*CROM!* desperately needs an overhaul!

Crom as a religion choice always came off as something to avoid the issues of using the altars. Like if you chose Set, you would NEED to use hearts at it. If you chose Mithra then you would NEED to perform rites. All to maintain their benefits.

By choosing Crom, you wouldn’t need to do any of that. You wouldn’t get benefits, but you wouldn’t need to do anything either.

That idea was in 2017, this is not 2017, this is not the game that was imagined in 2017.

But we do not need to toss that out. Over all the religion system needs an overhaul. We can learn all the religions. Choosing Crom simply means you need to speak to an extra teacher in the Exiled Lands and loot an extra item in Siptah. That’s it.

There needs to be an overhaul so that choosing Crom has a beneficial thing. Because Lorewise, you don’t need to have an Altar to Crom. Ideally in my opinion the benefit to choosing Crom should be that you pick it for extra stats (Granted Strength at Birth), or eschew those stats for the blessings of other gods. With the idea that once you assume another god’s blessing, that’s it, you lose Crom’s benefit forever.

And if we want access to showing our allegiance as it’s described by others, that’s fine. Those banners and decorative things are perfectly fine.

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@DanQuixote what happened to your reply? I was just about to get back to you (sorry about the delay, I have been very busy this week!). And it was so damn good and articulate too! I am literally here to agree and sing your praises. You hit the nail square on the head in so many regards. I hope you can repost/restore it… :pray: pleeease buddy.

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Sorry dude - I convinced myself that it was so long it was derailing the thread and maybe putting off others from posting. Happy to reinstate, so long as you’re happy with it :slight_smile:

See following.

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Reading through this thread (yes, I did just read the whole dang thing…) it strikes me that there seem to be two (interwoven) primary threads of debate - gameplay and lore. I figured I’d add my two cents.

Gameplay - personally I am happy enough with worship of Crom offering no advantage and arguably offering only disadvantage - a little extra hardship is just a little extra to be overcome, further proving our might and will. I’m good with that (and get the impression from this thread that the majority, at least of us that like to roleplay as Crom followers, are comfortable with that element).

But the journey steps have always felt like an issue. If I chose Crom at character creation, I still want the same right to ‘complete’ the game that I would have with any other religion - as Croms_Faithful points out, the Journey is the most solid story aspect we have in the game. I also try to collect all the journals and notes, and complete the steps that the staff explains in the order they are presented - each time that I play the game. These aspects feel integral to the experience in singleplayer - stories are not purely built by player/protagonist choice - external events influence and drive them. On a populated server other players might fill this role, but in singleplayer we have only the game itself to drive our stories and blocking off such a major driving aspect as the journey steps really reduces this effect.

Of course, as others have pointed out, we can always just learn another religion and complete the steps that way - but that is approaching the issue purely from game-mechanics with no consideration of the player’s engagement and choices. The choice of Crom should have meaningful impact - the loss of access to any and all bonuses provided by the other religions being a good example - but it should not have the effect of limiting/removing the journey steps as they are, by their very nature, not ‘in-game’ elements but rather an exterior impetus towards certain ends.

I would be happy for a way to complete these steps without having to betray Crom - simple craftables that count for the game-mechanic of completing the journey step without ‘worshipping’ Crom would be fine. Likewise I would be fine with the journey steps simply auto-completing and we don’t get the xp for them - just another minor hardship to overcome.

Lore - the only lore argument I’ve seen against these ideas that holds any weight is the ‘purist’ approach (which I shall get to). Many of the other lore based arguments seem to focus on false equivalences - such as ‘answers no prayers’ being the same as ‘forbids worship’ - without better arguments supporting these points, I feel they can simply be dismissed as irrelevant. Similarly, claims that these ideas are unsupported in the wider canon are nonsensical as Croms_Faithful has provided numerous examples showing that they are supported.

So to the purists. I can understand the purist approach - the base argument that REH is the only one that can truly say what is or is not Conan is not unreasonable. My personal position is one of preferring REH’s stories, but still enjoying many of the wider canon works as well (deCamp’s writing may irritate at times, but I really enjoy the Robert Jordan books for example). But in other areas, with other stories, I too feel that the original is best/only the original is the true canon (though I tend not to try to impose my personal canon on others), so I can understand the perspective from which some approach this issue.

Nonetheless, I have to disagree with the conclusion that this purist approach leads to - the idea that somehow Conan Exiles is (or should be) purely based on REH and not on the wider canon seems odd. Firstly, because it simply is not that purely based, and the devs have apparently stated that they do not intend it to be. Secondly, because Conan Exiles, by its very existence is itself secondary canon - literally every aspect of the game, its setting, our characters and their actions is outside of what REH wrote. No place like the Exiled Lands ever existed or was even hinted at in any of REH’s stories, nor was there a trace of Giant Kings. (Related note: The Isle of Siptah comes from a deCamp story, not REH, and is further altered from that story - surely therefore no purist will ever play on that map?) There are so many aspects in the game lore already that come from wider canon, or from Funcom’s imagination further adding to that wider canon, it seems crazy to draw the line at allowing Crom followers to complete an in game mechanic by having some decorative items.

But above all, I’d simply challenge any REH purist claiming the Exiled Lands is and should remain ‘pure’ to provide me with the location of the Exiled Lands within the Hyborian Age. A place that the Lemurians travelled west to reach (and therefore settled the eastern side of), that has snowy mountains in the north, that is to the east of Stygia, that the Forgotten Tribe could have ‘marched through a desert to get here’ and yet has a sun that travels from south to north. Simply put, there is no location within the Hyborian Age that can explain this setting and remain true to only what appears in the works of REH.

Beyond that, Crom is not the sole deity of the Cimmerians (Conan himself mentions at least Lir/Llyr, Macha and Nemain), plus what little information we have on Crom is only ever Conan’s interpretation. We simply do not know much about how other Cimmerians might chose to interact with Crom. Conan expresses that Crom does not answer prayers - that seems likely to be common belief - but nowhere does he express that no Cimmerian ever chooses to wear Crom’s symbol, or is smited for doing so.

As for the argument that Crom is ‘supposed to be the choice for not getting involved in religion’ - I’d say firstly that shouldn’t be how Crom is used (for reasons that many have expressed in this thread) - a religion remains a religion, even if the god is aloof (or if there is no god at all, as in the Buddhism example someone offered above) - that is not the same as atheism. Possibly there should be an atheist option as well - but that option will suffer the same issues as Crom currently does, namely the blocked journey steps (and, arguably, people would wind up wanting some decorative non-religious/anti-religious items to display their allegiance to that - humans enjoy symbols displaying our allegiance to one group or another, it’s a part of the essential monkey-brain/tribalism at our core).

Anyway - I could probably continue, but I suspect this post is already very long, so I’ll stop here.

tl:dr - journey steps should be possible to complete while remaining true to Crom. Decorative items should be available for people that want to display their allegiance. I don’t want or need in game advantages from worshipping Crom, nor even a level playing field. And, IMO, arguments based on keeping things ‘pure’ and dismissing the wider canon, fail before they even get started.

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For Crom the overhaul it needs is anyone who picks Crom should be locked to Crom religion, but those who choose Crom also gain maybe +5 strength naturally because of the hardships they endure compared to the other religions
(Croms hardship builds strength)
I think this could open up a bigger play style for people as the croms can’t use religion alters or items but are stronger then your average exile

I always praise Ymir myself but i really want you Crommits to have something equal to the others as well

this way it stays true to Croms lore… and honestly i do expect a crom “worshipper” to be stronger then your average person with they hardships the overcome on their own

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WARNING: wall of text alert.

Woohoo its back! Not on your life. And coming from someone who is infamous for long posts, its not even close to a big deal.

Holy mackrel, that is quite an undertaking there. Im surprised you dont have steam coming out of your eyes and ears! :dizzy_face:most folks just browse the first dozen or so posts, if that.

Exactly. As a Survival game, this rings true. And doubly so for a person who has Crom as their god of choice, a deity who epitomises struggle, hardship and battling our way up against the odds. And best of all, if these changes are only cosmetic (ie-offers no advantage) or are even disadvantageous (eg-harms or are dangerous to the player) then they are not only keeping in step with the lore, but are also offering some much needed additional challenge.

Yeah most of us are open to the idea of some placeables. And given the route that Conan Exiles has gone down with an emphasis on roleplay (which I am fine with for the record), I feel that we should just offer people the toys, then leave it to them as to whether they wish to play with them or not.

Spot on I feel DanQuixote. Its like they made Crom into a way for people to sidestep partaking in the games religion system, but if a person wants to complete the entire story of the game, you are then forced to backflip on that and get involved at a later point. And then on the other hand, for those of us who want to treat Crom’s religion as a religion, and yes that is precisely what it is even if it functions differently from most, we are then forced to betray it in order to complete the Journey Steps. It is like; those who dont want to get involved with it have to, and those who do want to get involved with it can’t! Even purists have said in the thread that they would be fine with having the Steps auto-complete. There are even other ways we could go about having them log as completed. For example, build a campfire or blacksmith bench (Strive &) and kill a human enemy (Slay…). And this now leads me to a relatively recent issue which I have discussed in a separate thread link to this; Shrine Offerings.

As most would now be aware, we can now learn a new religion by finding a religious artifact in-game and using it. Or, we can destroy it as an offering to our existing god. And now once again, Crom worshippers are left with no way to participate but to betray him. To quote myself from the aforementioned thread, could someone please explain to me:

Why must the followers of a savage barbarian god pledge allegiance to another god just to be able to destroy the artifacts of a rival god?

Does this sound weird to anyone else here, or am I just crazy? Its like ‘The Chewbacca Defence’, it just dont make no sense. Could we not even just have an ordinary wooden chopping block or something with an axe or a a hammer stuck into it, and when we deposit offerings from other gods they are destroyed? Or even a ‘destroy artifacts’ tile in the Handcrafting Menu, or the ability to put them through the Dismantling Bench as other people suggested to me?

Glad Im not alone here. And much like Skyrim, anything which is unique, I must posess it. :smiling_imp:

Agree my friend. I dont even have anything further to add.

Once again I agree. And spoken so truthfully and succinctly that I again have nothing further or meaningful to contribute to this which could further enhance the argument.

Exactly, thankyou good sir. This is a matter which I examine in greater depth in the Shrine Offerings thread above. While they seem plausible, perhaps even probable on the surface, the simple fact of the matter is that they are fan narrative and inferences. If anyone wants to directly quote me a lore source (no not a fan made Wikipedia source) to the contrary, I am happy to acknowledge it. Otherwise as you said DanQuixote, it is a false equivalency.

Exactly, and your position is again congruent with my own. I have watched the Conan the Barbarian movie, read the books by Robert Howard, and also the Savage Sword of Conan comics in my youth, and I am utterly unapologetic in saying that I enjoyed each of them immensely.

I feel the same way. And the simple fact of the matter is that it is not, and Funcom has stated plainly from the early stages of the game that it is not. And from a business perspective, this is the most logical and financially sensible approach. While sales and revenue should not be the only factor taken into account of course, they still must be a strong consideration. So must appealing to ALL Conan fans, not just purists, who constitute only fixed percentage of the fanbase. People from all stripes and walks of life should be free enjoy the game and use the materials which they find engaging and relateable. And for many, the Expanded Universe and film are just that.

Correct. I can pull up a lengthy list of in game items from the wider cannon. And the simple fact of the matter is that as it stands right now, there is more lore to support Crom artifacts, placeables and mechanics than there is for a plethora of other items currently implemented in the game.

Another important fact that numerous other members have pointed to time and again over the years is the unique lore behind the ‘gods’ in the Exiled Lands, which Conan himself states in conversation. That the gods found in the Exiled Lands are not the real gods, but weaponised constructs made to serve the will of men. So if this means that if the other ‘gods’ are not the true gods, neither is this ‘Crom’ the true Crom. And as such, this creates amazing potential to add some real and interesting artifacts.

Looks youve hit the nail squarely on the head…again! We get to see some level of further exploration surrounding Crom and Cimmerian religion in other books such as the Age of Conan (the books, not the game), when the character perspective focuses on Kern. The Kull of Atlantis books didnt really offer anything much in this department, as based on my limited Kull reading, the Atlanteans had a different pantheon of gods. And I strongly agree to wearing his symbol or emblazoning it on a camps banner. Again it is not directly expressed anywhere in the books that the Cimmerians did not do this. It is a display of allegiance and a symbol of loyalty. To say that it is tantamount to worship and that Crom will dislike it and then go on to tout that he will destroy someone for doing so is again, a fan driven narrative and catastrophizing. And again, people are most welcome to cite/quote lore which directly refutes this.

@DanQuixote and just like that you hit it right out of the park! This is quite possibly my favourite post in this thread to date, and I am podering marking this one as a ‘Solution’. Dude I could just about quote the drill sergeant from Forrest Gump here on this one!

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Thank you for taking the time to read all of that - I’m glad we seem to agree on so many points :slight_smile:

You raise many good points in response - but I think of all of it, perhaps the key is:

In a single sentence, you have summed up everything that is currently ‘wrong’ with Crom in the game. I can see why they moved to this version from their original concept (as you described in the linked thread), wanting to offer a ‘religion light’ option makes sense. But as the game has evolved, it becomes clear that this does not quite work either. Hopefully Funcom can see that it is time to revisit and re-examine how things now stand.

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Ok Taemien, your up for a reply now my dude. I noticed you have pitched a few ideas on this subject elsewhere before, and Im glad you decided to stop in and add your thoughts here.

Not quite my good fellow. While we can select one of the other religions which are more active or involved, we must remember that participating is not mandatory. We are not obligated to produce shrines, or for that matter consumeables at them. In fact I happen to know one guy who only plays a Set worshipper for role play value and bragging rights. But that decision has always baffled me. And I think I understand what you are getting at. If your god has an active ability, odds are youre going to use it. And then as you said, there are task which must be performed in order to utilise these benefits.

Well said right here.

I strongly concur. Many of the items we produce at shrines have now become either I) too uneconomical to warrant using them II) rendered unattractive by nerfs or III) were just never competitive to begin with. I feel that our choice in religion should be meaningful, and carry more gravity and weight than it currently does. One idea I have always been quite partial to is that while we should be able to learn and use all religions, it would be great if we could assign one as being our primary god, and build that one up to T4 level shrine.

It should be this simple. And I really do not understand the refusal to do just this. As you said one map only requires an additional loot recipe, the other an additional trainer. Thats it. And for the additional trainer, we could add this function to an existing NPC, either Conan or Braga. Or add in a Cimmerian Oracle NPC. I dont understand what they are angling for with this approach?

*That there no means to learn about Crom exist in the world of Hyboria? Then could someone please explain to me how the Cimmerians pass on the knowledge of who and what Crom is to their children and travellers. I mean they dont just beam it into each others heads telepathically.

*You dont learn it because it is a ‘no religion’? Well Im sorry to say that it IS a religion, and the religion of an entire nation at that. Even if it does function differently to others. And I feel that my friend @DanQuixote has already said this best.

To me to try and dress it up as something other than a religion is inaccurate, misrepresenting what Croms religion is, and potentially, trying to bend the facts to fit a narrative. We could argue about it until the cows come home, but the simple fact of the matter is that Crom is a religion.

Its not a bad idea in itself, and I mcertainly not arguing against it. But the tricky end of the Flat Stats Bonus is balancing it, ie- what would be the ideal number? If it is too low, such as say a +3, players would likely avoid it and stick with their polytheism, as trade off woild likely not be worth it in their minds, and we can already achieve a +5 to two attributes at once now through consuming 5 alcoholic drinks. Then if we went up to say a +8 or +10, we may likely start to hear concerns about balance raised by the PvP community. Also, if hypothetically speaking we did ever add the ability to upgrade one god to T4, how would this work for Crom? And finally, this wouldnt resolve the Journey Step dilemna for us. Again I am not arguing against a Stats Bonus, but I suspect that it may be trickier to balance than it seems on the surface.

But the caveat of this is that I recall Funcom previously said that they dont want to see players locked out of religions abilities in this manner. But please god dont ask me to find this quote for you, as it was a good 1-2 years ago now, and I cannot recall where I read it. Instead, perhaps the better approach would be if it were reduced to a lower bonus if they did? Please not that I am not attempting to downplay your idea here, but ratjer just exploring some possibilities and particulars.

Thanks Taemien! I appreciate the sentiment and support on that aspect of it. There is certainly lore for it, ranging from statues to weapons, to sacrificing animals, to the insignia/emblem of Crom himself.

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Stat bonuses are pretty iffy to balance. Even a +5 bonus to a single stat is major. Its potentially 45-50 attribute points saved.

Though I did have an interesting idea. Reaching level 30 gives the first religion journey step if Crom is chosen. Reaching level 60 gives the next one. Representing using the talents Crom granted at ones’ birth.

I haven’t seen anything about T4 religions, don’t really have a comment on that other than the first three tiers of religion in general still need a look at.

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I like this, because (in theory) Crom is giving his gifts to everyone, regardless of if they worship him or not- kind of like how (I think) Zeus was supposed to give everyone a portion of good and bad luck upon birth. If Crom gets anything I feel like the only ‘bonus’ it gives are maybe some interesting smithing recipes.

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Absolutely.

While that would be nice and simple as far as a change goes, Im not sure that these actions would necessarily be reflective of description for respective steps (see below). I feel that the actions need to be at least somewhat reflective of their descriptions. Furthermore, there are actually three Journey Steps which are related to the games religion system. They are:

  • Chapter 3, Step 7: Venerate the Gods
  • Chapter 4, Step 5: Show your Religious Zeal
  • Chapter 10, Step 5: Summon the Avatar of a God

It was in the ‘Shrine Offerings’ thread, the link is in the original post. I thought that you were the fellow who originally raised the idea. My mistake.

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Yeeeaaah!! Im right there with you on some smithing recipes Porsenna. For me anyway, a reskinned Blacksmith Bench which looks the part would be nice to produce them too. :smiling_imp: :metal:

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Thankyou @DanQuixote and @Sairdontis for your support!! Crom’s might to you both.

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And if you recall correctly Lich_Bryan_Skull, I supported your call for more religious weapons and armors, in addition to banners and placeables. Unfortunately, Funcom was not so easily convinced on this one. But the issue of religions having more weight and relevance has been slowly gaining traction and is moving into the foreground. Perhaps in good time our wishes will be realised.

Crom overhaul, make all crom players look like this :wink:image

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And two new thankyous go out to @Xotasun and to @Vys! May your enemies be crushed and driven, and their women lamenting.

Welcome Acillesroar. I think it is time to get you an overdue, and well earned reply.

Can’t say I’m much of a fan this type of whimsical and throw away humor myself. It tends to remind me of other outrageous, flash in the pan style humor such as the mod to transform all dragons in Skyrim into Thomas the Tankengine, and the calls to add Shaggy into Mortal Kombat. In the face of the lore style humor just doesn’t really appeal to me, but to each man his style.

No this however I do like, and quite a bit at that. A flat stats bonus has long been a crowd pleaser. It is sensible, practicle, not likely not hard to implement, and consistent with the lore.

Agree. That your average Crom worshipper is likely to be stronger than the average exile. And the Cimmerians as a people are renowned for their hardiness. But as far the altars go, well…never say never!

Thankyou man of Ymir, your support and patronage is well received, and with my thanks at that!

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In times of great peril us men of Ymir and Crom are the best allies😉

Lol sorry the Davito is from my other post about who should play a new conan so i couldnt resist😉 But we all know Davito would make an outstanding Cromite if he was one lol

Honestly I’d rather see you Cromites get something rather then even my own religion getting new stuff

We haven’t seen an actual dedicated cimmarian dlc theme so maybe we’ll get one eventually with a bunch of crom stuff added in, fingers crossed

One thing i liked a lot was the anvil idea, let cromites smash another religions god token on the anvil, but then, let the cromite become the size of a god to do the god work or let them damage gods as human size after smashing the token of that specific god

Atleast some form of defence from gods are needed for crom

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That is darn cool of you to say Achillesroar, thanks for the kind support. Even withoit my clear cut bias on the matter I would have to say I agree with you. Just because all that Crom loyalists have at this point is the two legendary weapons. God I would love some form of placeable, even just one.

I would love a Cimmerian DLC, Crom goodies included or not. Probably more than any other Hyborian nation at this point. But as you yourself said…fingers crossed!

Definately agree. And Im not trying to be mean to Funcom here, but this is different. Like the inability to complete the Journey Steps with Crom as your chosen god issue, I see it as a hole in the mechanics. Look even if there isnt a dedicated Crom artifact, could someone please help me understand why we cant we as Crom worshippers destroy other religious artifacts…!?

From a lore perspective-> Have Cimmerians never in recorded history destroyed the shrines and temples of rival nations gods while raiding?
From a mechanics perspective-> Are we seriously telling me that we can destroy a T3 shrine of a rival god shooting light into the sky and manned by a T4 priest with a trebuchet, bomb, or even the right weapon. But nothing can destroy an offering?

It boggles the mind.

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Thankyou @Teng, your support is well received and appreciated!!

Anyone else want to make it a nice round 60 votes before I head out?