Yep… no legendary kit. Put a purge t4 bs on there, still no kit. Also noted that the repair kits costs are now unaffected by thralls. Ok, they said that costs were gonna not be affected by thralls, but now a master repair kit costs 7 hard steel bar, regardless of thrall. I’m wondering of I am ever going to use a master kit again rather than just repair if this is the way it’s gonna be. I guess I need to tinker some more (pun not intended).
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About the same as it works out when they don’t?
@helium3 @DanQuixote thanks guys looks like it balances out.
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Worse. For some reason, the vitriol and dev-bashing get much worse when they say “we’re thinking about changing this” rather than “we’ve changed this”. Don’t ask me why, I’m not a psychologist.
I’ll probably still use the master kits. I don’t really like carrying all the base mats, but the economics certainly aren’t as attractive as they were.
The Vanity Table, more specifically the look for it, gets a massive no from me
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- When creating a character, all sliders look like they do not fit.
- When you start a new game and create a character, you don’t have access to new faces and hairstyles - not directly. By using the Random button, you can get these unavailable options.
- When you use the mirror while crouching it looks cool
, but you can’t see the face when you set the details (camera doesn’t come closer to the face but much above it).
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I’ve been avoiding the forums in general, but I had to make an account today just so I could get in here and tell you how much I dislike the changes both to fish / fish traps and survival that you guys are proposing. First of all, sure you took ichor out of the recipe for consolidant but you guys do realize that’s not all we use it for, right? We’ve got this new healing system where we need to make potions to heal, and we need alchemical base to make those potions (And for the good potions we need 20 base!) but what do we need to make that base? Ichor. Lots of ichor. D: So, first, please don’t remove ichor from cooking fish or shellfish. We need it! D:
Secondly, requiring bait for traps seems like a poor choice. Adding one more thing for us to grind for just for something as trivial as making us need to work harder to get one type of fuel for our furnaces seems… contrary to fun. It’s not fun, ok? It’s not a change that will give anyone more enjoyment out of the game, and in fact will probably contribute to player burnout. I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried to specifically grind for bugs or bees but it’s not a fast process by any means already.
Which unfortunately leads me into the changes to survival. I just don’t see this being a positive change, removing the level 20 and 30 perks that gave us increased gathering rates. It’s more grind for no compelling reason.
The most glaring problem I have is the level 20 perk you’ve given us in exchange - reducing the amount of water we use up from waterskins when we drink. Cool. So we’re investing 20 levels (not points, levels, considering the way spending attribute points works atm that’s a distinct difference I want you to keep in mind) into survival for a benefit that can be summed up as “I carry 1.12 less weight now because I only need one waterskin instead of 2.”
Let me repeat that. The entire benefit is needing to carry half as many waterskins as we used to. Most players carried 2, maybe 3 at most. So an average bonus of ‘You now need 1.68 less carry weight on average’ is what we get out of that.
It’s just, not a positive change. I really don’t like it, this is why. Please consider not pushing this change to survival or fish or fish traps to live.
For emphasis, I do very much like the changes to stations and the new crafting stations, though I believe they need a fair bit of work before they go live. (Ex. Many new stations that claim they use less materials in crafting in their description don’t actually make things more material-efficiently, and only affect fuel, if any).
To that end, I would like to suggest you please add a “Masonry Table” workstation and add new Mason thralls. This would be specifically for removing all the Tier 2 and Tier 3 construction parts (walls, ceilings, foundations, fences, etc) from our in-inventory crafting and moving them into a crafting table, where it would be possible to get time and material cost discounts on those too. I think that would be a very positive change that a lot of people would get behind!
Anyways, I hope you listen Funcom guys, and I hope my suggestions and opinions on this are mirrored by the community. Thank you for taking the time to read this. 
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Yep. Ichor is going to be a problem, although there are some other ways of getting it that help a little. Not much, but a little. Cooking abysmal flesh and killing certain enemies (e.g. salamanders, giant spider bosses) gets you some additional ichor to supplement the sudden scarcity. When you put it together with the alchemical base you can get from the supply packs, the situation improves slightly.
What I’m worried about even more than ichor is oil. I can replace it with dry wood or even coal when it comes to fuel, but it’s hardened leather that’s going to become a serious headache. I don’t know what it’s like with these new changes, but right now you need a whole lot of oil to craft a full suit of heavy epic armor. And damage kits also need it.
Hoo boy, that’s going to be a serious pain, too. I mean, I have a crapton of insects currently in my fridges, because I intend to use them to upgrade my Derketo shrine, but it takes a significant amount of time to get enough to use for bait to get the same quantity I would normally expect from a fishing trap.
On top of that, they turned the whole “hierarchy” of fish around. I already said even insects take a significant amount of time to farm up, and they are the easiest bait to get. With the new changes, insects get you the least amount of oil. 
To be fair, I completely understand why they made the fish traps require bait. People are spamming an unconscionable number of them in order to maximize their ichor and oil production.
Still, I feel like this wasn’t a good enough solution for that. Sure, make fish traps require bait, so they don’t scale for free. I agree with that. But the fluid press change turns this into a truly punitive change. It would be nice if they did something to balance it out. A few different ways they could do it, off the top of my head:
- increase the insect and bee yield from plants
- make hives produce bees instead of consuming them (not at the same rate as the honey, of course)
- decrease oil requirements in recipes that need it
- make each bait produce multiple fish (e.g. 1 insect = 5 unappetizing)
I already gushed about the positive aspect of the upcoming changes, but I’m really worried about adding even more grind where we didn’t have any. It would be really nice if the feedback here resulted in some tweaking.
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Appreciate your comments. I hadn’t really figured out how to word my dislike for the fish traps, and for the 2nd perk of survival. I think you nailed it.
I dont mind the moving of the 2nd perk to the 3rd, but the new 2nd perk really is a joke.
EDIT: survival just needs overhaul in general IMO.
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This particular of aspect of the balance patch is troubling to me, because the waterskin changes, although welcome, do not make up for the elimination of Efficient Butchery and moving Hard Worker from 20 to 30 survival makes efficient harvesting of resource nodes much less accessible.
I would suggest either combining “Efficient Butchery” and “Hard Worker” both at Survival level 20, or adding “Waste Not” water consumption buffs to the Level 10 survival Perk of “Raw and Bloody” as the two are both thematically similar, and then leaving “Efficient Butchery” and “Hard Worker” as-is.
Survival is already a relatively unattractive attribute to invest in and this change makes it less effective and encourages less diversity in builds.
Please consider making Survival more attractive, to encourage more build diversity.
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I agree 100%!
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One of the main problems is “Survival” as a mechanic falls off almost immediately after the introduction to the game. By the time you’re exploring away from ‘noob river’ as we call it on the exiled lands map, your ‘survival’ needs have become a background mechanic we pretty much ignore from then on aside from keeping a couple waterskins and a stack of food on hand. It becomes just a couple clicks we have to do so often as ‘button-click upkeep’ and then forget about again. Having an entire stat-line dedicated to that will always make its importance fall off just as quickly, then, unless it also has important effects on the late game. This is what the increased harvest rates on resource nodes and animals did, it made it relevant later. Removing that removes most of the point of investing into a stat for a mechanic we mostly forget about.
If they want to make changes this big to Survival without keeping that in mind, it’s going to fail to achieve what they appear to want it to.
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Yeah it doesn’t really look good does it? Especially if they’re continuing to stick to the ‘there’s no sorcery’ line.
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More bad news on the fish I’m afraid - you guys got me thinking so I went back into testlive to run some fish traps.
Minor change - basic fish trap now requires shaped wood instead of branches (brings it in line with shellfish trap)
Fish traps now seem quite easy to place - but I’ve not been able to place a single basic shellfish trap (improved shellfish traps were twitchy but placeable once I got the right distance)
Different baits do attract different proportions of fish, as expected - bit of rng here, but maybe not unreasonably so -
Insects - seem to produce predominantly Unappetizing (fish and shellfish)
Worker Bees - also mostly unappetizing, but slight increase in savory/exotic
Queen Bees - mostly exotic/savory, some unappetizing
Fat Grubs - mostly exotic, some savory/unappetizing
(In improved fish traps - fat grubs produced occasional special fish (seemed similar to old unbaited rates), Queen bees seem to exclusively produce ‘good fish’ - 1 trap loaded with them and so far it has produced 10 angler fish, 1 dogfish, 1 moray eel).
Added problem for fat grubs is that they are basically unfarmable - they appear to be affected byt the compost heaps accelerated spoil timers - so they only survive for 30 secs while in the heap (once removed this switches to 10 mins) - you can gather a few, but 5 compost heaps netted me about a dozen grubs - the number does climb very slowly, but it seems likely that large numbers of heaps will be needed to feed traps. (That said, it does also appear as though fat grubs slightly increase the chance of getting more than 1 fish for the bait (4 fish from 3 grubs)).
I will say that I spent the afternoon playing through a ‘normal start in the exiled lands’ on testlive - wound up with a couple of basic fish traps out, already with a bunch of insects in them - just from what was picked up while gathering necessary plant fibre. On the surface, that looks ok - but it’s also true that it will likely work out as around 20-30% of the oil production I would expect previously. So long as I don’t need to use it for fuel, I still think this process will probably get me just about enough - but it’s definitely going to be a lot tighter.
(Quick tip for slightly quicker insect gathering, in case anyone hasn’t already tried it - from someone that screwed up and wound up levelling 3 different derketo altars to 3rd tier - hitting bushes with a pick generally seems to gather about the same insects as hand harvesting (maybe not as much as a sickle), but all you grab are the insects, so there’s no need to dump the plant fibre etc, and it’s one shot and move on)
re: ichor - another fairly good source (actually, really good, depending on your location) - basic spiders can drop ichor when hit with a pick - eg the brown ones at the Executioner’s Entrance in EL, provide a bunch. Of course, this does no good for players based a long way from spider spawns.
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Whoa, that’s actually good news! Or, at least, in the light of these new changes. I’m not happy that I’ll have a place in my base with a bunch of compost heaps buzzing like crazy, but it’s better than mindlessly whacking lotus plants with a sickle over and over and over…
I have exactly one compost heap and it always has one full stack of (50) grubs. True, I haven’t measured how long it takes to get a full stack, but I think I can leave it overnight and it’ll fill up. That’s still far from ideal, though. As things are now on live servers, I can leave a fish trap overnight and I’ll have anywhere between 50 and 100 unappetizing fish (1:1 oil or ichor). If I wanted to have the same yield, I would need at least 2 compost heaps per fish trap
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On siptah so far it seemed like the decay rate for fish in traps had been increased from the pre-siptah rate. So, now that we’re going to have to feed our traps is like this decay rate removed or greatly decreased. Putting a bunch of insects into a trap and then hovering over that trap while I wait for the insects to process doesn’t sound like a lot of fun.
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Yeah, that’s pretty much the same calculation I came to. No more ‘fish farms as far as the eye can see’, now it’ll all be compost heaps…
(Improved fish trap with the queen bees has now gone through 40 bees for 1dogfish, 2 moray eel, 1 grouper and 37 angler fish - it should perhaps be noted that angler fish is the least useful of the buff fish (only buffs vit, same with dogfish (plus ‘charisma’) - eel, grouper and catfish each buff two stats and between them make the other two completely irrelevant). But that’s in a single trap, in the time I’ve been posting… Could definitely be worse, since the buff from a single fish would last a good bit longer.)
Yeah, that’s generally been my experience as well (though I didn’t bother with them in the last playthrough, so may be forgetting what they were like) - to be fair, that’s five heaps netting me about a dozen in probably a half hour - it’s more just the disturbing thing that everytime you look at them they seem to be ‘counting down’ 
It does look like they’re still going down relatively quickly - just checked the traps I stopped adding bait to about an hour ago, and they’re already losing a few. Looking at timers, I’d say at least the exotic fish (and the buff fish) seem to have about 45 mins - the others may have the same or may have less - they’re al; currently running low (which may just mean their timer started earlier).
Not sure how that compares to pre-Siptah - guess I never really paid much attention because they were ‘free’.
I don’t have any hard numbers but a bunch of us “experienced” players on the official PvE server I’m on conferred and agreed that it seemed very likely that the decay rate definitely had been increased. Basically, we all felt like we had to put out more fish traps to get the same amount of fish we were used to processing in a day.
The more I think about it the more I’m not sure this is a bug. If cooking fish and shellfish no longer produce ichor then ichor/oil production becomes a much more networked situation where farming the materials for one produces by-product that can be used to boost production of the other. That can, for players such as myself, be a lot of fun to setup and optimize.
It may be really frustrating though for other players that aren’t particularly good at thinking about problems in the necessary way.
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