Question about Tachyon Pigment

Hey guys,

Keeping this short and to the point: is this basically a sort of a poor man’s “efficiency” which really shines when on energy-starved weapons like KSR? And does the aforementioned rifle (any rifle, really) with burst-fire INSTANTLY trigger the 3% reduction? My logic is it says every 3 hits, and that’s exactly how much burst fire does, providing you hit the enemy with all 3, I guess.

I mean, just looking at this baby, it seems like a very specific build would be making use of it, but a KSR user, especially if -every single burst fire- triggers it, combined with, say, shotgun’s shell salvage with the passive, would make this a killer choice, even with diminishing returns? Or is it not as great as it seems? I mean, hell, people are paying major premiums for less reliable crit-and-rng based energy-return scenarios, whereas this fairly reliably cuts down the time before you get a chunk of energy back for free?

Thoughts? :slight_smile:

Bursts don’t proc effects like that with each hit, only with each activation.

This is specifically to prevent burst weapons from benefiting much more from proc effects than other weapons do.

I understand that special-using builds do benefit a lot from Tachyon Pigment though.

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Ah, that does suck. Still, with KSR my options are shottie for the reload, or KSR itself for the reload and inverter if I can get my hands on one and both of those options are pretty heavy on specials, so it does seem like a better option than crushed cities, even for dps. Cheers for the info.

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From our calculations, the average specials’ cooldown reduction from Tachyon is equal to 1.6s for a 20s cooldown. You only get a DPS increase from this head the moment you can squeeze an extra usage of the special abilities in a given fight, which i don’t ever see happening with a 1.6s average reduction and the current state of the endgame group fights.

I dunno, it averages out as long as fight times are random (only time that wouldn’t be true is if the longest possible fight is under 20 seconds). The only fight I’ve seen last less than that was lairs vs. capped gear players, which is like, IP300 content.

Although if you’re not casting the specials on cooldown in the first place it’s more questionable, I know I don’t hit Shell Salvage until like 7 seconds into the fight cause I don’t drop enough energy until then. (3 power moves each + 1 bonus one from my other +energy skill)

Have anyone been able to test the tanking side of things? How does it work when you are both being hit and hitting?

I highly disagree to this. At any point, when there are so low of a reduction in a cooldown of special abilities, it is in fact mechanically very hard to find situations where you would even recognize that you took advantage of the cooldown reduction. This is because, most of the time, you’d actually never do, be it because of the fight not being long enough (this game is all about bursts and short-enough fights as people tend to gear up past 1k IP), downtimes (that tend to favour longer cooldowns), or just human errors (not using abilities on cooldown), or even rotation constraints (boss invulnerable / rotation not allowing to use the ability on cooldown).

Yes, it is easy to calculate an average of a DPS gain of a cooldown reduction, even a small one. But this is irrelevant when in practice, you might meet “a gain” once every 100 fights, and no gain at all the other 99 fights.

Also, there’s something else that goes against presumed DPS gains, and which also rules the fact that elite cooldown reductions are pretty much always DPS losses : the energy cost, AND the desynch with group buffs (Opening Shot). As an example, in one of my simulations of a hammer/fists build, a simple usage of Rampage every 20s over a Smash was a loss of 800 DPS, and such a loss cannot be attributed only to the fact Rampage deals less damage then Smash, but in majority, the loss is due to the fact Rampage costs 2 hammer energy. Only special abilities such as Seethe won’t be affected by this problem.

So yeah, cooldown reductions aren’t necessarily bad for DPS purposes, but unless you have a very precise vision of the game and its mechanics to a point where you’d become a godlike player and theorycrafter (a machine, let’s face it), then there’s no point where realistically you’d have any advantage of having cooldown reductions for the current game’s mechanics and gameplay, whereas i can instantly quantify the damage loss due to the lack of an Ashes of Elder Things (for instance), and this DPS loss will be carried over forever.

One trigger cancels out the other, so this talisman is totally useless for tanking.

Well that kinda leave the whole getting hit part useless … wonder if thats on purpose.

It looks like a bug to me.

For what it’s worth, I’m basing my answer on a report by someone who tested one in game with a build they had that was special heavy, and it turned out for them to be an increase. Don’t know beyond that except it wasn’t theoretical, but was niche.

Debating if it would be worth it for my double ganger focused build. Tumultous Whisper adds to how fast i can spawn in clones, but unless the fight extents past a certain point, i don’t think i get an extra cast in, in which case it doesnt really add anything as far as i can tell.

It would be nice for scenarioes and obviously tanking, if the hitting and getting hit didn’t kill eachother

If your statement suggests “an increase” in terms of DPS in a “special heavy build”, then that person is probably wrong. Most of the time, when i see people believing something, the trend is to justify by slightly bigger parses without any context nor maths, or even by saying “this is an increase for my build”. But the fact is that any idea can be argued around based on a confirmation bias, and pretty much anything can be used to argue a narrative, even feelings - people see what they want to believe in! Tell your friend to come on this thread and to read my arguments explaining why cooldown reductions for DPS are pretty bad besides some exceptions, and if he’s still not convinced because of stubborness etc… Then i can probably find out a way to provide maths, i can just use several examples from my simulators.

The talisman is labeled for tanking, it’s not by randomness, it is because the best usage for specials’ CD reduction is for tanks. Unfortunately, tanking is the case where this talisman doesn’t work.

A reduction of 1.6s on average would be totally irrelevant for scenarios.

Honestly, just go with Crushed Cities.

I said if the getting hit and hitting a target didn’t cancel each other … that would be more than 1.6sec reduction. 1.6 is for hitting only to my knowledge.

That’s only true if you assume there’d be no internal cooldown if you get hit by multiple enemies at the same time.

Even with an internal cd ( i assume you mean the 1sec proc limitation), getting hit + hitting would give more than just hitting, so long as the two don’t deactivate eachother when either reach their max number.

If that extra little bit would make it worth it … dunno. As it is right now with them canceling each other, hardly.

Yeah well THAT is also assuming that if the talisman wasn’t bugged, when one of the triggers would go off, the other won’t reset as well.

But honestly, i don’t see any reason to “optimize” scenarios as it is the easiest and the most boring content to be grinded in the long term anyway.

Well i did talk about it in non bugged state, when both hitting AND getting hit counts.

Personally i like scenarioes and have fun with optimizing it around whatever weapons i have picked for my chars. Besides if it worked properly (according to how we assume it should have worked) it might also be relevant for tanking, as it is the same situation of hitting and getting hit at the same time. A lot of the time i only run 2 mitigations as a tank, and i know i enjoy the lower CD i have for my Elite in that regard.

Oh yeah i definitely cannot deny that it could have potential for tanking. After all, the talisman was supposedly labeled for tanking in the first place. I still won’t abandon my Mark of the Starspawn, it’s way too OP for NY raid tanking, it allows me to be able to cleansetank with Cleanup + Kneecapper and just gives a ridiculous amount of healing to compensate for the loss of chaos cooldowns.

It was an off-hand months ago. Utterly uninterested in chasing the person down to get into an argument with you.