What should PVP be like?

[CodeMage]

If you’ve been on the forums as long as I have or longer, you know that “PVP is dying” is a refrain almost as popular as “Conan Exiles is dying”.

Now that we have the new rules, we can hope that cheating will eventually be brought under control, so that’s one “death threat to PVP” removed. Despite that, I’m under impression that most PVP players on these forums are unhappy with the state of the game. I’ve complaints about all sorts of stuff: it’s too easy to raid, it’s too hard to raid, thralls are too strong, thralls are too weak, “new roll” is awesome, “new roll” is the worst, etc.

Which brings me to my question: what should be done to make PVP fun?

I don’t play PVP, so I can’t hope to answer that question myself. The best I could do is say what’s keeping me from even trying PVP, but that’s a different can of worms. What I really want to know is whether there’s any way experienced PVP players could reach some kind of a consensus about the most glaring problems with PVP and how they might be rectified.

Now, I’m not a forum moderator, so I can’t really set and enforce any rules, but my honest hope is that we can try to have a civil and rational discussion. It would be awesome if we could:

• avoid name-calling and ad hominems in general
• address people’s arguments (and flaws in them) politely
• stay out of the discussion if not interested

[bbtech]

I am a Soloplayer, so my contribution to this thread will be very brief. I have a saying - “PvP ruins games”. There is too much chaos, too much griefing, and quite frankly too many players are usually [insert explicatives here] for me to enjoy playing on servers, especially PvP servers. I haven’t played PvP in many years. Put it this way, if C.E. gets me to play PvP without ragequitting on day 3, you should consider this thread to have been a tremendous success. I wish you luck in this discussion.

[Berserker]

Just roll back the game to november 2019 … and it was fun

[Kapoteeni]

I’m sure the average number of PvP-related complaints was about the same in last November as it is now. The topics may have been different, but if the forums are to be believed, it was fun only for those who accepted that spear + Darfari armor + rolling and eating was fun.

As I said in another thread - and I assume it’s kinda the point why this thread exists - PvPers are not a homogenous group. There’s no one perfect way to PvP that would please everyone. The current state of the game isn’t that, November 2019 wasn’t that, Early Access wasn’t that, and Conan Exiles in 2025 won’t be that.

[therryy]

I can list you a few things which made pvp worse or just things that make it less fun since the only thing I played was pvp for over a year now.

Beginning with the movement change which made many old pvper’s leave. A change to the dodge was needed, I know that. But they said one of the reasons to change it was to make every kind of armor viable so not only thralls wearing heavy armor. Guess what is everyone wearing now? Right, heavy armor there was just a “meta-switch” from light to heavy but you have still the same problem like before. If one type of armor is played the other ones are just so useless. In my opinion this should be a priority to fix since it would change a whole lot about pvp. More flexibility and options to play around would refresh pvp a lot.

Another problem that makes it hard to enjoy pvp are thralls/horses/the possibility to take a horse and a thrall now.
I can tell you one thing. Even the worst pvp’ers can fight for a while if they got horses or good thralls. I know there will be people telling me “just fight with high ground or somewhere with a lot of objectives around blah blah blah” or “everyone should be able to take part in pvp fights”
I can tell by heart that these people never played on a pvp server before like you could choose where you want to pvp. I’ll tell PVPGod123 to move his butt to an area where his horse is useless so I can fight him better and he will listen for sure. There should be more ways to punish someone on a horse, maybe some legendary weapon that makes it easier to push them down their horse or whatever but horse pvp with the higher dmg output and the 24/7 knockdowns are just so frustrating. People will come and tell me to adapt and play with a horse too but guess what: for me that’s not fun at all and I’d rather not play at all before I’ll become a horse pvp’er. I like the way you fight in Conan ON FOOT because the better player will win this way because YOUR movement actually matters then and you don’t have a meatshield with stamina for ages to hide on.

Well the thing about thralls should be known by everyone by now. They should probably reduce the damage output on to players about half of the damage it is now while he is following you but leave the damage like it is against npc’s, bosses or if they are in the defending mode in base. This would disable them a lot for pvp fights but they wouldn’t be useless for pve purposes or defending the base.

Having a horse and a thrall is just completely stupid for pvp raid times and I don’t know why you wouldn’t disable this. Just for pvp while raid time. Shouldn’t be too hard and I’ll not bother explaining why it’s even worse because you should know by now if you were reading my text, I guess

The constant nerfing of weapons is also a pretty frustrating piece of Conan what could be fixed by Funcom if they would take a little bit more time to do so and think about changes which make the weapon less powerful but not useless. I don’t feel like they really think their nerfs through but just go ahead and do something real quick so it’s not so called OP anymore.

Let me make an example for you: the whirlwind blades/ havoc and malice
Those weapons have been OP at some point because people figured out that they are stronger than other weapons. The daggers were the best by far - which is okay because you need a recipe for 1 fragment for it (theoretically you need much more fragments if you’re not lucky enough at gambling) and you need another fragment to craft them so you need to invest more time into getting them but a dlc dagger with kit is now stronger than those two daggers and if I remember right they are the worst out of every legendary daggers. Or at least bottom tier. WHY on earth would I still spend time to get those if all I need is 20 star metal to craft a stronger weapon?

This happens to a lot of weapons or playstyles. I’m not saying that stuff shouldn’t be nerfed. But I feel like it really should be improved and better thought through because the “we just gonna kill it and we’re fine” way is frustrating as hell for players who made a normal build with it and are used to use those weapons.

There are even more points but I do have some schoolwork to do so I’ll pass my final exams and can focus on playing Conan afterwards again

[Dzonatas]

@CodeMage

we can hope that cheating will eventually be brought under control,

The Player List must hide who is online for PvP. Showing it makes it seem like Funcom is only working for alpha clans. Instead of specific details, there could be a visual meter that shows the population is low, medium, or high. Cheating is too easy with it showing…

@CodeMage

Now, I’m not a forum moderator,

Of course, and this kind of conversation will never be well explored due to the rules. Details about cheating will close this thread.

I think it is not dying. It’s just the alpha clans saying they dictate who is on or off the server. Funcom says that’s not true because it’s Funcom’s server. The majority of players want to play and not be used as a ■■■■ in such discussion of Funcom vs Alpha clans.

Let’s hear more ideas before this argument is circular. I like the strategy of PvP that isn’t present with non-pvp servers.

[TINK]

They will never balance pvp , it’s impossible… they will never please everyone … I don’t always like the changes but get use too them… I enjoy pvp but server performance if anything makes it hard to play … example… been fighting every night this week… only died too invisible players… but when running smooth it’s always fun … Depends how much you care about dying or not I suppose

[zerog]

Normalize thrall damage with players.

Return Gods.

[Barnes]

@therryy

There are even more points but I do have some schoolwork to do so I’ll pass my final exams and can focus on playing Conan afterwards again

Rock those finals!

@therryy

I can tell you one thing. Even the worst pvp’ers can fight for a while if they got horses or good thralls. I know there will be people telling me “just fight with high ground or somewhere with a lot of objectives around blah blah blah” or “everyone should be able to take part in pvp fights”

It’s pretty simple to me, as both a RDR player and an actual horseman. If you get dislodged from your mount, she’s going to take a vacation for a while. Maybe find some tasty clover, or a nice place to roll on the soil if she took a bit of damage. But she’s definitely not going to just stand there.

If thralls could be equipped with a lance/pike, and you plant them in place, it might be very easy to “gore” the mount (at risk of great damage to/potential loss of the thrall) so that the mount throws the rider, and then runs away.

[Barnes]

I’m really dating myself here, but one reason I got very good at networking was to play DOOM 2. We had simple maps, simple play, and lots of weapons at our disposal. Sometimes I’d use the chainsaw, to twist the knife on my opponents. Sometimes I’d just stick to the chaingun. Other times it was the plasma rifle. There was a crazy rocket launcher, plus the BFG, but none of them were actually OP if you could pick your engagement and choose the section of the map to engage.

What’s different about Conan Exiles is A) there’s too much to lose, and B) there’s been no thorough balancing of the weapons one-by-one. The weapons are all there, ready for us to ignore. And because there’s so much to lose (gear, heals, etc) there’s no reason to try and explore other weps unless you’re super good. If/when we achieve a state of done-ness to the game, I think weapon/armor balance can be made effective. Until then, it’s a moving target.

My proposal would be to appoint a PvP designer, with Admin capabilities on official servers. This person would go through every official server like Henry V through his camp before Agincourt, taking the pulse of the battlefield. After this, there’d be a report to Funcom, and action steps would be put in place.

Preliminarily, the following should happen:

1. Server wipe
2. Avatars return
3. Horses made to flee after rider is dislodged
4. Battle zones created where gear is not lost after death (maybe dungeons)
5. Barracks zone created where players can “drop in and play” rather than only build and hoard
6. Limit to hoarding by rot/rust/decay
7. Limit to spam of items that tax the server: example, fish traps, wells and flickering torches limited – any workarounds or abuse will result in PvP Admin smashing the stuff
8. Reintroduction of Blitz servers, and servers with 24/7 Raid
9. Introduction of tournament servers with game modes [capture the flag, paper lanterns, DOOMed, Drop Zone and Arena; plus a durable King/Queen of the Mountain Zone in the northern region]

[TINK]

[quote=“Barnes, post:10, topic:119974”]
And because there’s so much to lose (gear, heals, etc) there’s no reason to try and explore other weps unless you’re super good.
[/
Oh I definitely think armour should be cheaper … a lot of people do not pvp after they lose one set of gear … it’s a boring grind on official servers to go lose it in a 30 second fight expecially for new players

Once I stopped caring about what I lost the game became more fun , but I have played a long time and accumulated a lot of stuff, another reason I don’t think servers should wipe but fully welcome gods back if they are fixed

[bbtech]

@Barnes

there’s too much to lose

Over the night, I thought of another comment I could contribute here, and this ties into it. The last time I enjoyed PvP, there was limited risk. The game was broken up into several different sections. There were Solo missions, there were PvE Co-op missions, there were cross-server small teams PvP, and there were in-server Clan wars PvP Tournaments. Participation in any event was voluntary (although failing to participate in a Clan Tournament would upset your Clan mates). All PvP events were scheduled in advance. That game was structured much differently than Conan Exiles, but some of the general concepts might be able to translate well.

There was no risk in PvP events. Only your ego was damaged. The small teams PvP was good fun. Sportsmanship existed back then. You could partner up with anyone, regardless of Clan affiliation. You could battle against any team, similarly assembled. You fight against your best friends on the server, and for those few minutes you are enemies. As soon as the battle is finished, you are best friends again. Clan Tournaments offered prizes to the winners.

Like I said, it was structured very differently than this game, but some of the concepts could be carried over. Maybe the PvP servers could create or designate a section of the map as the PvP Arena where anyone can battle inside that area. Maybe special events can be scheduled ahead of time. Maybe they can host structured Clan Tournaments where the best clans are given rewards such as a free map room or a stack of obsidian ingots, or something like that.

In the other thread, someone mentioned a “Capture the Flag” game that I think might be very interesting. Instead of everyone walking around with a target on their back all the time, only the top Clan would be targeted. If they lost the Flag, then they are no longer the target for the server and they have the chance to peacefully rebuild what they’ve lost. That could be a very good solution. It would be a self-balancing system for any server. If there is an Alpha Clan, they can never relax until the other members of the server have brutalized them and stolen the Flag. Then they can rebuild without much risk and reevaluate their base design, their strategies, etc. It could have far reaching effects. Not only do you want a good strong base, but you don’t want to place the Flag in the wrong place inside your base. If it’s behind your crafting area, then your crafting area will be looted and destroyed before they reach the Flag. It’s a very interesting concept. It could be a lot of fun, while also mitigating some of the risks.

DOOM 2

Ah, those were the days, my friend. I grew up on Doom & Doom2

[TINK]

@Dzonatas

I think it is not dying. It’s just the alpha clans saying they dictate who is on or off the server. Funcom says that’s not true because it’s Funcom’s server

I’m sick of people blaming alpha clans … there alpha because they earned it … they built , survived and earned dominance on that server

Don’t punish players that have played longer and just because a new clan that joins can not get rid of them it’s all of a sudden unfair …

Get a decent clan and go raid that alpha… it’s possible … I’m in alpha clans and can assure you we have problems with the smaller clans that have to cheat too try raid us because that’s the way most people play on official now a days … I move servers too try get away from them but guess what there’s always someone else waiting too annoy you that you can not fully wipe !

[WhatMightHaveBeen]

@barnes Nails most…

1. Everything should have a decay. This gives it “cost”.
2. Remove Clans, or reduce to 3 players at most. Clans allow for sharing of some of the high end game stuff, T4 Crafters. I 5x5 main base should not sustain 10 players, but it does.
3. Remove quick travel. This allows for regional based dominance, and adds in some sort of division of the map between warring clans.
4. Bring Back Gods
5. Have Thralls get reduced in HP and DMG, then give a buff if they are not on follow and on your land claim. Based the buff off of the decay timer some how. The more time left on timer for decay, the more DMG and HP multiplier thralls get if they are guarding it.
6. Expand on treb based raiding some how. Make trebs stronger so that 1 hour of crafting can’t be undone in 1 minute with very few bombs.
7. Utilize the last clan log in checker to figure out some sort of offline damage buffer based on last log in, then make all server 24/7 raid
8. Have RNG events for the server…IE Warmakers dungeon guaranteed weapons drops. the amount of weapons is based on players on the server at that time. It would be timed. basically draw players on to one spot, so they could battle for the guaranteed drops. Say if server is full, the boss will drop 5 weapons after every kill. so basically 2-3 drops of 10 weapons. Now i know this would be hard on the server with every player in the dungeon (possibly ). Maybe the event blocks followers from entering. And the events would only trigger if there were 20 or more players on server, running a check every 2 hours.

I have so many more, but these are ones that are very do-able with less work than rewriting the whole code.

[Dzonatas]

@TINK

we have problems with the smaller clans that have to cheat too try raid us because that’s the way most people play on official now a days

Ah… see… we are just pointing out the cheaters and to what extremes they go to cheat. It doesn’t get a pass from me. Of course, fix the cheat and not the cheaters. Right?

@TINK

there alpha because they earned it

So I think they have not earned it when they use the cheats (and worse). Now, we can’t argue this here. Being upset over the reaction of players doesn’t earn the point, either.

There may be only 10 people in a clan, but on the ps4 I find 40+ member clans just waiting to be among the raiding clan. So… 1 vs 40? There should nothing to worry about from the 1, especially if it takes 40 members to kick/completely-wipe the 1 off multiple servers.

Is this the way it should be?

[TINK]

@Dzonatas

Of course, fix the cheat and not the cheaters. Right?

Do not get me started lol

1/40 is silly odds , so personally I would just leave if I intended to play solo …
but not every alpha is alpha through cheating either

I have played on official server 2116 since day one of full release… been raided countless times, thru countless exploits(50 stat, out of raid damage,gods been stored and put thru bubbles, god duplicate glitch,permanent bubbles and plenty more) but stuck around and now have a pretty impressive base… because we earned it … I didn’t waste 5000 hours game play for some one too come delete it

On the other hand . Have also joined new servers and wiped pretty big bases with a decent tribe… it’s not impossible …
Horses I can not really comment … yes there a tad Op but I have been killed off mine also …
Thralls are op but I’ve also had a base that was covered in them raided in 2hours while I was offline . only op when they are following someone …

[Mumra]

I don’t have a vested interest in PVP as I don’t play it. But I do read with interest what PVP players have to say. I have a couple of ideas though that the PVP community may consider:

*Different servers for play style ie. solo players, clans 1-5, clan 5-10.

*Servers with no 5th encumbrance perk.

*Servers with no teleportation options.

*Resource caps - per clan, not per number of players in the clan.

I don’t know if any of these are possible but may be beneficial?

[Dzonatas]

@TINK

1/40 is silly odds

I’ll stick with the servers that have had the lowest latency. There is no other reason for this selection. If the connection goes bad or jitters the toon, I’ll report it because it shouldn’t be that way.

[Sera67]

So…

lets just Jump to idea I had for many other games…

PVE-PVP Scaling. %/Ratio of damage with set numbers.

Example…(made up numbers…duh)

Bone sword PVE - 10 PVP - 10
Iron Sword PVE 15 PVP - 11
Epic Murder Sword(lv60) PVE 50 PVP - 15

Armor would have same spilt stats.

basically… PVP is scaled, so lowbie isnt had a massive disadvantage, But High levels have a advantage with powers of harder find weapons.

PVP in general needs a controlled environment. There shouldn’t be clear winners in weapon choice, 1 update its spears, next its claws etc.
Weapons with 15, have no perks. Weapons with 13 or 14, have bleed or poison, or heal.

It should be easier balance when everything has to fall in such small margins.

Land Claim Flags… I suggested this idea so many times… Multi-Flags per Clan, to not limit building. More clan members, more flags to claim map. (main idea is to prevent flags circles form touching and full wall offs. And to give Flags triggers, so they can’t over lap no build zones. ) Flags can be broken in PVP, (purges) so player can take land claims.
This could also allow, Player to set flag rules.
Player Bob’s Flag 1 is set to self. Only he can build here.
Bobs Flag 2 and 3, have set friends on them
Bob’s Flag 4 thru 7 are Clan Enable. (this would help prevent the whole join clan, steal all your stuff)

More Siege Gear in general… I would almost say, throw away the whole “build it on the spot” idea. And go ESO route, were you (eso you buy them) But in CE you can make them. then drop them and use on the spot. Maybe add a small 20second timer before its useable.
In ESO, your locked in on it when in use, So your open to attack.

That pretty much covers 2 of my peeves… land claim spam, to prevent …well… people from doing anything.
And the out right unbalance so much gear has, and level gaps.

[Rohi]

Experience: Playing since mid-early access PvE with RP PvP

Bottom line is PvP needs a stable base…meaning it needs to be simplified so that everyone is basically on the known playing field. The items worn and used should be just ‘Skins’ or visually and animation different. The Base Game can be done this way by a Mod…but the DLCs are not moddable so this has to come from Funcom and of course Officials are not modded nor Admin/Moderated.

Example: All 1H Iron Weapons should ALL do the same damage. 2H Steel weapons…same damage. Light armor should give the same Armor…etc

I may be one of the original Light Armor Archers that people just laughed at me PvPing. Basically I was un-killable and then the light bulbs started to come on for others. Players constantly thought I was cheating but the real fact was I had lots of arrows, was very patient, and used the rocks to my advantage. And I would disengage quickly if I lost the advantage. This was back when the arrow would get stuck in our hand before the first Archer Overhaul. Even with the new Dodge I have figured out ways to easily disengage now. My secrets!

The other thing PvP must have is a Solid Admin (Dungeon Master in the old days…I am 38 but played NWN1…how I got into gaming! ). PvP in NWN1 had to have a Dungeon Master to keep players from Twisting the GAME in their favor. Players just know how to break game mechanics and when it comes to PvP…players HATE to lose! I am fine with losing but most players will do ANYTHING to win. Grand Ego I suppose.

In my older CE private invitation only server (and my new server) PvP was a real thing and it is FUN. Why? Because the Admin keeps it fun by reigning in players that try to cheat. Simple as that.

To be honest…PvP in CE is in a strange place. It does work well but is super easy for players to ‘cheat’. Alpha Clans are not an issue with a Clan Cap of 5 or 6 players. Other Clans WILL alliance and force the Alpha to Non-Alpha or even force them to disband. Seen it happen a number of times.