Discuss: Rules about Walls and Villages

The topic called Land Claim Abuse on Official Servers has been updated recently, to clarify the rules about walls and villages. That section now reads as follows:

Let’s try to use this thread to discuss our interpretations of those rules and our opinions about them, but let’s also try to keep the thread from getting locked, de-listed, or deleted.

I’d like to ask everyone to at least try to argue in good faith and to try to assume that others are also arguing in good faith.

I would also like to ask everyone to avoid certain kinds of content, such as politics, details of specific bans, theories about Funcom’s alleged ulterior motives, or criticism of how Funcom interacts with the community. Those are only some examples of things that are unlikely to add to the discussion about the rules and are very likely to get the thread nuked.

If you see a post and you think that it doesn’t belong in this thread, either because it adds to toxicity or because it’s too far off topic, flag it and move on. There’s nothing wrong with flagging, the feature is there to help the participants moderate the discussion and avoid getting it closed.

One last thing: if you think this thread is pointless, or unnecessary, or anything along those lines, please move on. Nobody forces you to comment on every thread, so if you don’t have anything to contribute to this one, please don’t derail it.

EDIT: I’m including a link to the previous discussion of the “Land Claim Abuse on Official Servers” topic, for reference and continuity.

EDIT #2: If asking nicely doesn’t convince you to avoid derailing the thread, let’s hope this does:

17 Likes

I’ll start with my own interpretation of the “Walls and Villages” section. Bear in mind that I don’t know if that interpretation is correct, so don’t take my word on anything. This is just my own reading of it.

From what I can see, it looks like Funcom doesn’t want PVE players claiming too much territory for RP-only non-functional buildings.

That would mean that taverns, inns, brothels, theaters, shops, and similar builds would probably run afoul of these rules, because their only purpose is to look nice and have players “fill in the blanks” using their imagination, without providing any function supported by existing game mechanics.

Conversely, it sounds like functional builds like public map rooms and arenas wouldn’t be against this particular section of the rules. However, that doesn’t mean that those builds couldn’t get targeted under other rules. For example, if you build your arena on top of the Shattered Springs brimstone nodes, you shouldn’t be surprised if you get smacked with a ban-hammer.

9 Likes

I am really interested in the determination of “appears to be a functional part of a base” as I myself have used diversionary tactics of non functional blacksmiths for example with t1’s as noisemakers to draw raiders.

are we saying in clear terms either the base building must have a functional purpose or that it must not be for land claim purposes to look functional? and what is the determination given its very hard to differentiate intent between the two?.

10 Likes

you see I would agree with map rooms but not with Arenas as people can just pvp outside in the dirt wherever it serves no functional role, would seem to me that it would be easily sold that an arena is taking a “good” base spot and land claim hogging it for no reason.

even if I have enjoyed seeing some very well built arenas (and even one amazing hippodrome on official pvp)

Edit:
That said! on a PVE server with a battleflag it may rightfully viewed different

4 Likes

Also note that a defensive keep wall has function and probably acceptable as long as you don’t get carried away.

1 Like

I think the new language enumerates the spirit of that rule much more clearly.

My interpretation is that:

  • “Village” as an umbrella term includes most non-functional structures. “Functional”, I think, refers to game mechanics specifically and not to things we might consider functional of some meta-objective. Meaning a structure built solely to block a treb or a person building close to your base is in the same category as an RP building - and in violation.

  • “Walls” seem to be an exclusion to this rule so long as they do not violate the TOS on “massive build” or lag grounds. Also, if the wall is being used in a manner like webbing, where the purpose appears to be mainly for land claim or to prevent other players from building, it is in the same category as foundation webbing and a violation.

Despite the tension, I am thankful for the efforts of @Umborls and their team in clarification of the TOS.

—————

I think reasonable map room structures are probably safe, given they serve a mechanical function.

Arenas you could argue are similar. A structure containing a map room is technically the same as a structure containing a battle standard. However:

  1. This doesn’t hold true in PVP servers as the “functional” aspect is moot. It would likely be viewed as an RP building.
  2. Arenas seem less “necessary” to play. Maybe this is just my own reservation, but I’d feel less comfortable arguing with FC for arena rights on PVE than I would map rooms.
3 Likes

Yeah, I don’t take your first meaning there. Indeed, maprooms and etc. are likely a no-no! Reading his paragraph here:

@Umborls wrote:

Some of these structures may even be intended as a benefit to everyone on the server. However, the presence of such structures also lay claim to the surrounding land. We strongly recommend not building any bridges or roads on Official Servers as they are usually considered an abuse of the claim system.”

which to me reads: “Don’t build anything outside your immediate base. You might think you’re preforming a service but we will ban you for it.”, means those things are out!

Especially, most “maprooms” are built up to be “pretty”… as in pretty damn big :stuck_out_tongue:


Yeah, he said as much:

In reading and considering the language used in every description it’s always limiting things to the immediate base area. Go much outside that with anything and if you get reported, you’re a goner…

I should clarify, that I do indeed hope I’m wrong… I like having maprooms here and there. ~=shrug=~

1 Like

Well…if you happen to have storage or a wop or stables/animal pens in that arena… I mean it would be hard to fit any of those things or all in the arena design.

1 Like

I only play on PvP servers but I don’t think public Maprooms would be an issue surely?
They are huge and usually I build my base in areas that just wont fit a maproom inside it so have to place maprooms out in the open nearby but not toooo nearby so they don’t give my base location away.

3 Likes

I would point to this statement in defense of building outside of your base:

I wouldn’t build them into grand structures either, but I think they are okay on the basis of location.

————-

I was thinking about them in their most simple terms for the sake of discussion. A map room/battle standard in a sandstone box if you will. If someone were to build a grand arena that also functioned as a stand-alone base the calculus might be different.

3 Likes

You might be right. But this again is one of those things where we’re guessing too much. Hey @Umborls , could you clarify this for us? If the external structures have function (such as but not limited to, maprooms), are they allowed under the ToS - given of course that everything is within reason. Reasonable meaning: an open covered maproom - maybe a six sided pavilion with gate frames and ceiling tiles… etc. Which is fairly typical.

1 Like

You’ll have to qualify that more. It has to be in an area that will not block the game’s enjoyment and not obviously put to grieve others. That is why I prefer making underwater maprooms personally.

3 Likes

I mean, neither public map rooms nor arenas are strictly necessary. My personal view is that this isn’t about necessity, but rather about whether it has a non-decorative purpose without breaking any other rules.

No matter how much I enjoy seeing the creativity of people who build inns, lighthouses, and ships, none of those builds offers anything beyond decoration. Map rooms do, on all servers. Arenas also do on PVE(-C) servers, if they’re built around a battle standard.

@Ulyssi already pointed out that your interpretation of the rules was specifically addressed in the previous discussion thread. I just want to add that your interpretation stems from taking rules out of one context and applying it to a different one. The words you quoted are in the section about “Bridges, roads, paths” and the full context is as follows:

Unless we get additional clarification from Funcom stating the contrary, then the public map rooms should not be against the rules per se. A map room could still break one of the other rules in the TOS. For (a deliberately contrived) example, if your map room design incorporates walls that enclose the obelisk, this would probably violate rules about blocking content in the game, even if those walls have gates that are always open.

1 Like

I’m primarily discussing the PvE side of this.
PvP bases are their own animal and building a sprawling village is not at all pragmatic. A statement to be certain, perhaps even a challenge, but not exactly sound base design… Unless it is a decoy…
But I have said too much on that matter.

Walls
Given the clarification about Walls, I have no gripes. It seems that a defensive wall that doesn’t significantly extend your land claim or include a massive lawn, it’s fine.
Enough open space for a garden (as in the functional grow aloe, lotus, ect, planters and compost heaps) seems to be compliant as I understand it.
London style gardens rather than Mid-Western U.S. style lawns.

Villages
As I understand it, if each of the buildings is a functional one, in that it has a crafting station in it, with perhaps a modest sleeping quarter for the worker above, it would be fine, so long as it isn’t exploded out so far that it claims a county. Be cozy with the neighbors. Given the large foot print of many advanced crafting stations, those could be moderate baseplate structures.
For taverns, bars, feast halls and the like, they probably would be expected to be modest. But that’s an unrealistic expectation. Brewing and Cooking stations are a thing. As is the thrall pot. Sadly, as we must use a furnace to make bread, and a campfire to cook many ingredients that then go onto the stove to make finished foods (to say nothing of grinders, dryers, and presses) these buildings can be expected to have larger foot prints if they intend to be fully functional. Adding to this, dinner and a movie is important for a healthy exile. Performers remove corruption. Another pragmatic function. Unfortunately, it seems I can no longer put my dancers atop my tables… So they must have at least some dance floor.
Making this building navigable and comprehensive will result in a fairly large footprint.
A Vault housing is going to be cluck off huge, because the Vault is cluck off huge, likewise any Temple or Wheel chambers. Are the chambers necessary? Depends, but in general, yes. In the Exiled Lands weather is a real issue, temperature and sand storms ect…
Then you’ll need a place for your bed (read:spawn point).
Another concern is how close you can place your thralls. If you have a garrison (and a garrison is wise if you expect a purge) you need space to place them and those spaces need to have some opportunities for the garrison to attack invaders. Given how… particular… Thrall archers are, this can involve some creative architecture. At least they don’t jump off walls anymore.
Regardless, in many cases, space can be efficiently used by building up as well, if not moreso, than out. Which is fairly historical for walled city(-state) lay outs. Moreso Middle Ages and Roman than Bronze Age, but still works.
TLDR; The Village is compliant if it isn’t a sprawling urban blight and the buildings are all commercial/residential hybrid rather than just residential is how I understand the matter.

Public Service Structures.
While all building claims land, some structures do so more efficiently. Roads and grand bridges are an issue because they are long claims that offer few public benefits. Let’s be honest, climbing, swimming and riding are fine means of locamotion. Few areas flat enough for roads actually benefit from them in game.
Bridges are another issue. If it’s a bridge high in the jungle connecting two tree house foundations with no pillars or ground based foundation, few are likely to know, much less do anything about it.
But the question of land claim verticality is important. What does this build block, both in terms of resources (and other spawns) as well as building spots? That seems to be the meat of the question.
Basically, is the road/bridge a foundation web with a different name? Even if it was not intended to be so, is it having the same impact?

Actual public service structures, such as Map Rooms don’t have a meandering land claim. They are fairly contained. Building some open to the public structures attached to them there, even a well, seems reasonable. Shelter matters because of previously mentioned issues of weather, temperature, and sandstorms. Having a modest shelter area is a service. Keyword being modest. Perhaps 3x3, possibly with an upper floor, should be plenty. Likewise, the small fountains or wells (not that monster hot tub) may be a good addition to the maproom baseplate.
But even if prima facie the public maproom is allowable, if it’s built in a vexatious location, it ceases to be a public amenity and becomes hostile development.
On this particular I would especially like guidance from our community minders to ensure I’ve got it about right.

6 Likes

It’s easier from my perspective to think of it as “what is NOT a problem” on a public shared server. If we start with PVE, its the player vs the environment, so a base should be functional, be a place to operate out of, and it can be gussied up, but kept to itself. Minimal footprint because the game advances when you leave your base, not just sit in it and pretty it up (as fun as that can be, that’s what having a private server or sp can provide).

For PVP, your base is not an offensive weapon. You can harden it within the spirit of the the build pieces (a door should only have one drawbridge because more is silly) and no, thrones are not appropriate protective walls. Again, minimal footprint as you are sharing the server with what we should all hope to be more players to fight against. The PVP stops when all others give up the field.

So if your base is sprawling out of a desire for a grand home base, that should trigger your inner admin that what you are doing is not okay because it is a shared space. If you want to do what you want and build freely, single player or a private server is for you. Be mindful that you are on a server that is open to new players and they want to experience the game too, without the horizon blotted out by the equivalent of highway billboards. Also highways and decorative placements are not okay because the game is laid out for travel to be difficult at some times and easy at others; preserve the game experience difficulty and you will be fine. Do not build for “convenience”; build for necessity.

5 Likes

@CodeMage, my Captain here and very dear friend, I know that I am one of the persons with the greatest off topic contribution in this forum, so feel free to inform me about it. Other than that once @Croms_Faithful had to do it in one of his posts and I still feel gratitude for asking me so.
Even if you flag me, nothing will change between us, count on it.
So back to the topic…
I will once again say that I am from the very first person’s, visiting from the very beginning in this forum and asking for the situation we have today on officials. So yes, I believe that this is a correct move to do on officials. This game has a great building aspect, for me the best than any survival game I played, but the building aspect is just a part of the game, not even the essence. The greatest part this game has is the power through knowledge. Gaining knowledge everything becomes easy and every action finally is very rewarding, from farming stones to fragments. So the building aspect of the game on officials was standing always as obstacle since it was changing the spawns or sometimes the behavior on dungeons. For every single mob spawn we destroy fixing villages we give a false experience to the new players of the game, since they do not know that in this place bears spawn, or boars, or whatever…
In all my gaming experience the past years playing in officials, I was always extra careful, where to build and what. When I knew that I destroy a mob spawn I was destroying my build, no matter the cost.
OH believe me, I love villages, I idore them actually, but not on officials. I love bridges, castles, I’ ve seen wonders in this game, looking at them with my jaw on the floor, I was OMG and happy, really happy to participate on servers with such builders. Yet some of them was creating huuuuuge lags, some of them was ruining various spawns and changing the farming options of the area. The most tragic was that players, veterans, that knew what they were doing, knew the cost of damage in the server performance, still didn’t do anything about it. Maybe because they had the idea that they own the server? Maybe because nobody from the company ever warn them? Maybe because the company in the beginning pushed them to the building direction? Maybe one million things more? I really don’t know, really.
What I know is that I like the new rules.
I really agree with the new rules of the official servers, regardless the brutal strike of Ignatius “this is it whether you like it or not”.
Closing I will have to clear my self in 2 things.
First, being a massive builder in officials doesn’t make you a bad player, I met a lot of them and I am honored to meet them, I still admire them no matter what.
Second, I feel really bad that officials will not be visited anymore from these players since the building aspect is leading to necessity there.
What I wish?
One day some officials to be done just for builders so any of us can visit and admire their beautiful wonders, from villages to towns.
Now flag me I earn it :rofl::rofl::rofl:.
Love you guys, all of ya

6 Likes

There’s nothing mysterious about it. The explanation is simple. I asked nicely that people don’t derail the thread because they think it’s pointless:

Your post did the opposite of what I asked for. I guess other people read what I wrote there, and they also read this part:

Also, let me point out a forum feature you might have missed:
image

Also, if mods or community managers wanted to moderate this thread, they could make your post vanish silently without flagging it. We’ve all seen it happen, both to individual posts and to whole threads, even private message threads.

Just because people here don’t think your post belongs in this thread doesn’t mean there’s a conspiracy theory that aims to keep you silent. Feel free to actually contribute to the discussion if you want to.

EDIT: I have no interest in prolonging the discussion with you and helping you derail this topic further, so I’ll put my final thoughts here. It only takes 2 or 3 flags to hide a post, so there’s no mass flagging conspiracy going on. Take a hint and stop trying to derail the topic, please. And no, “you’re beating a dead horse” is not a contribution when I politely asked that people who believe the topic is pointless should abstain from derailing it. So you can either respect that or you can keep testing whether people on the thread agree that you should respect it.

4 Likes

…then we may never know for sure.

I tend to take the entire document as context and not just one sentence or one part of one sentence. When they say or show you can’t have 11 lights in your front yard (which have a function!!), or 8 lights on sunken pillars along the pathway in front of your base (which have a function!), and when they demonstrate for the sake of context the banning of people for having functional buildings (plural) in different areas of the map (which had a function) - then I have to consider that part of the whole thing as a single consideration. Not just the few words in the partial sentence. And I kind of hate to say it but not even the words in a paragraph - until such time as the language becomes precise and definite - omitting words and phrases like should, shouldn’t, I can’t see where, possibly, might, may, recommend, can often, too far, a large area, and so on… because often enough, their words aren’t matching their actions. Heck, even some of their own supplied images don’t match up. :stuck_out_tongue:

So yeah, we’re both wanting the same things here - an understanding of the rules. But without specific clarification on specifically maprooms, containing structure sizes, numbers of them per person, and so on there’s just no way I’m willing to say it’s fine when people are being banned for basically those same things - just not a specific case where maprooms were mentioned as the reason for the bans.

I mean you are of course free to assume that - but I wouldn’t! And if you’re reading this and you’re the type of person who cares a lot about your stuff, or about the humility of being banned from an online game then I wouldn’t even take any suggestions about any of them meanings from any of the people in this forum about maprooms being OK to place around the map, or anything else pertaining to the rules, the ToS, etc. without the specific comments from FC. “Yes/No, this specific item in this specific quantity, at this specific size, is allowed this specific distance outside of your immediate base.” etc…

As with most regulations, It depends…I’m starting to understand why I don’t have a problem and most everyone else’s does. My job deals with quality assurance and regulatory affairs. I’m used to regulations and my experiences with them has always been that intent trump letter of the law…every single time in every single industry I worked in. Sure there were some investigators that tried to nail me with the letter of the law observations but in my response to address, I made sure I fixed our systems to the intent of the regulation, which infuriated these to the letter investigators because their superiors supported my way over this letter of the law method that fails the business more than not.

So what’s the intent of the ToS? Is it not a guidance to help players play together in a joint public server? Does anyone on here really think that FC is counting each and every block or that the length of this wall is 251 vs 250? A maproom building can be both allowed and not allowed even if it’s identical because of placement. I said this before, your building should show in it’s design that you take other players into consideration. Building is an art form and art has the ability to express ideas and concepts. This is the concept they are requesting you to show…respect to others playing.

2 Likes

We started the conversation in another thread, let’s continue it here…
Let’s all start from zero.
Let’s say that we have nothing and we participate in a new server ok…
These new rules are placing mandatory that you can own just one build, in just one area, then the most reasonable thing is to find a way how to proceed playing, “after you question your self, do I want to play under these rules and you gained a positive answer”, well this sounded weard but forgive my English once more, thank you.
What are your benefits in this new start?
First, you know the game and it knows you back, that means you can find solution to everything if you want to.
You know how to communicate with other members of the server and organize to gift map rooms to players that decided to build close to one, if they do not have materials to build one.
You have the option, since you have clan members, to split the clan and cover the Map room issue this server has. We all know that the greatest reason for clans in pve is the refresh decay reasons, no other.

We played all this time giving map rooms to others, giving corruption cleanse to others, giving thralls to others, mostly helping in anyway the others and the gratitude we gained was not equal to the effort. Not that we did it to listen a thank you, we did it because we like it and we didn’t expect nothing back. @anon83039162, lord gangsta and me were preserving map rooms for every new player in the server and helped them the best we could and sometimes we were listening words too, like we had to help and we didn’t do it right. Or in other cases toxic clans they were building all the map, placing berserkers to every single boss and fixing 10 bases with 300 pets each just because they had a 6 person clan, or to say better, just because they could.

Please I beg you to see with the experienced eyes you have all these years and help us, the players not Funcom, to find solutions and play to official servers with the new rules. We know why we play official, we know why we want to keep playing official, we have the experience, let’s make it work then.
Yelling to Funcom for what they decided to do in their servers will lead to nowhere.

We have the knowledge, all together we can make it work again. @erjoh already started this course by giving me an excellent hint, keep it coming.

1 Like