Proposal: separate PVP stats from PVE

The more I think about this, the more it seems like the only way.
PVP and PVE should have separate stats.

Actually we have:

  • Archers that are basically mobile decorations on PVE.
  • Sword of Crom made less than useless when it was perfectly fine on PVE.
  • Lots of weapons that could be defined better but would create problems in PVP.

Honestly … why on Hell try to balance stats and make both system bad while you can SEPARATE those systems and have the perfect stats for each one ?

Archers on PVE are totally useless: they miss, they get staggered, they deal less damage per hit, they hit 1 time (while melee do combos of 3-4 attacks).

On PVE, Archers should do 4 TIMES more damage as they do now, and they would still be weaker than fighters. I understand that they could be dangerous in PVP, that’s why they can’t be touched, but on PVE they really need improvement.

That’s why PVE and PVP must be separated.
Archers can do x4 damage on PVE and x1 damage on PVP. Everyone is happy.

NOTE: waiting for the “game is fine as it is” guys.
There are always some in every topic :joy:

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This has been obvious to anyone who has played a mixed pve/pvp game for decades. At this point it’s willful stupidity for every game that applies the same rules to pve and pvp.

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Ok I am more than willing to understand this…how is PvE and PvP different to where the rules of combat physics need to be different? I am failing to understand why arrows should do more damage in PvE but less in PVP.

Because trying to juggle balancing between two games modes is still easier than making two distinct versions of the game, unfortunately.

That which is ideal is not always feasible.

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Because in PVE you fight against NPCs that have 1.5k - 2k - 4k - 10k - 20k HPs.
In PVP you fight agains players that have 400 HPs.

If on PVP an archer doing 50 damage is ok, on PVE doing 50 damage makes the NPCs laugh in your face before chewing your archer apart and spit it out.

In PVE my RHTS archer (with bowmaker dragonbone bow - master weapon fitting - and full agi armor) deals about 120 damage to a wolf (that has ~800 HPs).

My fighter with 2H Dragonbone Greatsword kill the wolf in a 4 attack combo.
Now, you think there is a single reason on earth to want an Archer in PVE ? In PVP they can make sense: they are nasty when I assault NPCs camps, but on PVE they are totally trash.

And also consider that Archers start with less HPs than Fighters.

EDIT: I didn’t mean to be aggressive (but reading my post maybe I was), I’m just frustrated about this whole situation.

@Tephra: it may be easier, but the result is crap.
It would be even easier to not balance the game at all and who cares whatever happens, but would it be right ?

If you have to renovate your house, you have to do it properly: you don’t place your toilette in the living room. What devs are doing with PVE (to balance PVP) is placing the toilette in the living room and then s*it on the sofa !

So, again, SEPARATE those system. They are too different to be balanced together.

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Then let’s talk about why NPCs are so high in HP or why players are so low…vs nerfing or buffing weapons

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I’m struggling to see why Archers need 4x damage. Also if they aren’t doing enough damage in PVE then they aren’t doing enough damage in PVP. Remember that PVE content is still available in PVP. People don’t just get off the cross and smack each other like they’re legendary gear pinatas.

The better solution is to increase the rate at which Archers attack. The issue isn’t with how much burst damage they do. It is with their DPS. Increasing rates of fire would also make them more viable in base defense, something PVPers have been asking for.

Just FYI, for the issues you bring up, I’ve ran archers in the past with 6.0 and 8.0 ranged attack modifiers and they are still pretty useless. You definitely want a rate of fire increase to increase chances of hitting.

Yeah…Im wondering how difficult it would be to establish a prioritize short attacks/priority heavy attacks wouldn’t be something feasible.

But increased attack rate for players using archery would just mean they do even more damage to other players. And we all know what happens when that comes up. PvP players screaming for nerfs.

In PvE it probably wouldn’t be a big deal, because NPCs have bloated HP.

Separating PvP and PvE would help, but overall it’s just a fundamental flaw with how Conan was built, I think. Or how it’s been Frankenstein’d over the years with adjustments and changes.

Ideally, I believe the SAVAGE system should have applied to ALL humans in the game. No matter if they are PC, NPC, or Thrall. Some don’t apply to NPCs, sure, and those can be left aside. But they should get a similar starting stat distribution.

Why should NPCs in the Exiled Lands get more HP? They aren’t special. They are just random exiles like you are.

So essentially, they should have been designed at level 1, similar starting stats/hp as the players get. Then you work in your adjustments.

  1. Racial stat bonuses for a minor variance based on the race and where they are from.
  2. Job stat bonuses to further add a bit of variance. If they are in a physically demanding job, give them a little more Strength, archers would instead get Agility, maybe some health boosting as well.

Then level up the character based on where it spawns, and apply appropriate level bonuses. Volcano NPCs should be higher level, and thus stronger, than exiles from south of the river.

Sure, some NPCs can get more bonuses to add to their challenge, the Named/T4s, and so on.

But that’s how the system should have been from the ground up. With armor having a primary function of damage reduction over anything else and weapons adding to damage dealt. So your gear plays a stronger factor.

But the main thing is a stable foundation for NPCs/players to be equals at their most basic level, and then have factors to mitigate that for challenge purposes. Rather than just damage sponges.

The idea is nice and all but let’s be honest it would be a lot more work to do this. Even if it was just a little more work I doubt it will happen. Given funcoms reputation and lack of overall effort to achieve balance

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Having Archers damage x4 is just the easiest way to have them ACCEPTABLE (not even on par with Fighters - just acceptable in PVE).

Or they could have x4 attack rate … it’s the same for me.
But having a Thrall that, WITH THE BEST EQUIP POSSIBLE, deals 120 damage every 10-12 seconds is spitting in the face of every PVE player.

Consider that it would take him like 7 shots to kill a wolf.
And that IF it hits with every arrow (which doesn’t happen: about half shots miss the target) and it doesn’t get staggered (which always happen).

In the best scenario, the best Archer with the best build need ~70 seconds to kill a wolf.
In a normal scenario, it takes about 4-5 minutes.

And I’m speaking of a fu**in wolf.
Now if the damage (or the attack rate) was x4 higher, it would be easier to kill a wolf … as easy as it is supposed to be … but it would be a SLAUGHTER on PVP servers.

Players would get malued by archers. And you know why ?
Cause Archers are already balanced for PVP. And them being balanced for PVP have them totally useless for PVE.

Now I imagine you play PVP. Would you like Archers to do x4 damage ?
No, I suppose you won’t.

But at the same time I’m telling you that NO ONE who plays PVE likes them the way they are now.
So why should we get a lamed game to have you play a good game ?

It’s not fair that we get the shit and you get the good. We paid the same money (to be honest, I think we paid much more, as aesthetic is more important for PVE than it is for PVP).

Wouldn’t it be better if BOTH of us have a good game ?
But that’s not possible if PVE and PVP don’t have separate stats.

Another example of this is bleeding: Bleeding is crap on PVE.
It’s only nasty when YOU are the one bleeding. NPCs receive laughable damage from Bleeding.

10 Damage per Tic is nasty on a Player who has 400/600 HPs, but it’s nothing for a Boss who has 10K.

I mean no offense but what else would they be? Archers have never been good against purges to begin with and that’s really the only threat right?

This one I don’t think anyone understands. The sword of crom was actually pretty overrated when it came to pvp. Maces have always been the go to

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I am telling you that they are useless against ANYTHING. Even as followers.
Especially as followers, as you have to worry for them too. They are a total crap.

And the fact they have always been useless (and, again, is due to the fact they can’t be stronger than that or PVP would be unplayable) doesn’t mean it’s correct.

Even with x4 damage they wouldn’t be a great defense, being useless at crowd control, but at least they would make sense to exist ! They can actually kill something.

Also, pardon if I ask you, you play on PVP or PVE ?
I guess you play PVP. Why are you against this proposal ? What harm does it make to your game ?

It can improve mine without harming yours, why are you against it ?
I’m telling you that keeping both system unified means that you (PVP) play a balanced game, while we (PVE) play a lamed game with lots of features that are totally useless.

You think this is correct for us ? Would you think it’s correct if it was your game to unbalanced and lamed ?

This one I don’t think anyone understands. The sword of crom was actually pretty overrated when it came to pvp. Maces have always been the go to

What reason could lead devs to make useless a totally fine weapon ? Obviously some PVP noob cried about it being OP and devs made it useless.

I don’t think a PVE player complained about it being too strong, as it HAVE to be too strong (especially considering how rare it is). But while on PVE it causes no harm (cause, let’s be honest, it’s just 15-20% stronger than a Dragonbone Greatsword), it probably had some PVP guy killed too many times.

Probably the guy had his thrall killed by the thrall of his opponent and started crying about that sword being OP. I can totally see the scene.

I never said I was. It makes perfect sense really to separate them but this isn’t the first time it’s been brought up. I just don’t see funcom putting in all the extra work and it is extra work.

That is the go to excuse for most people and I’m not saying it didn’t happen but It takes more than one “noob” to cry to make a balance change. I feel for whatever reason the devs made this change on their own.

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Well we kept asking for horses and sorcery for years and now we have them: I don’t think Funcom guys are afraid of working or don’t care about the game.

I may be against some decisions they take, but I never thought they were lazy or indifferent. If lots of people support the idea, I’m confident it will pass.

Also, I don’t think it would be this much works: they would just have to modify a few objects like Archers and have them doing x4 damage against NPCs if the game mode is PVE. The list is not long. And it’s not like it has to be done all in 1 single update.

Here is the solution. . . do not take an archer to a wolf fight.
Also FYI, the Relic Hunter archers and fighters start out with the exact same stats. The only difference is the hidden modifier is higher for fighters.
Archers have always been more for base defense, using poison arrows etc to defend against purges in PVE.
Also the Sword of Crom was originally 127 base DPS, so it has been nerfed more than once. It has also ALWAYS drained 100% of your stamina, and that is why PVPers did not use it.

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I never said PVP PLAYERS used Sword of Crom. Of course it’s always been a weapon for Thralls.

And, speaking of base defense … do you have Archers to defend your base ?
I don’t think so. Nobody use them except for decorations.

We use Fighters for base defense. And you know why ?
Cause archers miss with half their shots, deal low damage and shot 1 arrow every 10 seconds …

I have a line of 3 archers per side at my base (pure decorative of course) and they didn’t manage to kill a single NPC. NEVER. Not. A. Single. Time.

You want defense against Purge ? By the time Archers kill 1 NPCs your whole base has been destroyed.

And, DO NOTE, even with my proposal they would be useless without fighters, cause they lack crowd control. But, al least, they could kill 1-2 NPCs every now and then.

we use archers in pvp servers we fit them with poison arrow from seth god, but it dos not matter what deface u use till they do not fix dupe bugs , passing true walls and building under the map PVP in this game is for fulls, U will be a farm for cheaters ( they will brake your base evrey week for recurses) and yes on each PVP official server are at list 2 cheaters this is from my experience of 2.5k h of game play only in PVP (why do u think they stop character transfer ? :slight_smile: dupe for the win)

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Eh I see you have your problems with PVP, but as you said, archers DO make sense there.
Not the same in PVE tho. Not even with poison arrows I’m afraid.

Absolutely agree !!! OP is on point!!!

The main reason that pvp should be separated from pve, is that this way any given change will affect ONLY the audience it is coming from…

U have non balanced pvp weapons? Wanna nerf em? Nps … pvp will find their balance!!!
In the meantime pve will not get affected and the said weapon will be used against npc’ s unaffected!!!

Pve wants more cosmetics? Do not bother pvp with useless items (lets say huge benches to get the most out of stuff…)

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