*CROM!* desperately needs an overhaul!

[Croms_Faithful]

WARNING: wall of text alert.

@DanQuixote

Sorry dude - I convinced myself that it was so long it was derailing the thread and maybe putting off others from posting.

Woohoo its back! Not on your life. And coming from someone who is infamous for long posts, its not even close to a big deal.

@DanQuixote

Reading through this thread (yes, I did just read the whole dang thing…)

Holy mackrel, that is quite an undertaking there. Im surprised you dont have steam coming out of your eyes and ears! most folks just browse the first dozen or so posts, if that.

@DanQuixote

Gameplay - personally I am happy enough with worship of Crom offering no advantage and arguably offering only disadvantage - a little extra hardship is just a little extra to be overcome, further proving our might and will.

Exactly. As a Survival game, this rings true. And doubly so for a person who has Crom as their god of choice, a deity who epitomises struggle, hardship and battling our way up against the odds. And best of all, if these changes are only cosmetic (ie-offers no advantage) or are even disadvantageous (eg-harms or are dangerous to the player) then they are not only keeping in step with the lore, but are also offering some much needed additional challenge.

@DanQuixote

I’m good with that (and get the impression from this thread that the majority, at least of us that like to roleplay as Crom followers, are comfortable with that element).

Yeah most of us are open to the idea of some placeables. And given the route that Conan Exiles has gone down with an emphasis on roleplay (which I am fine with for the record), I feel that we should just offer people the toys, then leave it to them as to whether they wish to play with them or not.

@DanQuixote

If I chose Crom at character creation, I still want the same right to ‘complete’ the game that I would have with any other religion - as Croms_Faithful points out, the Journey is the most solid story aspect we have in the game.

Spot on I feel DanQuixote. Its like they made Crom into a way for people to sidestep partaking in the games religion system, but if a person wants to complete the entire story of the game, you are then forced to backflip on that and get involved at a later point. And then on the other hand, for those of us who want to treat Crom’s religion as a religion, and yes that is precisely what it is even if it functions differently from most, we are then forced to betray it in order to complete the Journey Steps. It is like; those who dont want to get involved with it have to, and those who do want to get involved with it can’t! Even purists have said in the thread that they would be fine with having the Steps auto-complete. There are even other ways we could go about having them log as completed. For example, build a campfire or blacksmith bench (Strive &) and kill a human enemy (Slay…). And this now leads me to a relatively recent issue which I have discussed in a separate thread link to this; Shrine Offerings.

As most would now be aware, we can now learn a new religion by finding a religious artifact in-game and using it. Or, we can destroy it as an offering to our existing god. And now once again, Crom worshippers are left with no way to participate but to betray him. To quote myself from the aforementioned thread, could someone please explain to me:

Why must the followers of a savage barbarian god pledge allegiance to another god just to be able to destroy the artifacts of a rival god?

Does this sound weird to anyone else here, or am I just crazy? Its like ‘The Chewbacca Defence’, it just dont make no sense. Could we not even just have an ordinary wooden chopping block or something with an axe or a a hammer stuck into it, and when we deposit offerings from other gods they are destroyed? Or even a ‘destroy artifacts’ tile in the Handcrafting Menu, or the ability to put them through the Dismantling Bench as other people suggested to me?

@DanQuixote

I also try to collect all the journals and notes, and complete the steps

Glad Im not alone here. And much like Skyrim, anything which is unique, I must posess it.

@DanQuixote

the steps that the staff explains in the order they are presented - each time that I play the game. These aspects feel integral to the experience in singleplayer - stories are not purely built by player/protagonist choice - external events influence and drive them. On a populated server other players might fill this role, but in singleplayer we have only the game itself to drive our stories and blocking off such a major driving aspect as the journey steps really reduces this effect.

Agree my friend. I dont even have anything further to add.

@DanQuixote

The choice of Crom should have meaningful impact - the loss of access to any and all bonuses provided by the other religions being a good example - but it should not have the effect of limiting/removing the journey steps as they are, by their very nature, not ‘in-game’ elements but rather an exterior impetus towards certain ends.

Once again I agree. And spoken so truthfully and succinctly that I again have nothing further or meaningful to contribute to this which could further enhance the argument.

@DanQuixote

I would be happy for a way to complete these steps without having to betray Crom - simple craftables that count for the game-mechanic of completing the journey step

@DanQuixote

Lore - the only lore argument I’ve seen against these ideas that holds any weight is the ‘purist’ approach (which I shall get to). Many of the other lore based arguments seem to focus on false equivalences - such as ‘answers no prayers’ being the same as ‘forbids worship’

Exactly, thankyou good sir. This is a matter which I examine in greater depth in the Shrine Offerings thread above. While they seem plausible, perhaps even probable on the surface, the simple fact of the matter is that they are fan narrative and inferences. If anyone wants to directly quote me a lore source (no not a fan made Wikipedia source) to the contrary, I am happy to acknowledge it. Otherwise as you said DanQuixote, it is a false equivalency.

@DanQuixote

So to the purists. I can understand the purist approach - the base argument that REH is the only one that can truly say what is or is not Conan is not unreasonable. My personal position is one of preferring REH’s stories, but still enjoying many of the wider canon works as well

Exactly, and your position is again congruent with my own. I have watched the Conan the Barbarian movie, read the books by Robert Howard, and also the Savage Sword of Conan comics in my youth, and I am utterly unapologetic in saying that I enjoyed each of them immensely.

@DanQuixote

I have to disagree with the conclusion that this purist approach leads to - the idea that somehow Conan Exiles is (or should be) purely based on REH and not on the wider canon

I feel the same way. And the simple fact of the matter is that it is not, and Funcom has stated plainly from the early stages of the game that it is not. And from a business perspective, this is the most logical and financially sensible approach. While sales and revenue should not be the only factor taken into account of course, they still must be a strong consideration. So must appealing to ALL Conan fans, not just purists, who constitute only fixed percentage of the fanbase. People from all stripes and walks of life should be free enjoy the game and use the materials which they find engaging and relateable. And for many, the Expanded Universe and film are just that.

@DanQuixote

There are so many aspects in the game lore already that come from wider canon, or from Funcom’s imagination further adding to that wider canon, it seems crazy to draw the line at allowing Crom followers to complete an in game mechanic by having some decorative items.

Correct. I can pull up a lengthy list of in game items from the wider cannon. And the simple fact of the matter is that as it stands right now, there is more lore to support Crom artifacts, placeables and mechanics than there is for a plethora of other items currently implemented in the game.

@DanQuixote

But above all, I’d simply challenge any REH purist claiming the Exiled Lands is and should remain ‘pure’ to provide me with the location of the Exiled Lands within the Hyborian Age.

Another important fact that numerous other members have pointed to time and again over the years is the unique lore behind the ‘gods’ in the Exiled Lands, which Conan himself states in conversation. That the gods found in the Exiled Lands are not the real gods, but weaponised constructs made to serve the will of men. So if this means that if the other ‘gods’ are not the true gods, neither is this ‘Crom’ the true Crom. And as such, this creates amazing potential to add some real and interesting artifacts.

@DanQuixote

plus what little information we have on Crom is only ever Conan’s interpretation. We simply do not know much about how other Cimmerians might chose to interact with Crom. Conan expresses that Crom does not answer prayers - that seems likely to be common belief - but nowhere does he express that no Cimmerian ever chooses to wear Crom’s symbol, or is smited for doing so.

Looks youve hit the nail squarely on the head…again! We get to see some level of further exploration surrounding Crom and Cimmerian religion in other books such as the Age of Conan (the books, not the game), when the character perspective focuses on Kern. The Kull of Atlantis books didnt really offer anything much in this department, as based on my limited Kull reading, the Atlanteans had a different pantheon of gods. And I strongly agree to wearing his symbol or emblazoning it on a camps banner. Again it is not directly expressed anywhere in the books that the Cimmerians did not do this. It is a display of allegiance and a symbol of loyalty. To say that it is tantamount to worship and that Crom will dislike it and then go on to tout that he will destroy someone for doing so is again, a fan driven narrative and catastrophizing. And again, people are most welcome to cite/quote lore which directly refutes this.

@DanQuixote

tl:dr - journey steps should be possible to complete while remaining true to Crom. Decorative items should be available for people that want to display their allegiance. I don’t want or need in game advantages from worshipping Crom, nor even a level playing field. And, IMO, arguments based on keeping things ‘pure’ and dismissing the wider canon, fail before they even get started.

@DanQuixote and just like that you hit it right out of the park! This is quite possibly my favourite post in this thread to date, and I am podering marking this one as a ‘Solution’. Dude I could just about quote the drill sergeant from Forrest Gump here on this one!