POLL => Should the Modes be Balanced Seperately?

[Croms_Faithful]

@CodeMage

It’s not just the stats. More importantly, it’s not just the weapons and armor. Look at @Croms_Faithful’s list

Although I do not believe this is malicious at all, you have now taken my list and are using it for your own political expediency. And trying to use it to invaludate @krix_ost argument at that. The whole purpose of the list was to illustrate reasons as to why we should have seperate balancing! The reason of course is due to the innate differences in balancing needs, player goals and playstyles of the modes. PvP needs* nerfs, and PvE and Singleplayer is sick of them impacting on our own fun.

@CodeMage

It doesn’t automatically follow that this would balance the game.

You have now skewed far from the original ‘proposal’. The thread asked for some additional Sliders and Settings. It doesnt matter if we cant solve every last problem, or balance every-single-last-item individually. We would (hypothetically speaking) take what we can get, and what may be within the realms of attainability. I can already think of several sliers and settings which if added could go a long way to solving at least some of these. For example:

-Thrall to Player damage → would mean PvP no longer gets one shotted, PvE doesnt see their thalls nerfed
-Passive health regenerattion → 1.0 to 10.0. PvP continue to have it as is (or lower), PvE gets a semblance of their old, sorely missed rates back
-Maproom functionality → on/off. PvP gets to play without them, we can continue playing with them.
-Hardcore mode → a new difficulty setting. For people like me who like being brutalised by the game, and PvPers who complsin they kill things too fast because they uses metas on PvE npcs.

*Disclaimer: no sliders and settings wont solve every single last problem, but they would help immensely in many of them.

@krix_ost

Cheers Mate! or maybe you know this one? Cheers Big Ears!..Same Goes Big Nose!

PS- right back at you krix_ost! You even saved me quoting the reply line. Well said.

[CodeMage]

@Croms_Faithful

Although I do not believe this is malicious at all, you have now taken my list and are using it for your own political expediency. And trying to use it to invaludate @krix_ost argument at that. The whole purpose of the list was to illustrate reasons as to why we should have seperate balancing!

Let’s pump the brakes here a bit. First, let me clarify that this is nothing personal against you or @krix_ost. If I criticize your ideas or his, it’s not a personal attack.

Yes, I’m using the list you posted as an argument against what @krix_ost is saying. I might be wrong about what he’s trying to say, but from what I’ve seen so far, his claim seems to be that having separate balance between PVE and PVP is not only feasible, but easy, because you just have to swap out an equivalent of one Excel spreadsheet.

My counter-argument is that it’s way more than one Excel spreadsheet, as can be seen from the breadth of topics covered by, among others, the list you posted, regardless of your intentions when you posted it.

@Croms_Faithful

You have now skewed far from the original ‘proposal’. The thread asked for some additional Sliders and Settings . It doesnt matter if we cant solve every last problem, or balance every-single-last-item individually. We would (hypothetically speaking) take what we can get, and what may be within the realms of attainability.

Right, and I’ve already given my opinion on that in an earlier reply. This is not about that, this is about a much more specific argument by @krix_ost. Look at what he said and compare it to what you say here:

@Croms_Faithful

-Thrall to Player damage → would mean PvP no longer gets one shotted, PvE doesnt see their thalls nerfed
-Passive health regenerattion → 1.0 to 10.0. PvP continue to have it as is (or lower), PvE gets a semblance of their old, sorely missed rates back
-Maproom functionality → on/off. PvP gets to play without them, we can continue playing with them.
-Hardcore mode → a new difficulty setting. For people like me who like being brutalised by the game, and PvPers who complsin they kill things too fast because they uses metas on PvE npcs.

The approach he proposed and the approach you outlined here are light years from each other. Yours involves less than a handful of new sliders and toggles and perhaps a new flavor of servers with a different set of values for those settings.

His approach involves a fully customizable data table for weapons and armor. Let’s put aside, for one moment, whether it’s really realistic to expect the players to come up with a proposal for those or to expect Funcom to accept that. This isn’t a stagnant game, frozen in time. This game keeps changing over time, so this wouldn’t be a final iteration. Think about the amount of work involved the next time Funcom wanted to tweak the balance.

Even if we pretend that this could happen, what was it for, again? You said it yourself:

@Croms_Faithful

PvP needs* nerfs, and PvE and Singleplayer is sick of them impacting on our own fun.

Let’s pretend that we all came up with a data table and that Funcom patched it in and they’re willing to work on maintaining it. What do you think will happen on PVE side when they decide that the best way to solve some problem in the future is to nerf the drop percentage of an item? Or a spawn chance of a T4? Or mess with resource nodes? Or the effect of a potion or warpaint or whatever? What do you think will happen when they decide to nerf another perk? Hell, take the 5th encumbrance perk for example, which a lot of PVP-ers have clamored against and which I have defended rabidly.

When it comes to solving the problem of “PVE is sick of PVP nerfs”, I’m firmly convinced that neither your nor his solution would work. But at least yours is feasible to implement.

[krix_ost]

Actually some good civil discussion. Thank You.

@Croms_Faithful having another before bed. Cheers!

@CodeMage

I’m pretty sure he gets it, but you guys keep talking past each other.

Not by this post (below). Does not apply since 10000 or 1 million opinions is irrelevant.

• DPS is based upon Animation Speed…correct.
• The Hit Box is a Collision Object that is attached to a Mesh. The Mesh has a Bone/Socket that follows the hand or root (depends upon the hit box type).
  I think a lot of animations may be 1.6 seconds? They changed a lot with the new Dodge and Combat stuff so someone has to dig into the DevKit and see the combat animations for length to generate a proper DPS. Or time it accurately in a play test.

@WhatMightHaveBeen

How many testers verified the numbers are normalized?
And hit box, attack animations change the DPS. Again, intrigued by the idea of what you state. But a few tests vs 10000 people playing is a big difference.

This counter-argument (below) needs more homework with ItemTable.csv (and MonsterStatTable.csv after testing)

@CodeMage

My counter-argument is that it’s way more than one Excel spreadsheet, as can be seen from the breadth of topics covered by, among others, the list you posted, regardless of your intentions when you posted it.

No it is not way more than 1 spreadsheet. All items that have stats are in that one spreadsheet. Once you folks decide How Many Hits is Deemed Reasonable then Funcom will have to modify MonsterStatTable.csv and some of their hidden Under the Hood connections we don’t have access to. ItemTable.csv is where this All starts first before anything else can happen.

If you folks don’t believe that then you have not done the homework necessary for a balance discussion. Simple as that. Your current discussion (or argument) is based upon Feeling of How you are Playing the Game. It is your opinion and none other. Funcom exacerbates this by tossing tons of nerfs at moving targets. Some opinions align and that is where @WhatMightHaveBeen statement was directed. These are still opinions and not hard numbers that a Designer or Engineer can use.

Think of it this way. You say to me at a BBQ (happened today actually)…that Apple appears really soft from sitting in the sun. Yes, but how soft is it? Edible yet? Ready to mush into a mess soft? Rotting soft? Give me some hard data so I can make a decision. Obviously we need to remove that apple from the sun right? But How do we do it? What tools do we need…scoop, garbage bin, rags and water, spray hose…the clean up of that apple could be just pick it up and gently set it in the trash or a real f-ing mess. So…make some data. Not just an opinionated observation that my Star Metal Sword can cut that in half and 153 other apples like it in 15 minutes of game play.
Note: Ended up being the Spray Hose Option.

@CodeMage

The approach he proposed and the approach you outlined here are light years from each other.

Actually they are Complimentary. What I propose is Underlying as a Base Foundation for those and many others to Modify the Base for Flexibility and Customization (Buffs and Debuffs fit in here as well). These are specific settings the adjust servers to the Server Admin (Funcom or Hosted) and can easily be accommodated in the spreadsheet to see what the results Would Be Prior to exporting out as CSV.

I am not pointing fingers at any one person here. I also have no stake in this race because I no longer play this game. I wish I could (daughter is on my a$$ to play her server ) but just too busy and I have my own UE4 things to work on to make money.

Let’s tap the brakes like @CodeMage states and Recap what has been shown above.

• In my opinion and with solid back up data by myself, daughter, and friends (Early Access through July 2019…and I suspect the same result now) the current Funcom System will be extremely difficult to balance…Fact.
• PvP and PvE can have separate Armor and Weapon (and Monster HP) data tables…Fact…and it is simple to do. (Sliders further customization per server)
• Do we have to separate the data? No…Why?
• If the Armor and Weapon data is Normalized to standard Tiering Rates…whatever those numbers end up being this will make balancing this game ridiculously easier. I gave my opinion above so you folks need to figure out your own values that make sense and present that.
• Modify After Testing ItemTable.csv => MonsterStatTable.csv Column B which has the HP of every NPC in the game. That will change the Number of Hits that an NPC will take. Damage Reduction also plays a role in this (Armor and Armor Pen).
• Sliders should be at 1.0 during testing.

As I say in different posts…if you want to press that B.S. Button then open up the DevKit and grab ItemTable.csv (FIRST) and MonsterStatTable.csv (AFTER Testing) and start typing your numbers and insert it back into the game as a mod. Compile and play. Less than 1 day…you will see what happens.

Funcom actually has a really good system in place! The DATA is simply built wrong.

Help Funcom with this and stop complaining about it. Make it happen. Find a leader. You folks know what needs to be done so step forward as a community and do it. I would even be willing to lend some support to this community effort.

Cheers

[CodeMage]

I tend to write walls of text, so maybe my point keeps getting lost in those. I’ll try once again and keep it as brief as I can.

@krix_ost

No it is not way more than 1 spreadsheet. All items that have stats are in that one spreadsheet.

I am pretty sure that the following things are not all in the same data table:

• weapon and armor stats
• the rate at which items drop from NPCs
• T4 spawn probabilities
• follower stats
• resource yield from resource nodes
• perk effects
• effects of consumables

All of these were, at one time or another, subjected to nerfs in attempt to balance out PVP. And for each of those nerfs, PVE players complained that it was unnecessary and unfair.

So let’s look at the cost vs. benefits of your proposal. The benefit is that the weapons and armor would get normalized, which would improve that aspect of PVP balance. The cost is that Funcom would have two versions of the same data table to maintain every time they want to touch those stats in any way, which includes adding a new weapon or armor.

The benefit is limited and the costs are extensive. That’s as short as I could make it, hope it’s clearer now.

[krix_ost]

@CodeMage

Let’s pretend that we all came up with a data table and that Funcom patched it in and they’re willing to work on maintaining it. What do you think will happen on PVE side when they decide that the best way to solve some problem in the future is to nerf the drop percentage of an item? Or a spawn chance of a T4? Or mess with resource nodes? Or the effect of a potion or warpaint or whatever? What do you think will happen when they decide to nerf another perk? Hell, take the 5th encumbrance perk for example, which a lot of PVP-ers have clamored against and which I have defended rabidly.

When it comes to solving the problem of “PVE is sick of PVP nerfs”, I’m firmly convinced that neither your nor his solution would work. But at least yours is feasible to implement.

I wanted to put this into a separate posting. It is a really well thought out statement. This response is directly at this statement. Not short.

With a Tiering Type System…work with me here…Say we all together (Funcom included) figured that T1 Iron is 17 Damage. Not that I proposed that number but let’s say we all came to a similar conclusion.

• T2 would be +10 over T1…if T1 changed later to 15 then T2 would automatically be 25.
• Multipliers are Formula Based in reference to a base Tier. Meaning change the Base and Every item tied to that Base is also changed based upon the Multiplier for that Tier. Basically the entire table moves by typing 1 cell.
• So let us say after Patch #2 we say +10 is a little much…should be +8 between tiers. Let’s tighten it up a little. Okay…right at the top of the Spreadsheet is Tier Differential. Type 8 there in lieu of 10. Table automatically updates. Export it out as a CSV and import it into UE4.
• I have a real issue with Momentum Perk (5th Encumbrance). Alex does as well.

The light bulbs should be coming on now that Fine Tuning can happen by Day. Test Live could be tweaked Daily on every restart and would only take 20 minutes to adjust and compile the modified data. Balancing Made Easy. More people would actually pound the snot out of TestLive as well.

PvE crowd and Future Nerfs. Nerfs will eventually go extinct in a Tiering System. Why? Because fine tuning Armor, Weapon, and NPC balance solves the numbers game. Period. Fast.

What is left is Players being Smart enough to Adapt and Figure out how to Meta the Animation System. Whether it is the Reach of Spears or a speedy Dodge Roll and come out and get two hits in before the other. These are what we call Mechanical Advantage. Some people will have the Skills to use them and some will not. We are not all created equal, thankfully. The PvP game will always have this Meta. Even if every animation is the same and every piece of data in the game is identical there will always be a Player (or Group of Players) that will have the advantage or try to ruin someone’s day. It is what it is.

Slight side note while I am typing. Bioware’s NWN1 I had a very nice PvP system that was very balanced (if custom work was done). NWN1 is based upon builds and dice rolls so it pulled back a lot of player skill (twitch reflexes stuff) and leveled the playing field. The computer did all the fighting the player just had to be tactical and use positioning and target various enemies. The AI (I made one in 2004) was very smart at flanking and really challenging players to use tactical advantage or the dungeons would wipe and they started all over. Brutal but we had serious fun. It was PvP 24/7 too so players played both sides in RP fun! Awesome!

The PvE crowd has it a lot better than the PvP people. PvE is very adaptable. I have the opinion that as long as the game is not making a Fool of the PvE player. Meaning just don’t waste my time on ridiculous B.S. that is completely tedious. The PvE crowd will simply adapt and roll on happily.

• AI works
• Few fall through mesh (Physics Collision)
• No hacking on a tediously 5 move NPC that just repeats the same moves over and over and takes 30 minutes to kill for Random Loot and a Fragment.
• Script some waves of adds that make things exciting. Do it Randomly to keep players interested instead of telling the follower to go hack on said NPC while the player goes out for pizza. The idea is More Chaos is Better Fun.
• Make the Epic Bosses (not the Mini Bosses) Epic. Do the above but in Online players need a group of 4 to tackle…Put a Sign Right There! Group of 4 Recommended (excellent geared). Breaks immersion a little but just communicate the Boss. Better yet make a Pop Up on the display like Exploration does and says Group of 4 Recommended. Epic Boss…we better bring our best.
• In SP Mode Epic Bosses would be Group of 2 Recommended (excellent geared) and would be basically the Data Table swap based upon the SP/CO-OP mode. Simple Stuff!
• Stick with the sliders for Servers/SP to make their own difficulty. Like so Brutal only sadist morons would join this one. Or yeah this one is for the hang out and chat crowd. Sliders are awesome for server customization.

Bottom line is…PvE will fall in line and be perfectly fine if balance is really solid…or even Good Enough. PvP will always be PvP if left in the hands of the Player but the balance would be so solid that only the very small 0.1% of players would really be able to Beat The System. So be it.

[krix_ost]

@CodeMage

The benefit is limited and the costs are extensive. That’s as short as I could make it, hope it’s clearer now.

Always was clear. There are 2 completely separate issues.

Issue 1: Economy (Loot Tables, T4 Spawn Rates, Follower Multipliers, Effects Consumables)

• Base foundation Balance has to happen prior to these being further adjusted.
• Economy Overlays (Pulls From) Item Data. ID drives everything.
• You are correct. These have multiple data tables. If the Base Foundation is fixed correctly these tables will likely never change. Most of these are also tied to sliders.

Issue 2: Base Item Armor, Weapon, and NPC HP

• Don’t need to say more about this. Already said enough

[nismo1969]

If you host your own server ALL but one setting is in there already (that works) and that is Thrall Damage and Thrall damage taken. In the sever settings it called Minion Damage and Minion damage taken but it currently (never has) doesn’t work. So balancing all mods is as simple as server settings.

[sestus2009]

On a private server I believe adjusting the 2 would end up with the same result buff player raising NPC,S damage would lead to making thralls weaker. If that option on Ps4 gportal server actually works. I have not voted yet.

[sestus2009]

Sorry to jump on your reply hadn’t read through all of the posts

[bbtech]

@sestus2009

raising NPC,S damage would lead to making thralls weaker

Not sure if it’s discussed in this thread or in one of the other threads, but I’ve read several reports that both the NPC’s and thralls use the NPC damage multiplier. So, apparently you can’t raise NPC damage without also raising thrall damage. If I’ve misunderstood what you were trying to say, then ignore this post and accept my apologies.

[sestus2009]

When I have a opportunity to go on my Gportal site I will check it out it is PS4. Been awhile since I was on. Have to check no one is online before I shut it down.

[sestus2009]

Either way no apologies needed. I am for a friendly forum