Read that statement and let it soak in for a moment. While it’s commendable that Funcom is still working on the game and adding content, you do more harm than good by making arbitrary changes to major game mechanics as if this is still an early access title.
I’m talking, of course, about PvP. The game has turned into an elaborate death match with almost zero reason to invest time in building up a base for yourself.
You’ve single-handedly ruined any security a player has in their base in a single patch by:
Making god bubble too expensive to be worth the effort to farm. Unless you’re in a large clan, players won’t be wasting hours to kill 500 thralls every 36 hours to keep their base protected any more, especially with all of the changes to thrall AI which made it harder to farm them. Argue all you want about the bubble being OP. It is USELESS now without being able to maintain it continually. Players can easily wait for it to slip and come level you the moment it does. It was never meant to be a reactionary measure to being raided by a god - it was meant to be a prevention method. Especially now that it takes time for the bubble to craft, even if you know someone is bringing a token to your base, you won’t have the time to pop the bubble to stop them. It’s absurd and completely destroyed the ability to use it for anyone but the biggest neckbeards.
You’ve effectively neutered the ability for smaller clans to seek retribution after an offline raid. Now, unless you have someone to physically watch your base during raid hours every night, you have NO HOPE of ever catching whoever offline raids you. Before, the decision to raid someone came with having to make the conscious decision to make a clear enemy of the person you hit. Now, there’s zero repercussions. You have turned PVP servers into the wild west, where there’s no longer a risk/reward dynamic surrounding your choices in pvp. And you’ve effectively killed any social dynamic to the game. Even if you make allies, you certainly can’t trust them, because even if they are nice to your face, there’s no reason for them to not raid you the moment they get a chance and blame it on someone else, because how will you know anyway?
You’ve completely destroyed any sort of intelligent base design by lowering the best doors to 25,000 hp. That’s, what, 3 to 4 bombs to blow through each one now? There’s no reason to put thought into the way you construct your walls and defenses now, since the only way to get into your base has been turned into BY FAR the easiest route of entry. At least before, you could somewhat counter the slightly lower health by adding more doors. Now? It doesn’t matter how many you throw in the way with how fragile they are and how cheap it is to make a bomb.
That’s not even bringing in the fact that bombs are absurdly cheap to make now. This game already favored the biggest clans in a major way. The only thing you’ve done here is make it even worse for the smaller clans.
You’ve taken a hot steaming dump on the heads of the players that have stuck it out this whole time. Last night, I logged in to my server to see level 60s that haven’t been playing in some cases for over 6 months or longer, and yet they are immediately on even footing with those of us that have been playing actively for those past 6 months because there’s no security left. You’ve brought old faces back long enough to enjoy griefing the rest of us in PVP until we quit, and then those same players that haven’t supported your game faithfully through these slow times will get bored again and quit, and you’ll be far worse off than you were before.
insert replies below about how everything is fine and that the pvp population isn’t going to plummet to record lows after the novelty of zero-risk raiding wears off
Thanks for your input on this and I hope that we can get a proper discussion going and get a feel for what other players think. We’re always thankful for feedback, especially on balancing.
I know posts like these always come from a place of passion for the game.
With that said, we would like to balance the game around all our different player types. It’s a challenge but it’s something we won’t stop balancing going forward.
I am not sure what you are talking about Ruinous. I play solo for the most part and I have no problems retaliating vs larger clans. I think you may need to reevaluate your play style. Building big bases in a pvp environment is just inviting wrath. Have you ever heard of the saying “don’t put all your eggs in one basket”?
I play a distributed style, if one base gets wiped, I have others to fall back on. Stash spots all over the map to the point it would take enemies weeks to get them all, they destroy one, I build 2 more. The fact you can now pick up crafting stations just plays right into this style. I have not used bubbles in forever. Serving Crom, I do not fear the other Gods, I use them to my benefit.
Furthermore, here is another saying “craft what you need and use what you craft”. So many times I have raided a base and found a thousand steelfire, hundreds of precrafted T3 building pieces, etc, etc. I ask why build all this stuff and not immediately use it? Just inviting disaster imo.
I would argue the point was to bring players back. Officials have become…how can i say this nicely…PVE Bully communities. People believe they should not be bothered with the PVP aspect. The insanely cheap and easy bubbles gave false sense of security and accomplishment. If people are returning and raiding daily (meaning less wipe style attacks) this is only good for the PVP part. Sure it sucks that you have to log in every day. But before, if you got to a server new, or got wiped to nothing, or took a break and had to regrind mats on your home server, you were at a severe disadvantage mats wise to the hoarders who just hung out on the server with their friends and never engaged in the true PVP nature of raid or be raided. Now at least a casual game session/week can reward one with some melee, siege, and fun, without having to commit weeks of 2nd job time. If you don’t want to defend your base daily, either scale back the number of outposts, get more clan mates, or go to private or PVE-C servers. PVP, as much as it sucks daily, should be about fighting between clans, not farm and hoard. Plus I returned to my home server, and saw how lazy the clans had become. I was part of the alpha for 4+ months on the server. Not one of our outposts were less than T3 (we were in clan shamed if we didn’t farm the mats to get it to T3 a day later). I mean we had certain walls for outer rims that numbered 20,000+ black ice founds. Then we got bored, so we went nomad across 7 or 8 servers (which was fun and a valuable lesson in guerilla warfare tactics). The amount of T1 Sh1+ stone castles and outposts i saw made me want to puke when i returned. And i mean large, lavish T1 structures with windows and blacks smiths just clanging away. That is asking for 20 bombs to demolish and raid. Less if i want to go thru that new LP door. For as long as my tribe was gone, I would have thought the “peace” times would reward me with at least T3 structures from well organized clans to challenge me. These changes as i see them right now, are bringing fighting back into the PVP servers. Thank Crom.
Totally agree with everything. And same question, why reduce door hp? To make us do only wall and destroy them each time we go out?
Again you help guys who lives on a pike/tree. Bubble base in the sky are ugly and not fun at all but no way to build a safe base not ugly on the ground now.
If your goal in PvP is to build a “pretty” base, I think you are missing the point. I have spent weeks sleeping on remote cliffs using the base in a bag approach. Basically homeless, roaming the exiled lands in search of “pretty” bases.
(I have a feeling we may be getting better trebs, so those lollipops will be for suckers soon:)
I think we all need to step back and think a bit about official PVP. It should not be a safe haven for hoarding mats. It should be more of a battle royole with the conan mechanics. That is what will bring in casuals. Hardcores (if you truly are) will join private servers that share there game style. Officials should be as inclusive to all gamers, at the same time sell the mechanics. If some one gets hooked, then they can decide to join private servers or if they enjoy it, keep playing the frnezied officials.
I always see posts for blitz style servers. Well, what if some of these changes are intended to start making the official PVP closer to that, without deveolper involvement (wiping, adminning, etc…). It is truly a free for all, and if you grind 10-20 bombs you can have some fun.
As far as I understand, at least part of the recent changes were made based on player feedback. Others, such as the door Hp reduction, were met with some resistance.
I’m not a PVP player so I’m not going to comment on whether or not these changes are good or bad - but I’ve been around playing games long enough to know that sometimes time and experience tell us that the game’s balance is not where it’s intended to be, and changes are therefore necessary.
I do not believe for one second that these changes were, as you say, arbitrary. They may be based on priorities that are not the same as yours, but I’m quite certain that they were not made just for the heck of it.
Understanding and accepting that not everyone plays the game the same way is essential for a fruitful discussion. If you want to convince others that you are right - you must first respect the other side’s opinions or all you will accomplish is alienate them. So please, present your point of view as your opinion, not as irrefutable facts, and we can discuss the matter instead of simply stonewalling each other.
Why shouldn’t there be regular sane game mechanics that allow people to build pretty bases in PVP?
Why does an ugly base pose more of a problem to raid?
This is all about game balancing. I think Funcom could do a better job in this department.
As an avid builder on PVP server, I have a few suggestions (Also posted on suggestion thread):
Make hitpoints on doors be what they used to be. It was fine, I have no idea why they changed it from 50% of the foundation hp.
Introduce combination locks rather than (Or in addition to) lockable doors. This gives “thieves” a different way to get into bases.
limit how many gates can be placed next to eachother. (Similar to how altars work. Maybe make it a toggle on server for admins) Having gates with doors that open into mesh and into other structures is not what I’d call very nice. It also creates all these dumb cube-looking buildings with gates 2x2 for wheels, or gates 3x3 for maprooms etc.
Increase cost of jars. As a 2-man clan, we have thousands of powder, and we can have a sustained bomb-war with anyone for months.
Randomize T4 spawns a lot better. No fixed crafter spawns should exist, this just creates a poor meta-game.
Add new forms of siege weapons. We have a siege foundation, but the only thing we can put on it is trebuchet… how about ballista? Other types of trebuchets etc. Stone throwers, religion-based throwers.
Make multi-religion a lot harder. E.g. you have to do the quest to “win” to unlock more religions. This will suck for some people sure, but with respec potions available, it’s really not an issue. Like, really.
While i like some of your ideas, the more i think of it the more i see people wanting others to invest the same amount of long days of grinding, and that just ain’t happening. The dwinding PVP official numbers say that the game will die due to this thought process. There needs to be a balance between cheesing and 2nd life grinding. The door nerf opens game play for some lighter raiding, ie, why grind for 18 hours straight to get 1000 bombs, when i can get home from work, get 30-40 bombs, raid a door, blow some chests, maybe a vault, and leave.
Most of my gamer friends were interested in Conan when i first started in May, then they saw the bags under my eyes, and the missing of Friday nights out with them, and realized, yeah, too much of a time sink, i’ll pass and play fortnite and battlefield, etc. We need to grow the player base. If officials (PVP) have to garner to a more casual gamer to accomplish that, then i a m all in. I really want to log in, build a base, defend a base, raid a base. I don’t want to live vicariously thru my avatar, trying to maintain alpha status on a server of 10. I want to make enemies. I want to make friends. But most importantly, I WANT TO SLEEP NORMAL and enjoy multiple games!!!
When I heard people asking for player names to be removed from the log so that solo players wouldn’t get levelled by huge clans for stealing fish from their traps, that’s what I thought they were referring to. Removing names from theft of items. Which is a fine compromise, because if someone makes a flaw in their base design by putting stations next to Windows or leaving openings to get inside, they should lose items without the thief being named. But to be able to level an entire base now without having any sort of ramifications severely cheapens the decision to engage in raiding. It heavily favors griefing.
You can argue against large bases if you’d like. But whether large or small, there should be potential consequences behind your decision to raid someone. Nobody enjoys losing time invested, and now you have no way of knowing who took that investment from you. It makes no sense.
The worst part is that with how much time is between patches that even by some miracle if they realize this was a major mistake, the damage will be done and players WILL quit.
Being smart about building bases smaller and distributing your items is fine, and a smart move for solo players or smaller clans, but it shouldn’t be the only way to play this game. Building is a major mechanic and a huge reason why people play this game, even on pvp servers. What are we doing here if buildings mean nothing any more? Doesn’t matter any more. It’s a matter of short time before the griefers turn servers into a wasteland.
Some of us are coming up on two years of Conan as their dominant game. A bunch have already surpassed that. For me, it’s a lifestyle to maintain a presence on PvP Officials, and when I want to take a break I enjoy an RP server or a tournament server where we play old mayhem style. Personally I can’t wait to return to PC Server rat-holing it again.
In the old days we would put doors up at the top of stairs that we’d destroy before logging. Then climbing came, so we’d only put doors waaay up top above some prickly fences, once they were in the game. This door balancing is reasonable to me, and it says as much about vulnerability in each door’s in-game crafting description. And finally, if PvP players must have “bases,” I don’t know a single successful barbarian who doesn’t pull his airlock doors, fill in with a wall and honeycomb prior to logging, just for the frustration factor.
OP: this game isn’t all about PvP. We must remember our PvE brethren who play and enjoy this game in yet another lifestyle. If doors are too powerful, PvE players will not have as enjoyable a Purge (an important game mechanic) as I believe they are entitled. Doors should be tragic vulnerable necessities that wake all players in the dead of night, to wonder whether they reinforced them enough.
I’ve said from day one that bombs and anything that explodes really has no place in the Conan universe. I’ve never read a single R.E.H. story that depicted Conan blowing his way through a wall with explosives. That’s what siege engines or magic are for.
I’m one of those early access players that hasn’t played much in more than 6 months. I’ve only checked the state of the game when new patches were released. After this last patch, I’m back to fiddling with it more.
The latest patch at a glance lead me to give Funcom some pretty well deserved praise for some of the changes. However, since the day this patch was released I’ve had a chance to get in the game a little more and have found some mildly irritating things which, for the sake of foregoing repetition, I won’t list here.
To be honest, this game still feels like it’s in early access to me. That’s one of the things I found that mildly irritated me…it doesn’t feel complete. I would urge Funcom to, for the time being, forget about adding new things, tweak the things that are angering the majority, and focus on polishing up this rough hewn gem. People can play without new additions for a month or so, but I can see where more people might lose interest if the game continues to feel like an early access game.
I would disagree. Griefing is sometimes opinion based. If i am new to a server, on a week and the “freindly” alpha doesn’t like the way i built, or that i don’t chat, they wipe me. Is that griefing? I blow up you base, still a few thralls while you are offline. Is that griefing? What if i show up at your base when you are online every day for 2 hours and engage in melee combat, trying to gank your farming runs. Is that griefing? I think alot of the Alphas on officials forgot that the game should not have one clan just hang out and raid based on name. Maybe just be proactive, attack everyone. There is no ally system for a reason. Clan limits of 10 make it so you can join with some friends and raid. But most servers i nomad to have huge clans of 10, and about 5 other players. Basically controlled PVE. When a server is full, large clan wars are fun. But over time, it becomes a ritual, and not a game. Having different enemies constantly adds some spice. So i don’t know who hit us. Guess we will hit someone else. And maybe, just maybe, i will get some melee fighting in as well. Maybe it is time to only trust your clan. time for server wars to be chaotic.
Greifing is a term misused alot. The original form of griefing originated about 20 years ago on Everquest. Its when you were on a PVE server and gathered a bunch of monsters and dumped them on another group that was farming a spot to get them killed. The idea is to wipe them out and take their spot.
Of course this quickly led to it being against the rules by 989 Studios/Verant (now known as Daybreak). But the interesting part is it was allowed on the Rallos Zek server and the other Zek servers as well. In PVP it wasn’t considered griefing, it was considered emergent gameplay.
Alot of people have lost sight of what PVP is. What it started as. And what it would always be.
PVP is not fair. Those with the greater skill, or the best gear, or even the greater numbers will likely win. Remember for every hour you spend in the game, getting better or getting gear. Someone may have spent and equal amount outside the game building up friendships, agreements, and alliances. Why shouldn’t that be rewarded?
Lets say you’ve got 200 hours on a server. You’ve reached level 60, you have a decent little base. And then some bastards who have less than 100 hours each, still managed to hit 60 and get gear because they worked together come over and wipe you out. No defense, its a 4v1 utter trouncing.
Is this fair? Hell no it ain’t. But it is right? Absolutely, this is PVP. Everything is right. Might makes right. And the reason for this is those 4 people have been gaming together for years. Why shouldn’t that effort be rewarded? Yeah you’ve got 100 hours on each of them. But they’ve got years on you outside the game. Why wouldn’t that cooperation, friendship, and camaraderie be rewarded?
Making PVP fair by limiting what they could do to you makes that effort pointless. Some games try to do this. Some make it so friends cannot play together on the same ‘team’. Those games don’t do so well. Everyone likes to play with their friends.
Because they can’t make it on their own? Maybe, maybe not. Its besides the point. You’re still getting trounced one way or another. As you should be. PVP is not fair.
PVP is not nice. I have played online games for the better part of 25 years. One thing that always sticks out at me is back in the mid to late 90s playing MW3, was the community rule (an honor agreement by the players) to not aim for the legs of an opponents mech. The reason being is the destruction of one leg was the destruction of the mech. In the table top, it only meant you were prevented from moving. But in MW3, they coded a legging to mech destroyed.
On paper it sounded like something reasonable. We want duels and fights just to last a little longer. So the group I ran with agreed to it for a time. Sounded great. Except for one problem that I noticed. So in MW3 you have three different HTAL dispays. One with the 3d model of the mech that would turn parts red as they got damaged (default), a 2d display showing each part going from blue to red to black, and a bar display showing armor values in longer green bars with red showing damage.
I was weird in the fact that I would use the 3rd one. I liked to see how much armor locations had. I notices legs on many people to have no green bar. Meaning now armor allocated. If anyone has played MechWarrior or BattleTech, you would understand that no leg armor mean a savings of 2-5 tons of armor. 2-5 tons that are being placed elsewhere or traded for an extra laser or two or double heatsinks.
That’s big advantage for making the legs weak in a no legging environment.
I had everyone who was under my direction to begin legging indiscriminately. Identifying the reason why and naming the people who took advantage of the situation. One thing I learned from that. PVP is not nice. People may try to make up some honor rules. But there’s always a personal reason, an agenda that helps them when they do it.
So use every tactic, every dirty trick, and every advantage that isn’t a hack or exploit to your advantage. Because PVP is not nice. If you don’t do it, it WILL be done to you.
PVP is brutal. Never mind the fact that it is based in the Hyborian Age in this game. The goal of PVP is ultimately to be the last man standing. The goal of a player or group is to submit every player and group on a server.
Many claim this will kill a server or kill the game. That’s the point. There has to be a victory sometime. And being the last group left on a server is a clear sign of that. And then you have players who will claim to be heroes and try to prevent this from happening. If ‘heroes’ don’t show up, you win. If they do, you get a good challenge. Its a win-win situation.
I use a basketball analogy quite a bit in these discussions because growing up, we didn’t have internet. Competitive games on the home console of the Intelivision and NES were few and far between. We had arcades in which I could afford to play later. But most of the competitiveness comes from being a young kid at the local park. Being 8 around those ages 10-45 was a real experience of how competition doesn’t really care how good or strong you are.
But back to the subject at hand. Why would players actively engage in brutal gameplay if it will chase off other players. Think about this, if I shoot hoops with my younger nephew. I’m gonna hold back. I want him to have a good time. But that is never going to quite scratch that competitive itch. I’m going to need something a bit more challenging. Eventually that means trouncing someone who I don’t know who isn’t related to me. In the hopes they know someone who is an equal or even better… someone who is more challenging. If no one shows up, then you simply pack up and go home.
If there’s no challenge. Whats the point? Claim your victory and move on. If it kills a server, find a new server. If it kills the game, find a new game. Why? Because PVP is brutal. The situation that Funcom has set up on the official servers makes them a brutal atmosphere.
There’s nothing wrong with desiring something different than something that is Not Fair. Not Nice, or Brutal. And the great thing is, Conan Exiles offers it on privately run servers. Many of them have different rulesets on how challenging they will be or how venues of play are. Players should definitely consider one of those when deciding on what experience they wish.
If they want the full PVP experience, you can find it on official. If you want a facet of that changed, I guarantee you will find a private server with the ruleset you will enjoy. Even I sometimes don’t want the full PVP experience. I either don’t have the full time devotion to the game they require, or I simply want to shoot hoops with my nephew. I mean I am quite a bit older than I used to be. And I got injured enough playing Basketball and other sports in the Army. So I totally understand when people don’t want the full experience in these things.
However, I’m going to allow those who do want it, to be able to experience and enjoy it. Lets not take away from what players like and want to do. They should be allowed to have their options too. Lets stay away from the insults like griefer and psychotic that tend to get thrown around. They’re simply PVPers trying to PVP. Let them have their fun.
You can build a pretty base in PvP, why come to the forums and complain when it gets destroyed? Frankly you can have 3 t3 foundation layers and have to go through 15 doors to pass through them if you wanted to. Think outside the box.
One layer of t3 foundation is 100k hp, that one layer can support 2 doors for 50k. Would you prefer someone blow foundations potentally affecting large portions of base stability or would you prefer them to go through a few doors leaving your base intact for the most part? I know when I raid, if things are not strait forward, I’ll use 300 explosives and blow the whole thing rather then 50 explosives to get where i want and leave the base mostly intact. I assume you would prefer mostly intact.
These changes affect me in very minimal ways due to the fact I don’t build big… and I’ve run 1300h solo.
I build where people don’t look. I guess it’s a learned skill or uncommon sense. I used to hoard my items… when I had less than 100h. learned that the hard way… just like everything else in survival games
You’d think people would have put 1+1 together from just basic history involving sieges , castles, army and country. Pretty castles have pretty loot and people are greedy. = recipe for raid
You want a big obnoxious castle? you should have a suitable army to defend it or expect to be raided and build appropriate caches.
Seems a lot of the time, people are just asking to be raided due to how obvious their location is.
Being close to resources means nothing if you’re fighting 5 other clans to get a portion of them. I’d rather not fight for scraps and risk losing my current scraps. Just my 2 cents.
Im not complaining about anything being destroyed.
I just pointed out that “You have to build ugly to be ‘good’ in PVP” - is nonsense.
I build pretty bases, they get blown up, I repair them.
But the 50% reduction of door HP makes little/no sense.
Not that I care, I already had multi-door entry architecture setup, and it’s worked well enough for me so far. But for people to run around and scream that you can’t build pretty bases in PVP is just… not true.
The server I play with has been described as a “social experiment” (hi Pete!) and we practice democracy and transparency. There’s not much in the way of raiding but we do set up PVP events and similar things to keep life in the Exiled Lands interesting.
I do not disagree that the low HP cost for doors seems counter-intuitive, however, I wanted to offer a different perspective.
Maybe instead of changing the values of things related to current PVP methods, we should be looking at ways to change the style of PVP we see in the game.
Maybe instead of siege warfare and demolition, we should be exploring ‘world events,’ PVE stuff across all servers including PVP, and ideas to promote cooperation among clans.
I may be talking out of my ■■■, and maybe more people love the PVP mechanics the way they are, but I can’t help but feel like maybe the game world could be giving us ‘more to do’ so that smashing bases isn’t 100% of the end game.