Any other animation including attack animations or the stagger animation itself cannot be interrupted with a stagger. This means you can only stagger enemies through a combo for very slow hitting weapons right now, I’ve had a little success with a legendary sledgehammer I got out of the giant croc chest near the noob river, but it isn’t reliable.

At this point I’m certain it’s a bug, the new stagger code seems to be failing if the enemy is in an animation of some kind. It also seems to prevent knockdown attacks from one-handed swords and sledgehammers (and whatever else does knockdown attacks) from working.

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That is because you cannot finish any combo if you are fighting more than one NPC at a time. Their stagger interrupts the combo and stops the knockdown/knockback.

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I completely agree with your original post Mefistos, and have thought this myself for a while now actually.

Agree. It doesnt actually increase challenge in a strategic sense, but rather as you said, it just forces us to button mash and take on unavoidable hits. This in turn leads to more healing resource burn and untimately…more grind.

Enemies hit us straight through our own blows unphased, but interrupt our own more easily than an ad break interupts a television anchor. Large groups of enemies stunlock us to death.

Exactly. I sensed doom in this decision when I saw it in the Patch Notes. Like you said, how are we supposed to heal during combat now? This is going to make it absurdly easy for groups of enemies to cancel our heals. If you have 3-4 archers all firing at you at once, what are the odds of all 4 of them missing, when we are stuck in a slow walk drinking animation!? Buckleys. Add some fighters into that equation and its a recipe for death.

With nothing else to draw enemy aggro, this change is going to seriously hurt Singleplayers and Online Solo players, and push us back closer towards thrall dependency, and that is not something I want to see make a return.

I wholeheartedly agree with and support Mefistos call. Please revert this change.

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I personally like the heal system, I enjoy the added pressure of having to stick it out and fight to the last breath or try to find a chance to heal

But I really don’t like what I’ve heard about the stagger in 2.5, I’m assuming it’s a bug, because it certainly doesn’t seem to match the description

The change to potions doesn’t fit with the game’s combat, in my opinion. The devs are also shooting themselves in the foot with the change, too (more on that below)

FromSoftware (the makers of the Souls franchise) gradually developed the healing for their games, as they made their games. CE potions work pretty much like an Estus Flask now, but Dark Souls games have slower paced combat than CE, so the Estus Flask style heal doesn’t fit in a faster paced game. This is why FromSoftware made Bloodborne’s healing much faster than in their previous games because they wanted Bloodborne’s combat to be much faster than their previous games, and that quick heal would be much more fitting for CE than the current state of potions (the reasoning explained below)

FromSoftware also constantly aims to make their healing systems forgiving, in interviews their developers have specifically stated that by doing so they have more leeway for greater challenges in their games. This is why their harder games always have better heal items than their easier games, going so far as to allow the player to resurrect their character on the spot for practically free.

CE’s devs are shooting themselves in the foot by making it harder to heal in combat because already challenging fights become painful instead. Future content has less room for challenges to be implemented too.

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I think I just have different preferences here than you do. One of the first mods I went after in Skyrim was about adding animations to potions, making them heal over time too. I also stopped food from healing.

I don’t have issues with the healing system, I don’t find the fights to be too hard, and can get away long enough to pop a potion and be ready to immediately defend. I respect that every one has different preferences for difficulty.

I just enjoy the added tension and immersion I get out of it

Stunlocking is complained about by many players on this forums and in the game.
Nothing changed :confused: topics about this issue die out and doesn’t get the awareness in needs.

The combat should be changed conform the new stamina, heal and animation cancelling changes.

Well how the potion heals now is the same as it was back then in 2018, 2019 and 2020 before Siptah EA launch. You take damage, you lose your heal buff. The only difference is that we have an animation prior healing now.