[PoM] could Light of Mitra be worth it?

Just a point of discussion: Could a build with both, Purification and Light of Mitra be worth it, under the right circumstances?
“Why should it, Quark? You cannot even have them active at the same time?” → The nice thing is, both buffs have a rather short casting time and a CD that is convenient for my purposes. So what are the underlying mechanics:
Purification adds a DoT on the target, if its in the range of your Blue Heal (360° degree, though). This is the go to feat for 99% percent of the PoMs - rightfully so, as its quite some nice damage.
Light of Mitra on the other hand adds a group wide regen of Stamina (neglegible), Energy and Mana to the Priests group; you DONT need to apply the Blue Heal to your Team Members to apply the regen Buff, they just need to be in range (probably: be in range of you beeing able to see them “red” in the team overview).
So I talked about a convenient Cooldown, what does it actually mean?
While both buffs cannot be active at the same time, their effects can. So if you start the fight with Purification active you apply the dot to the enemy. it runs for 11-12 seconds; once applied, you switch to Light of Mitra. Once off CD you cast Wave of Life (Blue Heal) and your team gets the Regen Buff (4 ticks, if “Improved Rejuvenation” is fully feated) while the DoT KEEPS ticking. Before the DoT eventually runs out, you can recast Purification of Mitra again. You can repeat this indefinitely, so neither effect ever runs out.
Now what’s the actual gain?
Fully feated you get 4 ticks of ‘ressources’ → I always received 136 Mana or some were higher - but then again always the same number in 237. Probably Crits. So lets simplify this to 75% 136 Mana, 25% 237 Mana leading to an average of 161 Mana per tick on average or 645 Mana every 10-11 seconds, thus ~ 60 Mana per second! Thats almost another Guild-Moonspill (140 Mana / 2 Secs or 70 Mana/sec) for the whole team. Especially for spell-weaving Necros (often to be found in the PoMs group) and Demos mana can become the limiting factor for choosing the Crit Buff!
For Sprint energy its randomly(?) 1, 2 or 3 energy every 2 seconds. For comparison: When spellweaving you lose 1 ‘Sprint’ every 2 seconds on speallweave x1 & x2; 2 Sprint on x3 & x4; 3 Sprint on x5 & x6. So LoM increases your spellweaving capabilities by a lot in that you don’t take HP damage by not having energy (5% of Max Life per tick). This doesn’t matter a lot when spellweaving in front of healers when there’s no other damage around, but principally it has a beneficial effect.
For stamina I didn’t check the actual values, but apart from T5 yakhmar or Coppice you don’t run into stamina issues that often, so that’s no selling point~

Now what’s the trade-off? Spec wise you don’t sacrifice too much. If this (http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v2_1182e6fc2e7602e7c42ec0c2e8f02e9502ec722ea182eba92eae12eda02ea802ee682eecc2ee002ef2c2f05c2f0c02f1ec2f24e2f2b22f5d02f5082f7c42f56e) is the gold standard for supportitive Divinity builds (give or take 2 points in “Crucify” over “Glowing Radiance” or “Empowered Repulse” over “Divine Intervention”) you could go with something like this instead: http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v2_1182e6fc2e7602e7c42ec0c2e8f02e9b42e9502ed392ec712ea182eae12eda02ea802ee682eecc2ee002ef2c2f05c2f0c02f1ec2f24e2f2b22f5d02f5082f7c42f56e
So you lose some Damage on a filler cast (Repulse) and 1 point in a 60secs CD buff for a single cast (“Force of Will”).
Rotation wise you cast an additional “Wave of Life” every 11-12 seconds and you roughly lose 1 Smite every 11-12 seconds for switching Buffs. But having 2x 1 Seconds cast is often better than 1x 2 Seconds cast, when it comes down to ‘filler’ casts like Smite (delaying Purifying Light for another seconds f.e.). Im not sure if this messes with “Holy Storm” building, I’m no Pom rotation expert :wink:

Do you see any potential in this? What are fights where this has some value for your team? Where is it neglegible? Feel free to discuss.

Hi, didn’t do the math, but you might lose a lot of time switching buffs for useless regens.
Nearly every caster wants silver twilight, so there are no more mana issues.

Just heal spellweavers and focus on dmg, i don’t think light of mitra is worth considering.

This is what i thought too.

Fun to have something to read here tho. Your first specc you posted looks abit diffrent then what im used to seeing, ppl in high raiding usually skips force of will all together. Might be that the points work out in your favor the same way tho, im not home so i cant check before next week.

Gaining mana for the group isnt that important since we got the crazy manatap from slithering chaos / raidfinderrings its rarely a problem.

The energyfactor might be relevant in a few specific timers with longer runduration for group. i cant think of a hightier encounter where you are allowed to spellweave for long enough to the point where you are running out of energy (most sw classes can afford clocking energy-buff while waiting for critbuff and other dps buffs)

First off, i like that you try diffrent things and still trying to improve. And with that said i’m going to start my roast. (jokes) :smiley:

As the others mentioned there’s no real reason to use light of mitra. The buffs it gives doesn’t really help anyone. If you struggle with mana you will still be struggling with the buff from the pom.
Another thing to mention is that you give up 2 points in Crucify which buffs one out of 3 things that does morst of the poms damage. (smite, condemnation and HC).

One other thing to keep in mind is that with your spec you give up searing light, lance of mitra and prolific strikes and thats gonna hurt your aoe damage alot. In my point of view either Lance or prolific strikes is needed in a pomspec to deal heavy aoe damage.

Clarity of mind and force of will was never a good idea in my point of view and i’ve had many talks about this over the years with other veteran poms. Some like it, some don’t. Me personally i never felt like it gave me any increase in damage at all.

/Ubermiley the healbot

I’m copy&pasting my Discord post, so the context is not the exact same, but you’ll get the point:
on a further note I was pondering, whether this could by useful by leading to a paradigm switch, in that ToSes have to provide the Manaleech for their casters via “Coalesce Ether”. So - apart from blood mana every 90 seconds- a Tos provides 4% group wide Mana Leech (+ something which is hard to quantify via “Storm Reaglia” / “Storm Crown”). Lets say an average necro / demo provides something like 1500 dps that actually leeches (Pet damage doesn’t count). With 4% Manaleech that’s 0.04 * 1500 = 60 Mana per second - thus pretty much the same as “Light of Mitra” does. Now let’s say that a PoM fullfills the role of keeping the mana stable instead of a tos. What Design space does this open for a Raid comp? Or how can a Tos spec, if it is not required to feat Mana Leech for the group: Could a “General Tree” Tos build be viable? Imagine such a build for the Zelandra fight → http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v22_11c66afc668a466cee66a95669d066a3066c2438274382d63872266c8939660385f4385923933d3884c395fc384c8394043865c39020388b0
you feed your own mana requirements by feating “Ether Discharge” - and ideally silver twilight buff; then you decrease your own hate and increase your tanks OR you feat general tree’s protection, which in return might allow you to wear another dps ring or gives an extra buffer for more redundancy, surviving the Aoe or Zelandras root cast, once things go downhill - for whatever reason. “Exemplar” and “Spirit of Vitality” compensate for the possible loss of Lightning tree’s consti and Magic Damage while “Vengeance of the Gods” underlines the bursty nature of a Tos with “Aura of Nebthu” and maybe Coils.
Note that this build has 14 points to spare, which could go into: Consti, Hit Rating & magic damage (Lightning tree); could be invested into “Thunder Storm” - if you’re still in the pet necros group; Bubble or Faithful of Set could be feated, etc.
Note that while the Pom might lose some DPS due to switching Buffs, the Pom itself still decides, whether to switch in a certain phase (e.g. Zelandra Burst) or not; so both Tos and Pom can still do “max dps” when required.

so from my post above: Poms Regen ist almost the same as a Tos’ group wide passive buff, so is a tos not required to spec Manaleech any longer, once everyone has Silver Twilight?
On the other hand, most replies I got circled around points in the Divinity feat trees not beeing set optimally, like Holy Accession doesnt deserve more than 1 point, Clarity of Mind is crap, Empowered Impulse doesnt work etc. → but all that does is supporting my idea, that it’s not much of a loss to feat “Light of Mitra” anyway, whether one decides to actively use it or not.
For Crucify: You actually have to decide, whether you buff a part of your own damage by a bit or if you buff the whole Raid with “Glowing Radiance”, unless you wanna sacrifice Searing Eye, and the free Smite every 10-12 seconds

It really depends your team has silver twilight or not. If most casters don’t have it, overall group’s dps must be higher with light of mitra. Moreover, purification’s range is really short, you are not really using it if you position yourself behind a bunch of tanks/dps but need to stand beside tanks to trigger it and facing left/right to heal. So I still using light of mitra in most pugs/alts raid.

This specc is decreasing your own and others dmg while upping minus hate, fighting its own purpose abit. Even good toses rarely have aggro issues in a evenly skilled raidsquad (unless they exploit)

From my perspective, nothing, because you want to go down to Column lightning & Force of lightning (sometimes even fangs of set) as a tos, so it makes sense to specc into mana tap (the other option being lightning strike which u dont use else for filler).

Use two dps rings regardless :slight_smile:

You survive the zelandra aoe by using the right healingspells, 6 healers should have no problem covering the aoes with their standard heals + AA.

I think the cd is too long and effect is too weak to adress the lowered magicdmg, and the loss of column lightning + force of lightning (increases dmg of targeted ally and ppl around ally.

Conan-raids have been done for years now with very stream-lined speccs that focuses more on dmg then utility, that goes for all three archtypes. The reason for this is that gear has been outpowering the amount of challange the game offers us. While its fun and awesome to theorycraft i get the feeling that you try to find sollutions for problems that shouldnt be issues for a raidsquad that plays the boss-mechanics as intended. Ofcourse mistakes happens, but should you account for that in general speccs? I dont think so. For example the zelandra aoe. Should you really sacrifice your dmg to help ppl survive it, when you shouldnt have an issue outhealing it with basic healingtools? Maybe in less experienced raidsquads it could be of help, but remember that if players do the right thing, dps is king :slight_smile: speccs shouldnt allow for people to do mistakes. thus i dont see this discovery as a potential shift of “paradigm”.

Blockquote This specc is kind of just decreasing your own dmg while upping the minus hate. Toses playing bread and butter specc which is heavily focused on dmg rarely have aggro issues as long as the tanks are “ok-decent”

how does this iteration of the spec decrease your personal damage: http://joharaoc.eu/feat?link=v22_11c66afc668a466cee66a95669d066a3066c2438274382d63872266c8939660385f4385923933d3884c395fc384c8394043865c39020388b0389e038e2c39213

you have more Magic damage than the standard build and you have a base spell damage buff which perfectly alligns with your Coils CD. so ideally you buff yourself up with: SW buff max dps and +base spell damage, use Call Lightning, have applied ruin wrecks and torments and then use PotSR (fully feated) + Vengeance of the Gods before firing Coils (and Aura every other rotation); i dont think that Column outweighs those additional buffs due to its long casting time, but i dont have data to support that. Force of Lightning is hard to evaluate, as it depends on target protection, positioning of the group and timing; but for PERSONAL damage, this build should be superior

Column lightning scales really well with t6 gear, you can crit up to 15k on targets with decent to high protection cos of various spell pen.

But also you didnt specc thunder storm that boosts your necros pets, something you should always have in raidsetting.

spark storm debuffs the target and is really good at forming dynamic rotations on the fly without running out of spells to use, some fights doesnt allow you to always follow your idea of buffing your best spells. You basically stripped your arsenal of 4 important spells to put all eggs in one basket for the big cds

Try putting it on a pom before HC on any fight (esp zalandra burnphase), compare it by not putting it on the next pull. you will see a nice difference that you miss out on with that specc.

I dont gave t6 gear on my tos yet, but with t4 / 3.5 and yellow priest mix column is pretty underwhelming. Thunder storm should be feated, when you have pet nec in group, but the nec is usually not in the tanks group, that wants the +hate (note that this is just one iteration, you have like 14 flex points), this is just the most egoistic / bursty build (though the hp and +hate still makes it supportive).

To have spark storm Proccing while SF is not running (like 2 seconds between the SFs) while also having Sparks off Cd and not delaying your next SF: how unlikely is that? Iirc spark storm doesnt trigger during SF. Or am i missing sth. Important about spark storm here?

Btw: I’m not trying to force a new paradigm here, im here to discuss what one can win by feating LOM, which doenst have much ofa cost and where can you use that potential design space. Possibly it can help by liberating the tos from having to feat mana leech, maybe it helps for aggro sensitive fights like vistrix t5 or maybe its a nice feature for guaranteeing mana/stamina forthe yakhmar block or reducing the harm of nauseating backlash in erlik.
Even if this only helps in carrying a group of noobs thru coppice HM, we might have a pretty specific field of use.
prolly its justa question of inner paradigms: do you wanna max out for cases where everything is going as planned, or do you prepare for when things go south

Referring to your idea of alternating between light of mitra (lom) and purification of mitra (pom):
If you wanna keep both effects (mana reg and dot) active, you will use wave of life (wol) more often than “needed”. Fully feated mana-reg from lom lasts 9 secs, dot from pom is 11 secs. You start with pom-buff, use wol (0.5 secs), cast lom (1 sec), fillercast (2 secs = 1 smite), wol (0.5 secs), pom (1 sec), fillercasts (6 secs = e.g. condemnation (with holy storm active) or mitras searing eye + smite + rebukeand cleansing fire or repulse), wol (0.5 secs), lom (1 sec), wol (0.5 secs), … (you’ll loose 1 tick of mana-reg, if you use that rotation, but won’t refresh dot of pom before it ran out).
1 cycle is 11 secs and has the pom-dot active, needing 2 secs for casting lom + pom and 0.5 secs for an additional wol. So you loose 2.5 secs of potential damagecasts every 11 secs, which is more than 20%

or

You start with pom-buff, use wol (0.5 secs), cast lom (1 sec), fillercast (2 secs = 1 smite), wol (0.5 secs), pom (1 sec), fillercasts (4 secs = condemnation (with holy storm active) or mse + rebuke and cleansing fire or repulse), wol (0.5 secs), lom (1 sec), wol (0.5 secs), … (you have mana-reg running permanently, but have to refresh dot of pom before it ran out or just put 2 points in improved purification).
In this cycle you loose even more time percentualy, cause it’s 2.5 secs for extra casts every 9 secs.

It’s not a total loss of 20% damage, since you can use your highpowered spells, but I’d assume that it’s a 10-15% damagedecrease, maybe less if it’s a short fight and holy cleansing will deal 50+ % of your total damage.

So it won’t matter that much spending 3 points in lom + improved rejuvenation instead of empowered repulse or whatever, but casting the spells lom and pom regularly will lead to a significant damagedecrease.

Sideeffect: Holy vengeance is triggered by wol and lasts 15 secs, but can’t be refreshed until it exceeded, so in your rotation only every 3rd wol will trigger holy vengeance while you can time your wol perfectly when not alternating buffs to trigger every time (although you miss out 4 secs of pom-dot)

It’s just as inefficient as maxing out armor and protection in general tree as soldier in the same spec. It might help in few specific encounters, but in most situations you miss something more useful.

You aim to max out in most cases,whatever the fight more dps usually solves more problems and even bypasses mechanics totally or consequently you have to deal with less of them when they repeat during the fight .In the few cases that is not true you can simply stop dps and handle it.That doesn’t mean you ignore the other aspect of the encounter ,i.e how much protection or constitution you need but in general you should aim to max out.

By trying to account for when things go south you just end up making them go south by playing in sub optimal speccs and doing much less damage than you could .Why take a 3rd rapture on zelandra or 4rth or take vistrix mechanics for a whole extra round when you can be done with it ?Why kite 8 to 10 Honorgaurd adds with a dot on you when it’s doable to kill within 4 or even earlier ?

Checked a log from my latest t4-run: Column lightning did 7% of total damage in average, elemental fury 3%.
Did a test once on my pom to check effect from Vengeance of the gods (14.5% basespell damage) and exemplar (56.8 bonus spell damage) by casting smite and lance of mitra. Unbuffed I had 1466 bonusspell damage and 1% basespell damage. Vengeance of the gods buffed both spells by about 5-6%, exemplar by about 2%.
So from my understanding you won’t win any dps by skipping column lightning/elemental fury and going general tree instead. Effect of force of lightning on general raid-dps not counted into that consideration.

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oldfox this statement cannot be generalized. it’s a question of whether you/the raid maxing out bypasses a certain milestone or not. The benefit you gain from not speccing LoM is as small as hisisng in the actual variance of your overall dps.

Fijn, 7% column damage is not necessarily offset by the ~8% damage bonus you get from general tree, as you can cast other things instead during that time, like another blue heal (Empowered & Triumphant Life Set), another Charged Blast, disrupt Sparks a tick or two later, a debuff or green heal. While there might be some gaps in a tank and spank environment you still have some things to do. Elemental Fury is a flat loss though.
Your observations with vengeance and how much it increases the damage fits with my tests on Tos.

want to add aswell that column lightning is used in a poor fashion by the average joe, you can use the column aspect of the attack in many fights in t5-t6, and i have a feeling it scales really well with t6 gear, its a massive tool of your dps arsenal when well geared. I hope you get the chance to see that if you gear up yours at some point. Also it fills gaps in your spell rotation, and if u dont agree, i invite you to come khemi and do a 2 minute rotation on strawman, well see how many times you have gaps in your rot without column lightning, got time this week? For science! :smiley:

There was some responses you didnt adress btw. For example what do you think of the drop in damage findahl brought up when casting more blueheals then needed.

The few casters that do have mana-issues would much rather have a %tap then steady 60 whole fight, you only get issues with mana when spellweaving with critbuff and in those bursty dps situations the %tap generate way more mana then 60 ticks. Bloodmana helps plenty with this too.

would any pom want to change their playstyle to something that worsens their own performance, changes the playstyle they presumingly like atm, while tos does the same job passively much better through taps. and you for real think that you gain damage that covers the loss of poms decreased dmg, and the neglect of force of lightning. Feels abit antivaxxy not gonna lie.

since I’m discussing this with fjin and others on his discord as well, this forum thread doesnt show every aspect of our topic.
so from what we’ve gathered, you might even lose damage from constant switching rather than just using LoM as default and not even bothering with Purification. And if thats true or if the damage from buffing around and applying the dot is more or less evened out by the smite you could cast instead, there’s not much point in making the rotation more complicated.
But since the cost - feat wise - is so small I advocate speccing LoM anyway, but just use it when you either don’t have much to do anyways or when mechanics explicitly ask for it; like pre combat or during idling cycles, when damage stop is needed mechanically, before burn phases or when there’s actually a mana/stamina draining mechanic. examples: Archlector in caster form (backlash and aggro sensitivity), stacking at Bat; yothians, while waiting for the stack to reset; doing mechanics that need you to stay out of Purification’s range (bombs).

regarding force of lightning: I’m a first day friend of this buff and even used its predecessor (the whirlwind) pre T4 times to support weaker tanks in T3; but I’m not sure how Spell penetration interacts with debuffing and setting protection values below 0 or reducing the mitigation below 0.
I’m planning on doing some more testing (pvp chars) on this, but i wanna gather more data than i have yet. So if FoL is in full effect in T6, even after 5x torment, ruin and wrack and the huge amount of t6 penetration are applied and if it’s used properly (→ hitting the correct targets at the correct time w/o gimping the tos itself), FoL is most likely not worth giving up.

For Column Lightning i wanted to add: if you have 7% damage on that spell, while keeping it on CD tightly it’s a bit above average than what you would expect from a cast, that needs 2.5 seconds to cast on a 40 seconds CD since its roughly 6% casting time of its cooldown (2.5 / 42.5). if it had less than 6% then this would just be a filler cast - so I’m not sure if this alone is worth putting points into (as a Tier 6 Skill that needs 4 points); on the other hand If you use it less often than you could (like every 60 seconds or so) the rate (7%) would be great and you should use it more often

spell penentration from t6 / rf stuff: 320 (rune) 875 (VIII t6) 150 (ashur 3)

Yeah i know m8, you brought the discussion to the forums tho. Just saying it cos If you only adress things you think you can answer it looks like you just wanna push your agenda and the discussion might suffer :slight_smile: But okay they got you out of hybriding atleast, good.

Since you didnt adress what i wrote about gaps in rotation im assuming you claim you dont have any gaps that could be partially filled with column lightning. Is that so? Can you show me that on strawman before your next raid? Im avaible finally since i got home from a trip woho.

Also it fills gaps in your spell rotation, and if u dont agree, i invite you to come khemi and do a 2 minute rotation on strawman, well see how many times you have gaps in your rot without column lightning, got time this week? For science!

sure, I’m always open for someone proving me wrong; but I’m not the best benchmark for this, due to technical limitations (low fps and bad internet fill lots of gaps in suboptimal rotations :stuck_out_tongue:) and I’m prolly not the best executor of optimized rotations anyway - more the instinctive kind of player. I have a rough priority list in my head and act accordingly, deciding on the fly what to do next.

Gaps in rotation is definitely something that happens even the best toses, and its one of the main reasons to add more spells to your arsenal, doing nothing is obv more hurting for your dps then anything else