Again with the archery


#1

Please PLEASE give bows back the ability to control when they release a drawn arrow. Archery is NOT the same as melee combat. You cant apply the same concepts like combos and stuff. Thats not how it works at all. Archery is about TIMING and ACCURACY. With that being said, before the combat changes, we had both of those. We had control of when we drew and released, while moving, etc. With the changes you have taken away our ability to control timing. It’s a set 3 second draw or whatever. The human brain isnt a computer. We dont keep time with that precision. We do it by breath and heartbeat. Thats a fact.
I know you guys are doing something with archery. You took the crossbows away…hmmm i wonder why? Because they didnt fit ONE persons idea of how ranged combat should function? The combos literally make crossbows obsolete…which is why they are gone. because they are pointless now…because you changed the mechanics of archery…and broke it. Melee combat is tactical. Archery is more strategic. Can it be tactical, yes! Thats why we have crossbows, quickdraw(crap accuracy meant for close range) and POINT BLANK SHOTS. But that is where tactics STOP with a bow. Everything else is strategic. Timing…precision…

Look, if Archery is too OP for PVE or whatever, find something else to tweak with. Damage, the arrows, the bow, stamina, whatever. Find a different limit for the players. The current ranged combat is total garbage. Its nice you guys probably shucked out some cash to get some input from REAL LIFE professional martial artists. I know how to fight. I understand the mechanics. I know martial weapons. I also know archery. Two VERY different things. You could have payed me chump change to give you this insight and so much more. Don’t believe me? Pay some more money and go ask a professional archer…take my word for it. I’ve fought real time with martial weapons. I’ve felt the tension of a bow as I draw and, know the intuition and discipline required to put arrows on targets as needed. I also LOVE video games. You guys made some really positive changes with melee combat, no doubt. You nerfed archery to uselessness.

I love what you guys have put together here. This game is magnificent, and has so much more potential. You had Archery closer to realistic as far as player interface and action BEFORE the combat patch.

Please, PLEASE take a closer look at this. Again, I say you guys are doing a great job with the game approaching crunch time. Keep it comin’!


#2

Edit it crazy fast otherwise they will think you are crying because bows are OP for PVE :smiley: (Which they are not at all)
Just a typo tho… :smiley: I am totally agreed with you we have to controll our own stings.

And I do want to have spine shots, eyeshots. lungshots, kneeshots… Oh man all that precious buffs… :smiley:

And ONE SHOT KILLS if one is that precise.

I don’t care about the PVP aspect of it make them bows crap in that mode only… :smiley:


#3

They stated it will come back some time after launch. I guess they just couldnt do it for launch.

I think I already suggested changes to arrows. Like them granting no damage but rather special effects like temperature going up/down, bleeding, corruption being applied. (if any kind of sorcery will make it into the game with corruption needed to use that, some arrow reducing that as well)
With only the bow granting (almost) the whole damage - and only a very few arrows granting +dmg but then not coming with special stuff.
This would also help with archer thralls becoming dangerous, because one can ignore them more or less (keep moving, use obstacles…!) and they should be just as deadly as some hammerguy.

At least southern thralls are oneshot with high enough statinvestment, flawless armor and a certain bow.


#4

Bows are only OP for PVE because of the limitations of the AI and pathing. There are other ways to discourage “cheesing” with regards to the mechanics of the game. Stamina drain, resource requirements to make arrows, damage of the bow, damage of the arrow…SOOOooo many variables to play with, and yet we are nerfed because?

Hey if they have acknowledged this and intend on adjusting after release, thats understandable. I just want to voice my opinion if that ISNT the case.


#5

Nuria, where did they say that?


#6

In example another way to deal with AI-exploiting-Archers would be:

  • wildlife without ranged attacks running away or even despawning.
  • melee thralls getting out a bow as a secondary weapon.

I think I stated that one like at least the third time now. xD
But just like archers having had trouble with getting their melee weapons out if a melee got too close, I guess we can anticipate problems with melees getting their bows out, or instead suddenly being confronted with archers and fakearchers only. xD

It was the devstream when Joel (and his entire family) was ill. I think it was april 20th?
Maybe I am wrong and it was april 13th, as I am not too sure.


#7

Ohhh dude… :smiley:

We are talking about two different things here…
Abusing (exploiting) silly AI not makes it OP that makes it LAME. The solution shouldn’t be nerfing damage but rather make the AI more realistic.

So in my opinion you can’t say BOWs are OP for PVE because you need to shoot 600+ pinpoint precision headshots on the bonedragon with medium skills and armament (speaking of it starmetal bow and poison set arrows). While you can do like 40 swing from a 2h sword (starmetal) to achieve the same goal even without too much spec into sstrenght. So that 600 vs 40 is crazy nuts.

If one is good with the dodge, and has some ambrosia with him not too hard to kill anything with a sword.
But try that with a bow (even if you archer the right way I mean from a vantage point (again I am not saying exploiting is good but that’s how archery works it is not by any means a melee range weapon and AI should be improved to “counter that”)) So back on track if you try archery it is takes waaaaaay more time to kill anything than with a sword which is nuts. You said yourself you are doing archery irl.
would you hunt dear with a sword instead of bow? <- Wild guess: NOT AT ALL.

also “possible solution” to counter the “infinite” string draw, they can limit it with the characters breath. just like underwater swimming. (I know you IRL can inhale and hold breath again) and with modern compound bows you are not using “any” strenght to hold that string… etc…etc… but still can be a decent if not perfect mechanic to use that breath while holding the string. (especially because you can boost that stat as well)…


#8

Despawning would be a totaly immersion breaking thing.
But yeah simple things like thralls has climbing ability as well, or draw a bow or even some throwing axes or javelins out…
And wildlife do what wildlife do RUN as always… :smiley:

These would be “simple” things on the programming side especially because those mobs already doing something (like loosing agroo) after a while when you hop on a rock or something…
So it wouldn’t be a 2 year work to improve it for sure. :smiley:


#9

Sure but the problem lies in how long that would take. Or how difficult coding “proper” AI would be.

This is why I am trying to come up with “easy” solutions. (Second weapons, running away/despawning)
Even if one of those suggestions would break immersion.
If a player sits on some playerbuilt structure, the AI should switch to “killing” that structure, until the prey dies or the player falls down, becoming vulerable.
I think the setting which manipulates purge damage should be applied in those cases. (Making it 40 times their usual damage to that foundation.) But I doubt that would be easy to implement?

Also climbing will not help against exploiting, like I said somewhere else already.
It would be the same like with us. If a climbing player gets hit by any damage, we will fall off. So climbing is a bad counter for exploiting archers, who already sit on their 3 stacked foundations and can easily shoot them off the pillar.

Interesting. Others already mentioned draining stamina while holding an arrow which might be similar.

True. They should go back to their area more fast - and also regenerate their full health when doing so. Also it would have to apply even when the player on said rock attacks them.


#10

Easy solution in programming is what you already have. :smiley:
I mean they have all those mechanics in other places.
They only need to make Literally and If then statement and link the outcome to a function call.
so it’s like ~2 lines of code in C# or C++

despawn would be the same work so I wouldn’t advise that one at all. still you would need to call a function “after a certain thing happens” so that would be the same amount of work as the “good” solution.
Thinking of which… They might not need to add, instead substract a thing. :smiley:
I mean mobs only loose agroo if you not hitting them from said rock. and that’s the IF they could delete… :smiley: You@rock = mob turn back and run home (for animals at least).

Yeah you said climbing is not an option, but still more lifelike than anything which is easy to implement.
I mean yeah sure they could start another pathfinding session to them to search for cover (at least go to a shielded place) but that is more work than just let them climb after you.
And I think you are thinking only in 1on1 situations.
Imagine that 5 thralls right on your butt crawling after you. not so happy now eh? :smiley:
they can run too like animals. and the best part? after you have two or more behaviour pattern you can just make a random selection in each case. And voila some uncertainty happened… More life like? yes. heroes still try to catch you while others run for their life… or grab their bows… or just make you unable to hit them so they hide.

I read stamina but I would highly disagree with that. I mean in the game stamina is mostly for run, dodge, and swing things. imagine a stationery archer unable to move after ~every shot.
but out of breath because when you aim you are holding back the air so that the gun/bow can be hold more stable because no lungs and muscles around it makes moves up and down.
so i think breath would be a better bet, also they have that implemented already and admit it we barely using it for anything (I mean breath) there are not so much water in the game.

and still some stamina could be let go after each shot because you have to “hold” that bow i mean recover it (I just don’t know the proper english word for it) and reload it and using strength/muscle to draw the string again. so yeah to hold it could be breath to “reload and be able to shoot” can be stamina.

the most of your strenght is going into the act when you pull the string back. holding it too requires some strength but not that much.and this second act is more static, than the first one. And that would really lame if we got penalized by not able to move after a shot hold a bit longer than it should be.

I guess. :smiley: :smiley: maybe kinda sort of. but sure all of these would result in a much more pleasurable experience for everybody out there. (including mobs) :smiley:


#11

This surely sounds fun!
I think it depends on how high said rocks are. Climbing takes time, so there is plenty time to shoot even 10 thralls down. (Overexaggerating here.)
Though I have no idea if coding “random” things is hard or not.

I agree. Stamina could work, but your idea is interesting. It would perfectly fit with vitality 10th perk as well. (Doubling that timer.)

All that being said… I dont care about strenght in that matter at all. It’s only needed for those perks.


#12

I had a discussion on one of the servers with another player about this very same concept a couple of weeks ago when I heard about the upcoming changes. Having to hold your breath for the draw would be a great alternative solution to the stamina gambit. Perhaps even a combination of the two. It IS a good idea.


#13